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So, I'm still thinking, and still shaking. Here's what I've got so far.

CCS - power fist, standard, lascannon

Stormtroopers (5) - 2x meltas
Stormtroopers (5) - 2x meltas

PCS - Chenkov, lascannon
PIS - meltagun, lascannon
PIS - meltagun, lascannon
Conscripts (20) - Send in the Next Wave!

PCS - lascannon
PIS - meltagun, lascannon
PIS - meltagun, lascannon

Punisher - multimeltas, lascannon
Punisher - multimeltas, lascannon

... which gives me 115. I lose some conscripts and I lose my flamer stormies. I feel bad dropping them, but the more I think about it, the more I think I have to. With the addition of the punisher, I've got stuff to weed camo cloak scouts out of cover, and I didn't have much success with my 5-man flamer stormie squads when I ran them, and I don't have the points to make them full-sized.

Anyways, what to replace them with?

5-man stormies with 2x melta - Probably the most obvious analogue as it's still stormies. Melta gives more face beating.

2x lascannon scout sentinel squad - not quite as killy as the stormies, but, in a way, I'm starting to see these guys are more flexible, what with being able to start on the board, and having better consistency with their long-range weapons.

Straken with officer of the fleet - This puts the chop back in my choppy CCS without the priest. Plus, I'd have some extra buffs, and the officer himself would certainly be more survivable. The OoTF is there to screw with fliers. With like half my points starting in reserves, I was reluctant to include him but now that that's not true, I might as well just help keep stuff off the board.

NORK! - Interestingly he gives me a lot of what the above does. A more choppy CCS, a more durable officer, and some anti-flier nuisanceness. On top of this, the reason I'd seriously consider him is because of challenges. Not only is he much more survivable against challenges, but he also gets the free D6 S6 wounds when he dies, making him comically able to take something down with him.

Some thing else - as per last time.

I think you will still have problems getting to objectives across the other side of the table, which means you need to be able to clear those objective with firepower if need be.

If you could find the extra points I think this list would benefit from adding a Colossus. This would be the best way to clear your opponents off their objectives. Its also useful for being able to snipe characters and work with night fighting on. It also adds a blast to you army which makes people spread out, making it harder to get all their toys in useful cover.

Other than that maybe putting Kell in would give your CSS back their choppy and allow you to order your conscripts around properly.

Creed. Tactical genius
So you can outflank those two punishers (if you squadron them)
Will definitely make you opponents shout "CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!" While shaking there fist

Leaves you with 25 points to add some bling to your general.

Or get Pask for one of you punishers and marbo for some fun times

I hope you don't play against a lot of valkeries or stormravens because you don't seem to have anything to take them out besides the lascannons who even with orders arnt really effective

Marbo would be pretty nice for a disruption effect and maybe a sentinel. Otherwise, I would go with straken with an OOF. If you took straken, could you drop the banner as you get the 12" fearless bubble?

Hmm, you know, another thing I could do is drop the punishers down to exterminators. Then I'd have a melta-las exterminator, a melta-las exterminator, and a las exterminator. I'd get an extra lascannon and an extra AV14 hull, which would make me feel better, but it would also downgrade 20 S5 hits to 9 S7 hits, which I don't know if I like enough to actually try this.

Exterminators are twin-linked though.
More likely to hit and gives you a good chance vs flyers.

Punishers are more badass though, and we all know that usefulness is no substitute for badassness on the battle field!

For a foot infantry list, your scoring models looks dangrously low, and with meltas and lascannons, your guys really have no direction either they stay back and pop off 6 lascannons a turn, and get abused by torrent fire, which you dont have the bodies to sustain, or run at the enemy and suffer a worse fate.

You have very little in the way of far range meq/ teq killing firepower, lots of spread out roles, suicide storms, base hunkering infantry squads and two pieces of anti infantry armor

I would personally start my army of infantry by making two blobs of guard with 5 autocannons each, with a PCS with Autos

As for fliers, my strategy is still going to be to ignore them. Plus, against tougher birds, I've got 4 MMs and 2 lascannons on just the tanks. 6 shots should get me one hit, which is rather likely to just blow whatever I'm shooting at outright. Not to mention the infantry stuff.

As for the exterminator being twin-linked, I already counted that. Two punishers get twice as many hits on fliers as three exterminators. Of course, the exterminators still do more damage, but still. Really, it's a matter of if I want to have the ability to hurt AV12 a little more, or if I want to hurt infantry of all types more. Given that I'm loosing hellguns, I've got to say the latter.

As for scoring models, I'd point you to the respawning conscripts. As for the loadout of the PISs, I haven't found a way to advance them without just getting horribly butchered no matter what guns I give them, so they might as well have nice guns. I'm hoping that with a little bit more up-front firepower that I'll have more of a chance for getting my goobers out of their deployment zone. Nothing makes the battlefield safer like enemy casualties.

As for long-range anti-MEQ, I don't see why I need it, really, given that I've got so much going on at shorter ranges. I've still got nearly 100 infantry models, which gives me a lot of anti-infantry firepower, and then we consider the fact that I still have some hellguns, and the screw you cannons on the punishers.

As for two large autocannon blobs, I don't see why I'd bother. Autocannons are crappy weapons. I'd only bother with them on exterminators as a way of getting cheaper lascannons and multimelta sponsons. Plus, it doesn't address the bigger issues you were talking about, like having more scoring models (because more doesn't beat respawning), and having more anti-MEq, much less anti-MC or anti-vehicle, of which I could always use more.

I don't think I was ever informed that autocannons where bad weapons? Id much rather have 2 shots at 7 with bs3 than 1 shot that costs twice as many points

You have to look at the weapon holistically. You may get half the shots with a lascannon, but a lascannon on average does more than twice as much damage per shot. A lascannon may cost twice as much as an autocannon, but not only is it better than autocannons at things that autocannons are good at, but they're much, much better against a wide swath of things that the autocannon is terrible against.

If all I wanted was anti-AV 10, then I'd put more autocannons in, but against anything that's worth shooting either of them at, the lascannon is better, despite its fewer shots and higher price.

 Ailaros wrote:
Autocannons are crappy weapons.

What? They really aren't, as every half-experienced Guard player knows...

Conscripts are awful. Don't bother. Sitnw is fun, but not remotely competitive.
Stormies with flamers are a waste of BS. Dont feel bad about not taking them.

If all I wanted was anti-AV 10, then I'd put more autocannons in, but against anything that's worth shooting either of them at, the lascannon is better, despite its fewer shots and higher price.

Except almost everything in the eldar/DE codex, or anything with a 4+ armour save or Av10-12. Which is quite a lot of the 40k units.
Saturation of AC will deal with most things for cheap. Even MEQ.

Welcome to 6th edition.

Times have changed.

This appears to be a rather sound list. While it might not be "competitive", it is certainly flexible. In my mind, flexibility always outshines competitiveness. It'd be interesting to see how this army performs.

I am inclined to agree with Aileros when it comes to autocannons in 6th ed.

Nearly all my games in 6th ed my ACs have performed very poorly. They pitter patter off against most armour and when trying to use them against MEQ they typically save it.

Its one of those weapons that tries do everthing to an average degree.

Id rather instead kit out my squads for specific purposes, Lascannon and Melta for AT and Heavy bolter and flamer for AI.

So far i have found this tactic to be very effective because as a pure foot Guard player I cannot afford to have my squads have ineffective shooting. I cant reply on large blasts to sort my enemies out!

Autocannons are fantastic against marines actually. You must've been unlucky.

Seriously if you start using expensive weapons on your guard squads you will not be winning many games. Plasma is absolutely awful and a prime example. Those people that are wetting themselves about the plasma buffs don't seem to realise that they still kill guardsmen equally as well as they used to. Bye bye 20pts if you roll a '1', which you eventually will. You just suicided the equivalent of a marine in points cost and achieved nothing.
You will learn this as time goes on and you play more games under 6th ed. Trust me.

Lascannons are fine though as long as you keep them alive and use the rule of moderation. After all BS3 kind of negates there long range potency if they fething miss all the time. Autocannons kind of make up with that with 2 shots. They are definitely great at av10 even upto av12 if you achieve saturation, along with anti-horde duties and are death incarnate to pansie eldar.

When it comes to AC's versus LC's I find that I put AC's in normal Infantry Squads with BS3 because I can spam them and with BS3 I can shoot more shots.

However, anything with BS4, or anything that is defending behind anything, gets a LC.

Auto-Cannons really aren't the total POS people are making them out to be in 6th, people just are stuck in this "AC's are the best things ever and kill everything" mood that 5th Edition gave us. Their role has changed, and they are gonna suck if we keep using them and expecting them to do what we used to expect them to do. Las-Cannons, however, have not really changed and the rules have actually kinda changed in their favor as opposed to AC's.

I would go for the exterminators for the Ap4 and you will also have more armor for your opponent to kill. If you use the Punishers you also have to be a lot closer as its only 24 in range and with tthe exterminators you can start firing at your opponent at 48in and once they get close you got those multi meltas to help. Those shots with the lascannons and multimeltas will also kill meq easier than just a couple of hits with the punishers.

 washout77 wrote:
When it comes to AC's versus LC's I find that I put AC's in normal Infantry Squads with BS3 because I can spam them and with BS3 I can shoot more shots.

However, anything with BS4, or anything that is defending behind anything, gets a LC.

Auto-Cannons really aren't the total POS people are making them out to be in 6th, people just are stuck in this "AC's are the best things ever and kill everything" mood that 5th Edition gave us. Their role has changed, and they are gonna suck if we keep using them and expecting them to do what we used to expect them to do. Las-Cannons, however, have not really changed and the rules have actually kinda changed in their favor as opposed to AC's.

Agree with the BS4 and LC.

However, I have found that a lot of people are claiming "autocannons roles have changed in 6th" or words to that effect, yet they cannot seem to explain how or why. It's always statements like "They have just changed" with little or no explanation, which doesn't tell us anything.

I think a lack of autocannons means your vulnerable to MCs. Yeah your punisher could do something, but against a tyranid horde theres other preferable targets. Lascannons will deal to them but thats alot of lascannon shots.

Conscripts arent that useful and if you are spamming them with send in the next wave, you need alot more that 20 to justify 75pts.

Unsure of the power fist, lascannon combo in the CCS. They're both for a very different type of squad. Probably drop the fist in it. For your Chenkov PCS, if you intend on running them could fit them out with flamers for a cheap counter charge unit to go with the stubborn bubble supporting the conscripts. Despite the punishers, still feel that the list is vulnerable to close combat hordes or khorne berserkers

I think Nork is way too pricey for what he does.

 FifteenHours wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
When it comes to AC's versus LC's I find that I put AC's in normal Infantry Squads with BS3 because I can spam them and with BS3 I can shoot more shots.

However, anything with BS4, or anything that is defending behind anything, gets a LC.

Auto-Cannons really aren't the total POS people are making them out to be in 6th, people just are stuck in this "AC's are the best things ever and kill everything" mood that 5th Edition gave us. Their role has changed, and they are gonna suck if we keep using them and expecting them to do what we used to expect them to do. Las-Cannons, however, have not really changed and the rules have actually kinda changed in their favor as opposed to AC's.

Agree with the BS4 and LC.

However, I have found that a lot of people are claiming "autocannons roles have changed in 6th" or words to that effect, yet they cannot seem to explain how or why. It's always statements like "They have just changed" with little or no explanation, which doesn't tell us anything.

I also find that. I feel personally AC's fit into the Anti-MC role more than ever right now.

I also think that it needs a bit more time. Really, there is a lot of lists to sort through. Most people just haven't found out WHERE they fit, but they just know they don't fit where they did before. As an example, you go to buy new shoes. You aren't sure what size you are now until you try multiple things on, but you know you aren't the size you were before.


I agree with Rahxephon for the most part. Conscripts can be useful, really, but to maximize effect you need a good 40-50 with SITNW. That's 50 respawning scoring troops. Put them on an objective in cover and they will be around for a while.

And yep, specialize the CCS a bit more. While the Power Fist is a strong choice, and the LC is a strong choice, together they are less than. I feel like the Melta-Lascannon combos everywhere can work but....the long distance mixed with the short ranged Melta is kinda sure to waste a shot at a long range shooting match. I feel though that this list is gonna want to get up close though. The amount of Melta and close up options tells me that. Am I correct?