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Bobug wrote:
Some of mine for Tau:

Drones dont count towards morale checks

This alone would make me happy but i like where you are going with that.

Ethereal should give ATSKNF or similar effect for units in los, heck just attaching him to something makes them fearless. Otherwise what’s the point of taking him?

Bobug wrote:
Some of mine for Tau:
Bonding knife as a squad upgrade, never requires insane heroism to regroup

Thanks to the FAQ, thats how it already works!

The proposed changes to Dark Eldar are exactly what's needed.

 Sephyr wrote:


Chaos Space Marines:
-Mutilators: Add the Rampage USR to the unit special rules.
-Havocs: Flak missiles are a 5 point upgrade for each Missile Launcher in the squad.
-Chaos Land Raider: Transport Capacity increased to 12 models.
-Possessed: As long as the Possessed Champion is alive, the controlling played can pick which if the Vessels of Chaos powers the unit has each turn.
-Daemonic Possession: The controlling player can pick which transported model gets devoured by the vehicle to repair lost hull points.
-Deity-specific Icons allow deep-striking units of the same deity to arrive without scatter within 6 inches.

-Adding rampage to mutie I agree with, they are not worth taking over oblits without it.

The rest unquoted is kinda meh, or take it or leave it. The rest quoted is all kinds of OP ridiculousness.

-Reducing the cost of Flakk? It's ment to be expensive because of the utility of having antiEVERYTHING.
-Increasing the LR to 12 cap when its cap is most likely being reduced to 10 across the board, think of the CSM dex as a view of whats to come. and iff not then your LRs are just as good as Space wolves.
-Adding a special rule with no point increase, you know theres a reason people dislike grey knights right?
-Picking carrys no risk to the important models and its thematically not chaos to be so ordered.
-No scatter within 6" of all icons in addition to everything they already do now for no additional cost, we already get USRs on top of the +1 to the combat resolution for around the same cost as a company banner which only adds one to the combat resolution and is rarer, but what do I know.

 Sephyr wrote:

Imperial Guard:
Vendetta Gunship: Cost is increased to 150 points.
Valkyrie Assault Carrier: Cost is increased to 120 points.

Why? I literally can't fathom why you would call for a point increase on these two units.

 Sephyr wrote:

Space Wolves:
-Bjorn the Fell-Handed: Bjorn has 4 Hull Points.
-Long Fangs: Cost 17 points per model. Missile Launcher option costs 15 points.
-Grey Hunters: Each models costs 16 points.

-Bjorn is a venerable dread with 13 front armour and an invulnerable save, hes fine with 3HPs.
-+2 points per model for no reason and +5 points for a missile launcher, this coming from a person that suggested that the 14 point havocs, who can have a much bigger squad, should have the overall cost of their missile launchers decreased via Flakk missiles while retaining the massive increase in utility. Makes perfect sense.
-You see this would make sense if we got anything out of it other than being penalized for being better at our combat range than vanilla marines, who work even better at their combat range.Face it, a vanilla marine is not optimized for close range fire fights. Just because grey hunters are does not mean they are under costed.

 Bausk wrote:


-Reducing the cost of Flakk? It's ment to be expensive because of the utility of having antiEVERYTHING.
-Increasing the LR to 12 cap when its cap is most likely being reduced to 10 across the board, think of the CSM dex as a view of whats to come. and iff not then your LRs are just as good as Space wolves.
-Adding a special rule with no point increase, you know theres a reason people dislike grey knights right?
-Picking carrys no risk to the important models and its thematically not chaos to be so ordered.
-No scatter within 6" of all icons in addition to everything they already do now for no additional cost, we already get USRs on top of the +1 to the combat resolution for around the same cost as a company banner which only adds one to the combat resolution and is rarer, but what do I know.

 Sephyr wrote:

Imperial Guard:
Vendetta Gunship: Cost is increased to 150 points.
Valkyrie Assault Carrier: Cost is increased to 120 points.

Why? I literally can't fathom why you would call for a point increase on these two units.


-Bjorn is a venerable dread with 13 front armour and an invulnerable save, hes fine with 3HPs.
-+2 points per model for no reason and +5 points for a missile launcher, this coming from a person that suggested that the 14 point havocs, who can have a much bigger squad, should have the overall cost of their missile launchers decreased via Flakk missiles while retaining the massive increase in utility. Makes perfect sense.
-You see this would make sense if we got anything out of it other than being penalized for being better at our combat range than vanilla marines, who work even better at their combat range.Face it, a vanilla marine is not optimized for close range fire fights. Just because grey hunters are does not mean they are under costed.

1-There is so much amazing utility in being antiEVERYTHING that pretty much no one takes the flakk upgrade currently. Newsflash: S7 missiles with no Intercept and no bonus on the damage chart are not going to d much against flyers, especially if the opponent has 3+ of them.

2- Land Raiders having the same carrying cpacity as rhinos is ridiculous. Loyalist LRs have greater carry capacity because they get temrinators in groups of 5 and people will want to add an HQ to them. It's not going away (where did you even get that it might?) and should be the same across codices.

3-Adding a special rule with no point increase is perfectly alright if said unit is already excessively priced.

4- Why should possessed picking their mutations be unfluffy or have to carry risk, especially in such a grievously overpriced unit? By that logic, Oblits and Mutilators should also have to always roll on tables each turn, all Daemon Engines should be checking instabilty each turn, and if you have 2 HQs they should test to see if they don't kil leach other. Chaos is chaotic and treacherous, right? That sounds fun and balanced.

5- Plenty of other armies get Deep Strike guidance for less. Icons can be sniped and are overpriced as they are now, a reason why few are ever taken. Adding 1 to combat resolution is a very situational bonus for something that can cost the same as 2 extra models (that could be there killing stuff and also adding to resolution)

Vendetta & Valkyrie- Really? You can't see why having the best flyers in the game also being among the cheapest is an issue? Most other books can barely get 3 naked lascannons for the price of a Vendetta. Let alone the twin-linking, the AV12 platform and the flyer rules, and the ability to Squadron to truly flood the table with cheap, durable flyers that never miss.

6- Bjorn can and will get krak'd to death in CC and there's a reason no one takes him. His Venerable rules mean jack now that he requires only 3 glances to be a ruin. Like eldar holofieds, which were amazing and are now substandard at best. 4 Hull Points, along with his invulnerable save, at least give him a fighting chance if he's in a bind. Also, he now takes Hull Ppoints from his own plasma cannon.

7-Long Fangs. Combined with your opinion on the Vendetta, this is almost enough to make me call Troll. But here we go. Log Fangs are cheaper than other similar picks and Better. Really, really better. They get to split fire to maximize their threat, have insanely low prices on a versatile, spammable weapon and can be buffed with Divination to twin-link all of their shots, making them actually a good threat against flyers for much, much less than the cost of a flakk missile squad. But it's not as if Rune Priests are good and popular, right? They are pretty much the main reason tyranid Warriors are codemned to a life of shame on shelves and dusty drawers. Havocs are a large unit size (that no one ever fills out) but have the same amount of heavy weapons, no ATSKNF, pay more for choices and cannot split fire. They outclass devastators as well, easily.

8-Grey Hunters are not just better in a fight than tacticals, though that by itself is a huge thing. They are also far more flexible in the gear they can carry, making for deadlier, more focused squads that don't have to lug arround a Heavy weapon that clashes with the flamer or meltagun the other guy is carrying. It's pretty much having the best aspects of BA assault marines (extra attack, ATSKNF, etc) and CSM marines (2 special weapon per squad, flexible).

I have to agree with all of Sephyr points.
Flakk missile are to expensive as is.
If the land raider transport capicity is increase to 12 maybe we should make it 250 points or something. This can be explained by not having auto targeting computer (machine spirit).
For possessed, random is bad so letting them choose makes the unit a lot more fun to play and more worth taking.
Your still losing a model, nothing ruins a game when your 200 point character just get eaten.
Other armies that have banners usually have two effects why shouldn't chaos?

Vendetta are really under priced (arguments can be made for the valkyrie as well) compare it any other flyer. Also don't forget they can transport 12 models and drop them off anywhere regardless of how fast they moved.

 Bausk wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Imperial Guard:
Vendetta Gunship: Cost is increased to 150 points.
Valkyrie Assault Carrier: Cost is increased to 120 points.

Why? I literally can't fathom why you would call for a point increase on these two units.

This is really enough to make me think that you aren't very good at 40k and therefore shouldn't be critiquing rules changes or suggestions.

OP I like these, they seem pretty solid. Too bad the changes to the chaos emo warband marines still doesn't make them very good but at least it gives some of them a fighting chance.

Some additional suggestions:

Grey Knights:
The Nemesis Force Sword used by Brotherhood Champions is now AP2.
In squads with the option to take psybolt ammo, the upgrade is now 3 points per model instead of a flat 20 point upgrade.
Astral Aim: The cover save awarded by Astral Aim is reduced to a 5+ save.
Inquisitors: All inquisitors who have purchased Mastery Level 1 may purchase Mastery Level 2 for 20 points, receiving both the Hammerhand and Psychic Communion Powers. Additionally, all inquisitors are now 5 points more expensive.
Ordo Malleus Inquisitors have preferred enemy: Daemons (the USR, not the codex) and preferred enemy: Psykers.
Ordo Herectus Inquisitors have preferred enemy: Heretics, which includes all human units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (ie, Chaos Marines and Cultists, but not possessed, Daemon Engines, etc.), and all Imperial Codices (yes this is a big buff but Ordo Herectus Inquisitors were the worst by far).
Ordo Xenos Inquisitors have preferred enemy: Xenos (includes all units from the Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices).
Dreadnought: Psybolt Ammo now costs 10 points.
Justicar Thrawn: Gains Independent Character.
Purifiers: Incinerators now cost 5 points, Psycannons now cost 15 points. Additionally, Cleansing Fire no longer counts towards combat resolution.
Techmarines: Now cost 100 points, but have an additional wound and attack.

Anyone else think the point cost of sisters of battle should go down a point or two seeing as they are one less point then a chaos space marine?

 Necrosis wrote:
Anyone else think the point cost of sisters of battle should go down a point or two seeing as they are one less point then a chaos space marine?

Definitely. I didn't include a section on them because I read the book some time ago and never actually played against them, but they do need some big reworking if they are going to have more than a single viable build.

6- Bjorn can and will get krak'd to death in CC and there's a reason no one takes him. His Venerable rules mean jack now that he requires only 3 glances to be a ruin. Like eldar holofieds, which were amazing and are now substandard at best. 4 Hull Points, along with his invulnerable save, at least give him a fighting chance if he's in a bind. Also, he now takes Hull Ppoints from his own plasma cannon.

Krak grenades are S6 so how exactly is Bjorn going to be krak'd to death in CC with AV 13? Even AV 12 doesn't really worry about S6 attacks. After rolling to hit, needing a 6 to glance you need (assuming marines vs dreadnought) 12 grenade attacks on average to get one glance. This is pretty hard to get consistently when, outside of CSM, no one is taking groups of more 10 marines and you lose all bonus attacks when using a grenade in combat.

The real reason no one takes combat dreads is because they don't take speed bumps (tarpits) well. They simply don't have enough attacks to get through larger (10 or more) units of infantry. Shooty dreads don't have to be tied up to do their job.

I didn't think their is anything wrong with Djorn getting 4 hull points? It's not like it's going to make him broken. In fact it probably makes him more likely worth taking.

 Bausk wrote:

-You see this would make sense if we got anything out of it other than being penalized for being better at our combat range than vanilla marines, who work even better at their combat range.Face it, a vanilla marine is not optimized for close range fire fights. Just because grey hunters are does not mean they are under costed.

What is a Vanilla Marine optimized for then? You have the same weapons except you get 2 CCW AND you get counterattack. Yeah, I know, Combat Tactics, no heavy weapon yadda yadda, but face it, 2 Meltaguns in a squad that is dedicated to close-range firefights is way better than one Meltagun and a heavy weapon on a unit that's dedicated to close-range firefights.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Imperial Guard:
Vendetta Gunship: Cost is increased to 150 points.
Valkyrie Assault Carrier: Cost is increased to 120 points.

Why? I literally can't fathom why you would call for a point increase on these two units.

This is really enough to make me think that you aren't very good at 40k and therefore shouldn't be critiquing rules changes or suggestions.

OP I like these, they seem pretty solid. Too bad the changes to the chaos emo warband marines still doesn't make them very good but at least it gives some of them a fighting chance.

I agree, I thought Basuk didn't know what he was talking about in the CSM changes thread, but now I KNOW he has zero clue about balace.

Here is my view on Necrons, from the OP.

-Gauntlet of Fire: bumped up to S5 when fired as a template.

Still not going to make it worth it. Perhaps S5 and Torrent would, but even then, I'd never take it over a Warscythe.

-Warscythe: Costs 15 points now.

Fair, I can agree.

-Mindshackle Scarabs: Cost increased to 30 points.

This is a bit too much. I could see 20, but not 30.

-C'Tan Shard: Cost is reduce to 165 for the basic shard.

This, plus giving it a 3+ Armor save, while keeping it's 4++ would help a lot. Some of it's upgrades would need to be improved as well.

-Flayed Ones: Gain the Crusader USR.

Zealot, I think would work better, without making them over the top.

-Annihilation Barge: Cost increased to 100 points.

Can agree with this.

-Night Scythe: Cost increased to 125 points.

Disagree here. The more codexs that get flyers, and anti-flyer upgrades, the more it will balance toward it's cost. At least we'll see if that's the case.

 Sasori wrote:

-Night Scythe: Cost increased to 125 points.

Disagree here. The more codexs that get flyers, and anti-flyer upgrades, the more it will balance toward it's cost. At least we'll see if that's the case.

Thanks for the comments! they are appreciated, really.

And my issue with the Night Scythe is not even the durability or spammability, but the fact that is has such a huge carrying capacity and said transported models don't even suffer the main danger of falling to a nasty death if it gets destroyed. Add the decent AV for a flyer, the amazing gun and Living Metal, and i think you have package that is too good to stay under 120 points, especially when So much intensely inferior stuff costs comparatively more (Wave serpents, Devilfish, etc).

 Sephyr wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

-Night Scythe: Cost increased to 125 points.

Disagree here. The more codexs that get flyers, and anti-flyer upgrades, the more it will balance toward it's cost. At least we'll see if that's the case.

Thanks for the comments! they are appreciated, really.

And my issue with the Night Scythe is not even the durability or spammability, but the fact that is has such a huge carrying capacity and said transported models don't even suffer the main danger of falling to a nasty death if it gets destroyed. Add the decent AV for a flyer, the amazing gun and Living Metal, and i think you have package that is too good to stay under 120 points, especially when So much intensely inferior stuff costs comparatively more (Wave serpents, Devilfish, etc).

I can agree to an extent. I think comparing them to Devilfishes, and Wave Serpents is a bit unfair though, sense those codes are long outdated.

I could see a possible points increase on the Night Scythe ( I remember when people in 5th were calling it overcosted, haha.) but I'd have to see the directions that the new codexes take in regards to Anti-flyer. If a lot of Anti-flyer weapons become available, AV11 will be a fairly easy nut to crack. It does offer an incredible amount of benefits, with almost zero drawbacks for it's cost though, I agree. 120 points is in all honesty, pretty fair.

The problem with MSS is that they are an instant buy and have the ability to stop a 200 point character dead in their tracks half the time. Now only do you stop them from attacking but they also injury themselves allowing you to easily win challenges. The closes item I can think is a dark eldar clone field which stop d3 hits. MSS is far better as it stops all attacks when it works while clone field is only d3 though clone field always works but when MSS works the person also hits themselves d3 times.

 Necrosis wrote:
The problem with MSS is that they are an instant buy and have the ability to stop a 200 point character dead in their tracks half the time. Now only do you stop them from attacking but they also injury themselves allowing you to easily win challenges. The closes item I can think is a dark eldar clone field which stop d3 hits. MSS is far better as it stops all attacks when it works while clone field is only d3 though clone field always works but when MSS works the person also hits themselves d3 times.

There's also the Psychostroke grenade in the GK book which is even more broken, as it takes effect automatically and you don't even get a token Leadership hurdle or anything. It has a 1-in-6 chance of doing nothing, but more often than not it utterly ruins everything in CC.

Our pal Ward seems fond of that kind of upgrade that renders tons of CC options and issues moot.

Then lets increase the cost of Psychostroke grenades to! That being said it only works for the first round of combat and some of the results are not as bad.

I never agree with people that want to make LF/GH/Vendettas more expensive. Those little strengths are something I love about this game and it gives serious character to the environments.

I feel like the environment is moving towards that sort of power level and things will get interesting, as they already are, as stuff like LF become less universally bad ass.

 Lucre wrote:
I never agree with people that want to make LF/GH/Vendettas more expensive. Those little strengths are something I love about this game and it gives serious character to the environments.

I feel like the environment is moving towards that sort of power level and things will get interesting, as they already are, as stuff like LF become less universally bad ass.

The issue, IMO, is that if you always take something because it is SO much better that other options in same category, then that unit needs to be modified (easier) or all other units need to be (harder).

It makes the game less dynamic if everyone takes the same thing, see Draigo from GK.

 Lucre wrote:
I never agree with people that want to make LF/GH/Vendettas more expensive. Those little strengths are something I love about this game and it gives serious character to the environments.

I feel like the environment is moving towards that sort of power level and things will get interesting, as they already are, as stuff like LF become less universally bad ass.

If the Chaos Space Marines book is any indicator of the future, the environment is most definitely not moving towards that sort of power level.

I'll quote myself since I seem to have disappeared in the tide of other changes:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brotherhood Champions have the option for instant death all the time, not just in challenges, and can drag anyone who kills him with him. How is ID in challenges for the Emperor's Champion too much?

AP2 AND ID on something is fairly tough. Especilly with Meq durability, a 2+ and 4++. Throw in the EC challenge rules and he would be OP at his point cost.

The EC Challenge rules that are actually a negative rule for the BT player?

Really, the only thing I have a problem with is the C'tan Shard's cost and the cost of Triarch Praetorians/Lychguard. And Flayed Ones. That one's obvious. And Gauntlet of Fire. That thing kinda sucks.

C'tan fixes:
-reduce cost to 150
-3+ armor save
--ability fixes:
--Entropic Touch: cost changed to free
--Gaze of Death: Cost changed to 40 points
--Grand Illusion: Cost changed to 30 points
--Lord of Fire: Cost changed to 15 points, C'tan is not affected by any of the weapon types listed in addition to the other effects.
--Moulder of Worlds: Cost changed to 10 points
--Pyreshards: One of the following: A) AP - to AP5, B) Assault 8, Soul Blaze, or C) Assault 8, Shred
--Sentient Singularity: Replace "all enemy vehicles" with "all enemy models"
--Swarm of Spirit Dust: Cost changed to 15 points
--Time's Arrow: Cost changed to 35 points
--Transdimensional Thunderbolt: Cost changed to 35 points
--Writhing Worldscape: Cost changed to 30 points

I am still struggling to figure out why a C'tan Shard should cost more than 200 points (as written in the codex).

Triarch Praetorians: Increase base attacks to 2, so A3 with VB/PC.

Lychguard: 35 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

Flayed Ones: Gain Fear and Shred USRs (or just Rending, or Fear and Rending). Changing the PPM does nothing. They still don't make it to the target in one piece, an their attacks are still lacking. They need to be better at killing so using them in conjunction with Imotekh isn't a dumb idea.

Gauntlet of Fire: Gains the Soul Blaze USR for both ranged and CC.

As for DE, I haven't played them recently, but Mandrakes still suck, so they need Shrouded (this replaces Stealth) and their CCWs are AP5 (this replaces how much they suck).

 Necrosis wrote:
Sisters of Battle generate D3 Faith points for every 500 points they are playing? (Example a 1500 game would allow the sister of battle player to generate 3d3 faith points)

Immolator becomes fast?

I like this. Also moving pentinent engines to elite slot.

Lychguard: 35 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

No way, that would be way way, to good. You then have T5 Terminators with Warscythes and Reanimation protocols for the same price.

Lychguard could either use WS5, or additional attack, and then they would be pretty decent.

Triarch Praetorians just starting with 2A base. That's a given. They need something else too, IMO. Assault Grenades would help as well.

You guys seem to have missed the most important change required in 6th edition:

St. Celestine: cost changed to 200 points.

If we change the point cost of St. Celestine then we have to change the point cost of the entire codex.,

Yeah. I found it kind of funny that in a somewhat handicapped army the idea to raise the cost of it's best unit. If you're making a change like that, but not making anything better it's just a nerf to the army in general.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Yeah. I found it kind of funny that in a somewhat handicapped army the idea to raise the cost of it's best unit. If you're making a change like that, but not making anything better it's just a nerf to the army in general.

Sisters aren't "handicapped" (bad word to use for this, btw), and St. Celestine is broken.