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Iv always wondered this. Was it warhammer or some video game or book or what?

Iv always loved orks. I played as an ork on oblivion, skyrim, world of warcraft, and im painting an ork army. Im really curious were they came from.

Um...Tolkien, I believe. If not him, then Druid mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc

Tolkien.

Orcs as we know them today were a creation of Tolkeins. His version of Orcs are much differant from Warhammer's (and Warcafts) versions.

The Orc was created by Tolkien and I believe was first written in the Silmarilon, and first published in The Hobbit. They are much different than 40k Orks. If you like linguistics and fantasy I reccomend you read Tolkien.

D&D used Orcs before warhammer along with lots if things taken from various sources like Cthulhu. Some things they were asked not to use again without crediting their owners. But they've appeared in all sorts of table and computer games, books, Magic the Gathering, Warcraft, Elder Scrolls, etc.

Tolkien created Orcs. However, they are very much different from 40k Orks.

Tolkein is the origin for the modern concept of Elves too if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. Tolkein did the elfs and orcs in literature first (as we would know them). D&D homaged this, as did many other fantasy games that came after.
He disneyfied the elves from their traditional roots (who were much more capricious and capable of much more in the nastyness stakes).

 chromedog wrote:
He disneyfied the elves from their traditional roots (who were much more capricious and capable of much more in the nastyness stakes).

You actually see that side of Elves a lot more in the Hobbit, with the Wood Elves as alien and very dangerous. Reading the Hobbit as a kid that actually confused me, as I'd already gotten something of a taste of Elves through D&D and Warhammer, and it felt to my young mind like Tolkien got Elves wrong.

It isn't entirely removed in LotR, but with the Elves now having played a key role in the first defeat of the Sauron, they become a much more noble creation, and somewhat less mysterious.


I think that's where the origin of Warhammer's High Elves and Wood Elves comes from. The Wood Elves are the mysterious, alien woodland creatures like the Hobbit's elves, while the High Elves, complete with their noble defence of the world in times gone by, are the fading power like LotR's Elves.

 sebster wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
He disneyfied the elves from their traditional roots (who were much more capricious and capable of much more in the nastyness stakes).

You actually see that side of Elves a lot more in the Hobbit, with the Wood Elves as alien and very dangerous. Reading the Hobbit as a kid that actually confused me, as I'd already gotten something of a taste of Elves through D&D and Warhammer, and it felt to my young mind like Tolkien got Elves wrong.

It isn't entirely removed in LotR, but with the Elves now having played a key role in the first defeat of the Sauron, they become a much more noble creation, and somewhat less mysterious.


I think that's where the origin of Warhammer's High Elves and Wood Elves comes from. The Wood Elves are the mysterious, alien woodland creatures like the Hobbit's elves, while the High Elves, complete with their noble defence of the world in times gone by, are the fading power like LotR's Elves.

Too good to pass up lol.

Elves are a bunch of arrogant oversized fairies.

Simpsons did it!

Weren't orks just like elves, goblins, hobgoblins etc. creatures from old myths and stories?

According to Wikipedia, Hobgoblins were small, friendly but troublesome creatures with brown fur. It was Tolkien who made them larger and more vicious in his fantasy world.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin#section_1

As far as Orc/k's go, they are a Tolkien creation through and through. Elves, on the other hand, are an ancient Germanic/Norse myth....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves

Orks are from GW's Wh40k setting.


The term "Orc" was first coined by Tolkien, though it has it's roots in Old English as a catch all term for anything horrible (demons, ogres, the like)

 rodgers37 wrote:
Elves are a bunch of arrogant oversized fairies.

In English mythology, Elves and fairies were the same thing. So, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are from GW's Wh40k setting.


The term "Orc" was first coined by Tolkien, though it has it's roots in Old English as a catch all term for anything horrible (demons, ogres, the like)

IIRC he despised the spelling of it with a "k", which his publishers occasionally changed.

Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

But don't tell GW that...

Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

I don't think so? But he called some family of the Elvish lineage the Eldar or Eldarin iirc.

General Fantasy orcs are from Tolkien, but in his version they're all nasty wicked mean dumb and cowardly. I would classify the Warhammer/Warcraft Ork to be a different creature entirely. As they vastly changed both the look and culture/attitude of the Orks. For instance they're big and not diminutive, in Warcraft they're rather intelligent, and very noble at times. In both they're courageous and not really cowardly.

The WH Ork kind of stands out for me though because they took Orks and made them funny. Yes they're mean, yes some of them can be cunning, but really they're more like incredibly stupid fratboys who live to fight. Which is a pretty significant difference than any other Ork representation from any fantasy universe that I can think of.

Elder Scrolls Orcs are something of a mix of Tolkien and Warcraft, they're origins and looks are more Tolkien, but their culture and history is more like Warcraft.

Tolkien gave us most of the modern fantasy tropes when it comes to non-human creatures. Tree people/Ents, hobbits/halflings, dwarves as they are today, elves for certain, goblins, dragons, etc. Interestingly enough Harry Potter's representation of Non-Humans is more in line with historical views than Tolkien's literature.

Tolkien invented the Orc as a specific Race. As said it was previously a catchall phrase for scary monsters.

Goblins have been around in mythology in various forms for ages, as have Elves and Dwarves.

Of the three, only Goblins and Dwarves resemble what they have been portrayed as previously. Depending on the Mythology.


Goblins in various mythologies range from being little mischevious gnome like creatures to the meanspirited nasty creatures that are called Goblins in Fantesy and Tolkiens writings.

Elves were previously portrayed as small little hominoids, usually with magical abilities. Think Santa's Elves or Leprechauns.

Dwarves pretty much remained unchanged, they just got fleshed out by Tolkien.


Dwarves, Elves, and Goblins in older mythologies could have resembled each other quite abit, depending on the source. Or even been interchangable terms.


So in Tolkien's writings an Orc is simply a bigger Goblin, or rather a Goblin is a small stunted breed of Orc. And an Uruk is a larger more advanced kind of Orc.

We do have Tolkien to thank for our modern Fantesy races and how they are portrayed.

 d-usa wrote:
Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

But don't tell GW that...

GW will sue Tolkein's estate

IIRC they actually pay them royalties for the use of the word with 40k Eldar.

 Testify wrote:

 rodgers37 wrote:
Elves are a bunch of arrogant oversized fairies.

In English mythology, Elves and fairies were the same thing. So, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are from GW's Wh40k setting.


The term "Orc" was first coined by Tolkien, though it has it's roots in Old English as a catch all term for anything horrible (demons, ogres, the like)

IIRC he despised the spelling of it with a "k", which his publishers occasionally changed.

Actually, Tolkien used k sometimes too.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tolkien invented the Orc as a specific Race. As said it was previously a catchall phrase for scary monsters.

Goblins have been around in mythology in various forms for ages, as have Elves and Dwarves.

Of the three, only Goblins and Dwarves resemble what they have been portrayed as previously. Depending on the Mythology.

Goblins in various mythologies range from being little mischevious gnome like creatures to the meanspirited nasty creatures that are called Goblins in Fantesy and Tolkiens writings.

Elves were previously portrayed as small little hominoids, usually with magical abilities. Think Santa's Elves or Leprechauns.

Dwarves pretty much remained unchanged, they just got fleshed out by Tolkien.

That's... so incredibly dwarvish.
Although in celtic mythology, as has been pointed out, elves were rather more nasty than Santa's elves or leprechauns (who could be pretty mean-spirited all on their own, I believe).

 Grey Templar wrote:

So in Tolkien's writings an Orc is simply a bigger Goblin, or rather a Goblin is a small stunted breed of Orc. And an Uruk is a larger more advanced kind of Orc.

We do have Tolkien to thank for our modern Fantesy races and how they are portrayed.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I actually read ths stuff, but I thought Tolkien's orcs were tortured, deformed and devolved elves, whereas his goblins were their own race, and Uruk Hai (Black Orcs)were actually created by crossbreeding the two, which was done by Saruman (or was that just in the movies?).

God knows how you cross breed them when there don't seem to be any girl orcs around.

My guess is that Orcs have no sexual dimorphisim. So Lurtz could be a female for all we know.

To quote the Silmilrillion, "the orcs reproduced after the fashion of the other creations of Manwe" or something like that. It was the little passage about the creation of Orcs.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I actually read ths stuff, but I thought Tolkien's orcs were tortured, deformed and devolved elves, whereas his goblins were their own race, and Uruk Hai (Black Orcs)were actually created by crossbreeding the two, which was done by Saruman (or was that just in the movies?).

The first orcs were, but the next generation of orcs were birthed by elf maidens I think. He never really goes over Orc reproduction. He probably keeps a brood mother or two ala Dragon Age.

In the books I think it was the cross breeding of Orcs and Goblin Men, or just straight up men, that let them walk in the daylight.

I would say that the original "Orcs" as we would recognize them are Tolkien creations, and D&D carried the theme onwards. The Elder Scrolls Orc race is faithful in appearance to the "original" style of Orc.

The GW and Warcraft Orc/orks, where they are brooding hulk-jawed monsters with beady red eyes, are to my eyes, wholly GW in nature. Though it must be said that in both Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, Ork/orcs resembled the more human-sized Tolkien/Elder Scrolls Orcs, but they changed around the late 90's (much before World of Warcraft). In 2nd edition 40K and Gorkamorka, they were still green hunchbacked humans with slight lantern jaws. Then they got upgraded to the "green gorilla" body in 3e 40K.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

But don't tell GW that...

GW will sue Tolkein's estate

From what I've read, they were allowed to use the term Eldar, because they own the rights to produce all of the miniatures, etc. associated with LOTR, The Hobbit, and perhaps the rest of the Tolkien estate.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Tolkien also invented the term Eldar if I recall, which meant star people in his writings.

But don't tell GW that...

GW will sue Tolkein's estate

From what I've read, they were allowed to use the term Eldar, because they own the rights to produce all of the miniatures, etc. associated with LOTR, The Hobbit, and perhaps the rest of the Tolkien estate.

I know, that was tongue-in-cheek