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Sisters are at a disadvantage based on their abilities being unable to increase based on army size, limited number of units, limited range, and limited builds. I'm not sure how you're viewing the word as bad, but it means disadvantaged when refering to games/sports.

One model in the army is undercosted, I agree. But the rest of the army seems to require a larger fix than simply making one model more expensive. One negative on top of a bunch of problems doesn't fix something.

 Sasori wrote:

Lychguard: 35 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

No way, that would be way way, to good. You then have T5 Terminators with Warscythes and Reanimation protocols for the same price.

Lychguard could either use WS5, or additional attack, and then they would be pretty decent.

Triarch Praetorians just starting with 2A base. That's a given. They need something else too, IMO. Assault Grenades would help as well.

How about

Lychguard: WS5, 40 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

Praetorians: WS5 and base 2A, RoC ditches Unwieldy

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Sisters are at a disadvantage based on their abilities being unable to increase based on army size, limited number of units, limited range, and limited builds. I'm not sure how you're viewing the word as bad, but it means disadvantaged when refering to games/sports.

One model in the army is undercosted, I agree. But the rest of the army seems to require a larger fix than simply making one model more expensive. One negative on top of a bunch of problems doesn't fix something.

Also compared to chaos space marines everything else in their army is over costed (aside from special characters and most vehicles).

 McNinja wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Lychguard: 35 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

No way, that would be way way, to good. You then have T5 Terminators with Warscythes and Reanimation protocols for the same price.

Lychguard could either use WS5, or additional attack, and then they would be pretty decent.

Triarch Praetorians just starting with 2A base. That's a given. They need something else too, IMO. Assault Grenades would help as well.

How about

Lychguard: WS5, 40 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

So that's 5 more points for a T5 WS5 Terminator with a Warscythe, 3++ save and Reanimation Protocols?! Hell no!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

How about

Lychguard: WS5, 40 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

So that's 5 more points for a T5 WS5 Terminator with a Warscythe, 3++ save and Reanimation Protocols?! Hell no!

First off Lychguard are far from T5 Terminators if they get a weave. The weave gives them a 2+ save not an invunerable. The get a 4++ if they trade the scythe for sword and board thats it. A warscythe lychguard with a weave would be a terminator with chainfist with -1 S +1 I +1 T and no invunerable.

You can take a unit of 5 Lords with Scythes and Weave for 60 ppm. They get a better RP and can be split up between units. As Lychguard have the same statline you'd have to compare that cost to balance Lychguard. The weave would have to be a 10-15 point upgrade to be comparable.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Sisters are at a disadvantage based on their abilities being unable to increase based on army size, limited number of units, limited range, and limited builds. I'm not sure how you're viewing the word as bad, but it means disadvantaged when refering to games/sports.

One model in the army is undercosted, I agree. But the rest of the army seems to require a larger fix than simply making one model more expensive. One negative on top of a bunch of problems doesn't fix something.

The only real disadvantage Sisters have is that the models are so real-life expensive. IMO they're one of the strongest armies at present.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Sisters are at a disadvantage based on their abilities being unable to increase based on army size, limited number of units, limited range, and limited builds. I'm not sure how you're viewing the word as bad, but it means disadvantaged when refering to games/sports.

One model in the army is undercosted, I agree. But the rest of the army seems to require a larger fix than simply making one model more expensive. One negative on top of a bunch of problems doesn't fix something.

The only real disadvantage Sisters have is that the models are so real-life expensive. IMO they're one of the strongest armies at present.

Are you trolling us? Do you have anything to back up that statement. You know what, why don't you go make a thread stating how you think sisters are one of the strongest armies at present. Doesn't matter what forum and tell me how that goes.

 Necrosis wrote:
Do you have anything to back up that statement.

Simple experience playing with and against good Sisters players. The Codex packs a nasty punch and Allies really take it to the next level by eliminating the book's only real weaknesses. I would play them myself, but the models are just too dang expensive-- at the prices they go for these days, I think I'd be better off with Death Korps!

Luckily, there may be a solution-- I see from your signature that you are considering giving away your Sisters army if they don't get an update next year.

If you do end up doing so, let me know-- I'd gladly take them off your hands.

So what your saying is their allies are to strong. Cause all the forums I've gone to say's sisters of battle suck. But hi, it just a ton of people saying it and websites, I'm sure their all wrong and your right about sisters strength and we should nerf them without giving anything back. Cause I'm sure being one less point then a chaos space marine is fine or not having flyers or long range anti tank or not having a decent way to get their assault units into combat or not having heavy tanks or not having high mobile units like bikes and skimmers and not having more then one build. But I guess having allies fixes everything. Hi, your army sucks at everything but it's okay you have allies.

But if were going by local meta, then nids should be nerf cause in my area they seem to do very well.

 Necrosis wrote:
So what your saying is their allies are to strong.

No. I'm saying that Sisters' weaknesses in 5th edition-- most notably, a lack of good backfield objective holders-- have been mitigated by 6th edition allowing you to take Allies. Even a single Guard platoon can provide a solution here. Allying in Imperial Guard also lets you take a Vendetta or two to deal with enemy flyers.

But even a pure Sisters army can be effective. DakkaDakka user "Amerikon" did very well with his Sisters at the Golden Throne GT a little while back without any allies at all. Despite Internet conventional wisdom to the contrary, I think the Sisters (like Tyranids) are great in 6th edition.

He did but he is one person and one person doing something can be dismiss. Now lets reverse the question, who would want to take sisters as allies.

He never said NERF SISTERSSSS. Don't make it sound like he said that.

I kind of agree with him. Sisters have a weak codex. We all know this. But in the hands of the right commander, like I know a few at my FLGS, they can be really good. Top Tier good? No way, but still they can hold their own. Allies just help cover weaknesses.

Any army can be good, it just needs the right person leading it. People get used to standard MEQ armies, so when they attempt to play Sisters they fail and quit because the standard army thinking doesn't really apply to them because they are so old

 Necrosis wrote:
He did but he is one person and one person doing something can be dismiss. Now lets reverse the question, who would want to take sisters as allies.

Primarily Imperial Guard. That said, Sisters are much more effective as a primary detachment than an allied group because St. Celestine is so overpowered with regards to her interactions with secondary objectives and Warlord Traits-- note that I would still include her if she cost 200 points!

Using this logic, Tau can increase the cost of crisis suits as their 6th Ed fix because they can take IG allies.

Allies does not factor in here. A codex is only held on its own merit. The sisters have a very limited codex. You can't say that allies fixes this, because codecs with many options and builds can take allies too.

And my only point was his suggestion to fix a weak codex was to make it weaker. Try making a suggestion to cover more than one model or it looks bad.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Using this logic, Tau can increase the cost of crisis suits as their 6th Ed fix because they can take IG allies.

Allies does not factor in here. A codex is only held on its own merit. The sisters have a very limited codex. You can't say that allies fixes this, because codecs with many options and builds can take allies too.

And my only point was his suggestion to fix a weak codex was to make it weaker. Try making a suggestion to cover more than one model or it looks bad.

Something like this right:

Saint Celestine Point Cost increase to 200 (Need I explain?)
Jacob Point Cost Increase to 110 (to good for his current point cost)
Kyrinov Point Cost Increase to 100 (he better then a confessor in every way)
Canoness Point Cost decrease to 60 (no reason for her to be the same cost as a chaos lord)
Celestian Point Cost decrease to 70, each additional model is 13 points (same cost as a chaos space marine, has 1 additional attack but 1 less T, S and I)
Sisters of Battle Point Cost decrease to 115, each additional model is 11 points (honestly their 1 less point then a chaos space marine right now)
Immolator gains fast special rule (6th edition really ruined template weapons on tanks, the old immolator use to be able to move 12 and fire its heavy flamers)
Retributor Point Cost decrease to 60, each additional model is 11 points (see battle sisters)
Eviscerators are 15 points (brings them in line with all other codexes)

 Tarrasq wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

How about

Lychguard: WS5, 40 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

So that's 5 more points for a T5 WS5 Terminator with a Warscythe, 3++ save and Reanimation Protocols?! Hell no!

First off Lychguard are far from T5 Terminators if they get a weave. The weave gives them a 2+ save not an invunerable. The get a 4++ if they trade the scythe for sword and board thats it. A warscythe lychguard with a weave would be a terminator with chainfist with -1 S +1 I +1 T and no invunerable.

You can take a unit of 5 Lords with Scythes and Weave for 60 ppm. They get a better RP and can be split up between units. As Lychguard have the same statline you'd have to compare that cost to balance Lychguard. The weave would have to be a 10-15 point upgrade to be comparable.

no, reanimation protocals are just too good
I dont think they should get weave, ever, but if they did 5 ppm is way too cheap. Even just 10 ppm is too good. 15 points is probably a little high though.
a lychguard with weave would be a terminator with a chainfist with -1str(doest matter) +1 init(huge) +1T(huge) no invul(meh) and Resurrection protocal(better than an invul) the terminator would have a storm bolter, but meh.
+1T is 5-6 points. +1 init(AP2 at above init1) is another 5 points and Resurrection protocols are another 5 points more than the 5++. A terminator with a storm bolter and chainfist is 45-50 points. So with weave and warsythe 60 points a model doesnt sound bad, kind of like an overlord with sythe and weave.

I'd argue that RP is comparable to FNP except worse.

When you fail either that model is gone for good. RP can be used against ID, however FNP lets you keep fighting where with RP you're out of the fight until the end of the phase.

That last bit is very important for Necrons as they have low initiative. Almost everyone is going to beat them to the punch. Which means that your models may ultimately survive the round of combat but they dont hit back very hard. This is the reason Necrons have only one good CC unit, and wraiths dont even have RP.

RP is It Wll Not Die for single wound models....a 10 point upgrade at best. Also in any situation where armor saves are ignored I'd rather have a 5++.

The -1 S matters as its the difference between ID on T4. Also Lychguard dont get ATSKNF. So you should probably use Chaos Termies as a base which are 49 ppm with chainfist and +1 T but you'd have take off for the lack of invul and for the ranged weapon -18. Then add for RP and +1 leadership +16 at the most. And that would give you 47 ppm. Thats straight from the CSM Armory prices and a little generosity for RP IMO.

Even at 47ppm I still wouldnt take Lychguard as even with a 2+ they wouldnt earn their points back...

 Exergy wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

How about

Lychguard: WS5, 40 ppm, Sempiternal Weave +5 ppm, Sword and Board +5 ppm

So that's 5 more points for a T5 WS5 Terminator with a Warscythe, 3++ save and Reanimation Protocols?! Hell no!

First off Lychguard are far from T5 Terminators if they get a weave. The weave gives them a 2+ save not an invunerable. The get a 4++ if they trade the scythe for sword and board thats it. A warscythe lychguard with a weave would be a terminator with chainfist with -1 S +1 I +1 T and no invunerable.

You can take a unit of 5 Lords with Scythes and Weave for 60 ppm. They get a better RP and can be split up between units. As Lychguard have the same statline you'd have to compare that cost to balance Lychguard. The weave would have to be a 10-15 point upgrade to be comparable.

no, reanimation protocals are just too good
I dont think they should get weave, ever, but if they did 5 ppm is way too cheap. Even just 10 ppm is too good. 15 points is probably a little high though.
a lychguard with weave would be a terminator with a chainfist with -1str(doest matter) +1 init(huge) +1T(huge) no invul(meh) and Resurrection protocal(better than an invul) the terminator would have a storm bolter, but meh.
+1T is 5-6 points. +1 init(AP2 at above init1) is another 5 points and Resurrection protocols are another 5 points more than the 5++. A terminator with a storm bolter and chainfist is 45-50 points. So with weave and warsythe 60 points a model doesnt sound bad, kind of like an overlord with sythe and weave.

how does initiative matter so much? Against terminators, sure, but against anything else, no. Vehicles dont have initiative, and army wide i2 is not good. How is to so much better than an invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'd argue that RP is comparable to FNP except worse.

When you fail either that model is gone for good. RP can be used against ID, however FNP lets you keep fighting where with RP you're out of the fight until the end of the phase.

That last bit is very important for Necrons as they have low initiative. Almost everyone is going to beat them to the punch. Which means that your models may ultimately survive the round of combat but they dont hit back very hard. This is the reason Necrons have only one good CC unit, and wraiths dont even have RP.

RP is It Wll Not Die for single wound models....a 10 point upgrade at best. Also in any situation where armor saves are ignored I'd rather have a 5++.

The -1 S matters as its the difference between ID on T4. Also Lychguard dont get ATSKNF. So you should probably use Chaos Termies as a base which are 49 ppm with chainfist and +1 T but you'd have take off for the lack of invul and for the ranged weapon -18. Then add for RP and +1 leadership +16 at the most. And that would give you 47 ppm. Thats straight from the CSM Armory prices and a little generosity for RP IMO.

Even at 47ppm I still wouldnt take Lychguard as even with a 2+ they wouldnt earn their points back...

I agree completely. They are simply too slow, both movement and Initiative-wise. They have the most powerful CC weapon in the game... but can't move fast enough (or live long enough) to use it against anything other than Terminators.