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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Wasn't the original complaint because there was video evidence of people's feeling being hurt? Also, threatening someone, and then being jailed for it, is effectively the same thing as being sent to jail for hurt feelings. He didn't ACTUALLY strangle the kid.

That's probably true, on some alternate plane of existence. Here in Reality A, though, there's a vast gulf between, "I'm going to knife you," and, "You smell funny."

Both result in hurt feelings, which we've established you can go to jail for in the US.

No, we haven't?

There's a huge difference between "communicating a threat" and "making fun of someone".

I'm inclined to think you're just trolling though.

Actually, no. I'm holding up a mirror to the idiotic black-and-white attitude of some posters. My point is that 'free speech' is filled with grey areas. Being threatened with violence without violence being meted out to you is basically just hurt feelings. It's just words. That's why I take issue with idiots who make ignorant 'hurr, you can get jail for hurt feelings in the UK'-type statements; basically, because you can in the USA too. Which is fine, of course, because it's a spectrum, from some nutter saying that they're going to cut out your children's eyes and rape your entire family, to calling someone a poopy-head. Finding a balance is tricky. Civilised countries struggle with it because they actually care about getting it right.

 Albatross wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Wasn't the original complaint because there was video evidence of people's feeling being hurt? Also, threatening someone, and then being jailed for it, is effectively the same thing as being sent to jail for hurt feelings. He didn't ACTUALLY strangle the kid.

That's probably true, on some alternate plane of existence. Here in Reality A, though, there's a vast gulf between, "I'm going to knife you," and, "You smell funny."

Both result in hurt feelings, which we've established you can go to jail for in the US.

No, we haven't?

There's a huge difference between "communicating a threat" and "making fun of someone".

I'm inclined to think you're just trolling though.

Actually, no. My point is that 'free speech' is filled with grey areas. Being threatened with violence without violence being meted out to you is basically just hurt feelings. It's just words. That's why I take issue with idiots who make ignorant 'hurr, you can get jail for hurt feelings in the UK'-type statements; basically, because you can in the USA too. Which is fine, of course, because it's a spectrum, from some nutter saying that they're going to cut out your children's eyes and rape your entire family, to calling someone a poopy-head. Finding a balance is tricky. Civilised countries struggle with it because they actually care about getting it right.

Your "point" is badly worded and damages your argument.

And no, this isn't a "grey area of free speech". There's a whole doctrine regarding communicating threats or attempting to incite a physical altercation.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Psychological abuse is no joke. My family has been personally effected by it.

My nephew's father was highly abusive psychologically. Almost drove them to suicide before my sister finally got full custody and her new husband adopted them. Now its all better by dang it was the worst thing on earth to go through.

From a parent, it's a totally different situation. However, I still don't believe in the concept. While some people are very severely affected, I suspect that a lot of claims are frivolously made in order to make it seem as though one has a more serious position, which is insulting to people who truly suffered. I don't mean to degrade your situation by any means. The situation here isn't a case of abuse coming from a parent.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

"Psychologicial child abuse"?

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensitive to children who have actually suffered real abuse, "Psychological abuse;" give me a fething break! I grew up in a real world situation where I had to deal with people who were donkeycaves!

I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

Because everyone knows that it's only abuse if there are physical marks.

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensetive who have actually suffered being bullied.
At what point did he say that they should be arrested?

And how is it insulting to children who have suffered "real" abuse? An adult mocks you for being ill and threatens to kill you with a chain, and you don't think that warrants being described as psychological abuse?

Also, this isn't a case of "being made fun of", it's a case of haveing a young girl's life threatened by a guy four times her age.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Psychological abuse is no joke. My family has been personally effected by it.

My nephew's father was highly abusive psychologically. Almost drove them to suicide before my sister finally got full custody and her new husband adopted them. Now its all better by dang it was the worst thing on earth to go through.

From a parent, it's a totally different situation. However, I still don't believe in the concept. While some people are very severely affected, I suspect that a lot of claims are frivolously made in order to make it seem as though one has a more serious position, which is insulting to people who truly suffered. I don't mean to degrade your situation by any means. The situation here isn't a case of abuse coming from a parent.

You don't have to believe in it for it to be real. It's not Peter Pan's ability to fly.

Psychological abuse is a very real thing, and it is not limited to parents heaping it upon their own children. There's a reason that "cyberbullying" is becoming something which schools and other organizations are trying to prevent children from using upon other children.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Wasn't the original complaint because there was video evidence of people's feeling being hurt? Also, threatening someone, and then being jailed for it, is effectively the same thing as being sent to jail for hurt feelings. He didn't ACTUALLY strangle the kid.

That's probably true, on some alternate plane of existence. Here in Reality A, though, there's a vast gulf between, "I'm going to knife you," and, "You smell funny."

Both result in hurt feelings, which we've established you can go to jail for in the US.

No, we haven't?

There's a huge difference between "communicating a threat" and "making fun of someone".

I'm inclined to think you're just trolling though.

Actually, no. My point is that 'free speech' is filled with grey areas. Being threatened with violence without violence being meted out to you is basically just hurt feelings. It's just words. That's why I take issue with idiots who make ignorant 'hurr, you can get jail for hurt feelings in the UK'-type statements; basically, because you can in the USA too. Which is fine, of course, because it's a spectrum, from some nutter saying that they're going to cut out your children's eyes and rape your entire family, to calling someone a poopy-head. Finding a balance is tricky. Civilised countries struggle with it because they actually care about getting it right.

Your "point" is badly worded and damages your argument.

And no, this isn't a "grey area of free speech". There's a whole doctrine regarding communicating threats or attempting to incite a physical altercation.

Listen, I know you want to be a cop (or something, I forget the exact details), but acting like those are black-and-white issues won't help you in that endeavour. 'Incitement to physical violence' is pretty open to interpretation. And even if it wasn't, this is a purely semantic argument. Fear of physical injury can be understood as 'hurt feelings'. You suffer no physical injury, just mental distress. We valorise mental distress according to its causes, but it amounts to the same basic thing. It's just a question of levels.

Saying it's a "grey area of free speech" does not make it a black and white issue.

Communicating threats or "attempting to incite a physical altercation"(aka: "fighting words") is pretty clear-cut.

 Albatross wrote:

Which is fine, of course, because it's a spectrum, from some nutter saying that they're going to cut out your children's eyes and rape your entire family, to calling someone a poopy-head. Finding a balance is tricky. Civilised countries struggle with it because they actually care about getting it right.

Those are both the same thing, someone saying stupid gak to get a rise out of you. Now if he said that and you had a real and profound fear that he "will" do those things then that is not covered by Freedom of Speech.

Some states also define assault as an attempt to menace (or actual menacing) by placing another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury.

 Goliath wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

"Psychologicial child abuse"?

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensitive to children who have actually suffered real abuse, "Psychological abuse;" give me a fething break! I grew up in a real world situation where I had to deal with people who were donkeycaves!

I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

Because everyone knows that it's only abuse if there are physical marks.

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensetive who have actually suffered being bullied.
At what point did he say that they should be arrested?

And how is it insulting to children who have suffered "real" abuse? An adult mocks you for being ill and threatens to kill you with a chain, and you don't think that warrants being described as psychological abuse?

Also, this isn't a case of "being made fun of", it's a case of haveing a young girl's life threatened by a guy four times her age.

I have been bullied. I'm not so nuts as to think that it's "abuse." I used to have fairly severe Asperger's Syndrome, which understandably made me stand out at times. One kid kept calling me slowed all the time, constantly. I returned the favor by making fun of something probably even more upsetting. When it came to the attention of the principal, I believe his dad even took my side, as evidenced by the fact that he whined to his friends about how his dad grounded him for calling me slowed.

Also, I wasn't aware at that time that the father in this situation made threats. All I saw was that he was arrested for making fun of someone.

Great, now I'm ashamed of Ohio.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

"Psychologicial child abuse"?

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensitive to children who have actually suffered real abuse, "Psychological abuse;" give me a fething break! I grew up in a real world situation where I had to deal with people who were donkeycaves!

I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

Because everyone knows that it's only abuse if there are physical marks.

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensetive who have actually suffered being bullied.
At what point did he say that they should be arrested?

And how is it insulting to children who have suffered "real" abuse? An adult mocks you for being ill and threatens to kill you with a chain, and you don't think that warrants being described as psychological abuse?

Also, this isn't a case of "being made fun of", it's a case of haveing a young girl's life threatened by a guy four times her age.

I have been bullied. I'm not so nuts as to think that it's "abuse." I used to have fairly severe Asperger's Syndrome, which understandably made me stand out at times. One kid kept calling me slowed all the time, constantly. I returned the favor by making fun of something probably even more upsetting. When it came to the attention of the principal, I believe his dad even took my side, as evidenced by the fact that he whined to his friends about how his dad grounded him for calling me slowed.
,
Also, I wasn't aware at that time that the father in this situation made threats. All I saw was that he was arrested for making fun of someone.

So have I, which wasn't the point, but the fact that you were able to turn it around and insult them back, apparently quite effectively, doesn't mean that everyone else is able to do so.
Also, you don't really "Used to have Aspergers" (at least according to the people who were treating me) you just train yourself to deal with it the point that you don't act like an utter dick to everyone, and can respond to a situation without doing something, meant in good faith, that can be twisted to make the situation worse.

 Albatross wrote:
Actually, no. I'm holding up a mirror to the idiotic black-and-white attitude of some posters. My point is that 'free speech' is filled with grey areas. Being threatened with violence without violence being meted out to you is basically just hurt feelings. It's just words. That's why I take issue with idiots who make ignorant 'hurr, you can get jail for hurt feelings in the UK'-type statements; basically, because you can in the USA too. Which is fine, of course, because it's a spectrum, from some nutter saying that they're going to cut out your children's eyes and rape your entire family, to calling someone a poopy-head. Finding a balance is tricky. Civilised countries struggle with it because they actually care about getting it right.

I like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

I have been bullied. I'm not so nuts as to think that it's "abuse." .

This I do not like.

What if you had been bullied by Nazis? I bet that'd be abuse.

 Goliath wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

"Psychologicial child abuse"?

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensitive to children who have actually suffered real abuse, "Psychological abuse;" give me a fething break! I grew up in a real world situation where I had to deal with people who were donkeycaves!

I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

Because everyone knows that it's only abuse if there are physical marks.

Are you kidding? I really hope you are; either way, that comment is highly insensetive who have actually suffered being bullied.
At what point did he say that they should be arrested?

And how is it insulting to children who have suffered "real" abuse? An adult mocks you for being ill and threatens to kill you with a chain, and you don't think that warrants being described as psychological abuse?

Also, this isn't a case of "being made fun of", it's a case of haveing a young girl's life threatened by a guy four times her age.

I have been bullied. I'm not so nuts as to think that it's "abuse." I used to have fairly severe Asperger's Syndrome, which understandably made me stand out at times. One kid kept calling me slowed all the time, constantly. I returned the favor by making fun of something probably even more upsetting. When it came to the attention of the principal, I believe his dad even took my side, as evidenced by the fact that he whined to his friends about how his dad grounded him for calling me slowed.
,
Also, I wasn't aware at that time that the father in this situation made threats. All I saw was that he was arrested for making fun of someone.

So have I, which wasn't the point, but the fact that you were able to turn it around and insult them back, apparently quite effectively, doesn't mean that everyone else is able to do so.
Also, you don't really "Used to have Aspergers" (at least according to the people who were treating me) you just train yourself to deal with it the point that you don't act like an utter dick to everyone, and can respond to a situation without doing something, meant in good faith, that can be twisted to make the situation worse.

In rare cases, people can develop to the point where they don't qualify for the diagnosis. I'm not sure if I qualify for that, but I'd say it's borderline. In my case I mostly just learned through observation what was appropriate at what wasn't. There was also a lot of growing up and calming down. While not everyone can't make a good comeback, most people can. Also, Cerebral Palsy doesn't affect intelligence. Anyway, just because someone can't make a comeback doesn't mean it's "psychological abuse."

 Cheesecat wrote:
Actually there was similar thread a few months where the story was set in the UK and that's exactly what happened, American Dakkanauts started bashing the UK about how they have no free speech (which is untrue btw).

That's exactly what I was thinking of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
And there are plenty of Americans on here saying this is BS or there is a lot more to the story that we don't know for this sentence to be handed down, so....

And that's the exact point. The reaction to a roughly similar case in their own country led people to more fully into the story, see if there was more at play than just what the headline showed. And it led others to say 'that particular case is wrong but we still have this general principle" or words to that effect.

And yet when cases from the UK were broadcast, they were happy to just declare that the UK has no freedom of speach.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's a huge difference between "communicating a threat" and "making fun of someone".

I'm inclined to think you're just trolling though.

No, he's just pointing out that the response to an earlier thread by some Americans, in which they summarised events as broadly and ludicrously as 'people got jail time for making fun of someone' is quite an interesting contrast to this thread.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Psychological abuse is no joke. My family has been personally effected by it.

My nephew's father was highly abusive psychologically. Almost drove them to suicide before my sister finally got full custody and her new husband adopted them. Now its all better by dang it was the worst thing on earth to go through.

From a parent, it's a totally different situation. However, I still don't believe in the concept. While some people are very severely affected, I suspect that a lot of claims are frivolously made in order to make it seem as though one has a more serious position, which is insulting to people who truly suffered. I don't mean to degrade your situation by any means. The situation here isn't a case of abuse coming from a parent.

You don't have to believe in it for it to be real. It's not Peter Pan's ability to fly.

Psychological abuse is a very real thing, and it is not limited to parents heaping it upon their own children. There's a reason that "cyberbullying" is becoming something which schools and other organizations are trying to prevent children from using upon other children.

I am forced to agree with Kanluwen completely on this one.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I suppose maybe you think that everyone who made fun of me in middle school for being Autistic should be arrested? No, that would ridiculous! Someone should find something sensitive about this guy and viciously make fun of it. When kiddies made fun of me, I returned the favor. Far better than locking people up for making fun of people. At that point there would have been no point in fighting WWII.

So your brilliant point is that having laws that prevent verbal abuse of children makes us a fascist state?

He never fails to impress.

People shouldn't be arrested for hurting the feelings of others. Yeah, the guy was a jerkass. Maybe, instead of arresting him, people can just do to him what he did to others - be a jerkass.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

You seem to have anger issues.

_Tim?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

So your brilliant point is that having laws that prevent verbal abuse of children makes us a fascist state?

As unpopular as it may be to say so, having a few knocks around the head when you're a kid is no bad thing imo. But being disabled makes it kind of...different.

Did he do it to her face or not? There's a fething big difference between taking the piss out of someone after they've passed by, and laughing about it in their face. A very big difference.

 LoneLictor wrote:
People shouldn't be arrested for hurting the feelings of others. Yeah, the guy was a jerkass. Maybe, instead of arresting him, people can just do to him what he did to others - be a jerkass.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

So your brilliant point is that having laws that prevent verbal abuse of children makes us a fascist state?

As unpopular as it may be to say so, having a few knocks around the head when you're a kid is no bad thing imo. But being disabled makes it kind of...different.

Did he do it to her face or not? There's a fething big difference between taking the piss out of someone after they've passed by, and laughing about it in their face. A very big difference.

I thought we were past that point and had established that he had threatened her?

Let's keep it friendly, guys.

 Cheesecat wrote:

Actually there was similar thread a few months where the story was set in the UK and that's exactly what happened, American Dakkanauts started bashing the UK about how they have no free speech (which is untrue btw).

Yes. In one case, a kid was arrested for having made tasteless jokes on Facebook.

In another case, a man was arrested for stating his intent to commit assault, and pleaded down to a lesser charge.

Other than the fact that they're completely different, they're very similar. I get that our Brit friends are pretty embarrassed about that Facebook case, but suggesting this is on the same level is not the way to go.

Tasteless jokes about what again? And to whom?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Psychological abuse is no joke. My family has been personally effected by it.

My nephew's father was highly abusive psychologically. Almost drove them to suicide before my sister finally got full custody and her new husband adopted them. Now its all better by dang it was the worst thing on earth to go through.

From a parent, it's a totally different situation. However, I still don't believe in the concept. While some people are very severely affected, I suspect that a lot of claims are frivolously made in order to make it seem as though one has a more serious position, which is insulting to people who truly suffered. I don't mean to degrade your situation by any means. The situation here isn't a case of abuse coming from a parent.

You don't have to believe in it for it to be real. It's not Peter Pan's ability to fly.

Psychological abuse is a very real thing, and it is not limited to parents heaping it upon their own children. There's a reason that "cyberbullying" is becoming something which schools and other organizations are trying to prevent children from using upon other children.

I am forced to agree with Kanluwen completely on this one.

I'd like to state I concur with Kanluwen and the Weiner Herder from Texas. Psychological abuse IS abuse. It's not a subject that's in question.

As to this case, I find the gun jumping reactions early in the thread slightly amusing in a sad way. The guy is a grade A donkey cave and probably shouldn't threaten people if he doesn't want to end up locked up for it. Making fun of a child as an adult however simply proves he's about as low on the scale of human life as you can get, making fun of a disabled child proves the point.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is not 'insulting another person' or 'being an ass', this is psychological child abuse, by an adult, towards a child with quite enough on her plate already.

Screw him, hope he enjoys prison and the lifetime of complications that will earn him.

You seem to have anger issues.

_Tim?

You say that like its a bad thing.

 Seaward wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

Actually there was similar thread a few months where the story was set in the UK and that's exactly what happened, American Dakkanauts started bashing the UK about how they have no free speech (which is untrue btw).

Yes. In one case, a kid was arrested for having made tasteless jokes on Facebook.

In another case, a man was arrested for stating his intent to commit assault, and pleaded down to a lesser charge.

Other than the fact that they're completely different, they're very similar. I get that our Brit friends are pretty embarrassed about that Facebook case, but suggesting this is on the same level is not the way to go.

Yes, we're all doing that. IN OPPOSITE LAND!

No one is saying it's exactly the same thing. I'm certainly not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoneLictor wrote:
People shouldn't be arrested for hurting the feelings of others.

Gah! What is it with you fething people?! It's not that black and white!


Christ on a frigging bike.

This isn't the same thing as the Facebook idiot in the UK. That guy got off with a community order I think.

Anyway.

This case has all sorts of different issues surrounding it as do other cases of their ilk.

Each case is tried on its merits or lack of. Things are not black and white but if something comes to the attention of law enforcement there is a basis on how to proceed.

 Albatross wrote:
Yes, we're all doing that. IN OPPOSITE LAND!

No one is saying it's exactly the same thing. I'm certainly not.

Which is why I - and the person I quoted - used the word 'similar' rather than 'same'. The cases are not the same, but, as I was actually saying, they're also not similar.

Gah! What is it with you fething people?! It's not that black and white!

Yes, it is.

 Seaward wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Yes, we're all doing that. IN OPPOSITE LAND!

No one is saying it's exactly the same thing. I'm certainly not.

Which is why I - and the person I quoted - used the word 'similar' rather than 'same'. The cases are not the same, but, as I was actually saying, they're also not similar.

I could explain to you why there are structural similarities, but I'm pretty much convinced at this point that you aren't equipped to take part in such discussions. I will attempt to explain my point again but this is literally as simple as I can make it. If you still can't follow then I'll probably just give up:

The difference between 'hurt feelings' due to offence and the fear felt as a result of a verbal threat is, in very basic terms, a semantic difference. Both are 'just words'. However, civilised societies recognise that words can be damaging, both to individuals and to society as a whole, so steps are taken to control what people say in very specific circumstances - getting the balance right in order to keep pace with the times is a constant process. The USA is not exempt from this process, despite what some Americans like to pretend to themselves.

Over to you.