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Trying to get back a grip on rules. Couple of doubts arised this evening that we're unable to solve searching the books :

1) can an already engaged model declare a charge against another model?
we were both pretty sure on 'no' but the rulebook on charge section lists as charge blockers only movement restrictions.
2) a model under a spray template but behind a model with bigger base (so wider and taller) can be hit/damaged by the attack?

Thanks in advance

1) I think so. I do know you can charge a model you are currently engaged with(quite easy with larger bases)

2) Yes a model behind another model can be hit by the Spray.

1) you can declare a charge against anybody you can see (baring special abilities like the centurion) even the guy you are engaged with in the first place.

2) sprays are only stopped by line of sight blocking terrain. so most models can only spray 3" into a forest yet eyeless sight means a carnivian sprays his full distance.

Just an extra bit about charges. They are declared and resolved on a model by model basis. So you don't say this unit charges that unit, instead you go by each model and say this one charges that guy, that one this guy and so on.

Thanks to both.

[EDIT]

 yastobaal wrote:
2) sprays are only stopped by line of sight blocking terrain. so most models can only spray 3" into a forest yet eyeless sight means a carnivian sprays his full distance.

So if a mini is behind a tall wall it is unaffected UNLESS the attacker can see it, in wich case the spray passes through solid matter and hit it?

bingo. Sometimes you get these abstractions. But it is easy to see if line of sight is blocked as the official spray template has markings for the different size of bases.

 yastobaal wrote:
Sometimes you get these abstractions.

yes, sounds pretty weird, but it isn't a big deal, anyway...

another question: offensive ranged spells on non warlocks (i.e. Nyss Sorceress' lightning), how are resolved? making a RNG attack, or making a check on magic ability of the attacker (thus ignoring target DEF)?

Gabbi wrote:

 yastobaal wrote:
Sometimes you get these abstractions.

yes, sounds pretty weird, but it isn't a big deal, anyway...

another question: offensive ranged spells on non warlocks (i.e. Nyss Sorceress' lightning), how are resolved? making a RNG attack, or making a check on magic ability of the attacker (thus ignoring target DEF)?

Nope. You make a "Magic Attack" roll 2d6+MAGIC ABILITY against the target's defense, in a simliar to fashion to melee and ranged attack rolls just using the magic ability score in place of Mat/Rat. Bonuses that apply to "Magic Attacks" affect it, it is not a "Melee" or "Ranged" attack regardless of the RNG of the spell.

Magic Ability is only ever used for Magic Attack rolls. There isn't any sort of magic skill check invovled.*


*unless at some point they should decide to introduce a model that has a rule like this, but I doubt they will.

Ok, thank you. So the skill check (roll two dice and score less than skill value) is not referred to Magic.

Also, again on Spray. They're blocked only by LoS blocking terrain only? not by blocked LoS, right? That's why a larger model (that would block LoS) will not protect against spray, right?

Gabbi wrote:
Ok, thank you. So the skill check (roll two dice and score less than skill value) is not referred to Magic.

Also, again on Spray. They're blocked only by LoS blocking terrain only? not by blocked LoS, right? That's why a larger model (that would block LoS) will not protect against spray, right?

Cloud Effects could also block your LoS. Really it's just better to think of it as Ignoring intervening models when drawing LoS, as that's what it does. All the other LoS rules apply normally, it just allows you to ignore one step in the usual procedure.

So, a model (with prowl or similar ability) inside a cloud of smoke will not be hit by a flamethrower (spray), while a model behind brick wall will be hit by Carnivean's breath weapon? sounds pretty weird...

Anyway, thanks everyone for help! :thumbs:

Gabbi wrote:
So, a model (with prowl or similar ability) inside a cloud of smoke will not be hit by a flamethrower (spray), while a model behind brick wall will be hit by Carnivean's breath weapon? sounds pretty weird...

Anyway, thanks everyone for help! :thumbs:

Well, the way a cloud works is that it grants Concealment to models inside it. However, like a forest, you can't see all the way through one. So if you have model A on one side of a cloud, and Model B on the other side and not in the cloud, they cannot see each other.

Gabbi wrote:
So, a model (with prowl or similar ability) inside a cloud of smoke will not be hit by a flamethrower (spray), while a model behind brick wall will be hit by Carnivean's breath weapon? sounds pretty weird...

Anyway, thanks everyone for help! :thumbs:

No.

A model inside a cloud of smoke will still be hit by a spray weapon just fine. A model on the other side of a cloud effect will also be hit by a spray attack just fine, because the only thing that stops spray attacks is terrain and a cloud effect is not terrain.

In the same way, if that brick wall is tall enough to completely block LoS to the model on the other side, then it will also block any spray attack.

Thanks everyone for replies

PhantomViper wrote:
A model inside a cloud of smoke will still be hit by a spray weapon just fine. A model on the other side of a cloud effect will also be hit by a spray attack just fine, because the only thing that stops spray attacks is terrain and a cloud effect is not terrain.

Ah ok. This make sense thank you.

In the same way, if that brick wall is tall enough to completely block LoS to the model on the other side, then it will also block any spray attack.

Even in the case the attacker has LoS granted by some ability? (The above example of Carnivean eyeless sight).

Eyeless sight only ignores concealment (and clouds, forests) not cover (i.e. walls). So the forest is a terrain feature and a normal spray is stopped at the end of line of sight (3 inches into the forest). Eyeless sight ignores forests for line of sight and thus the spray goes it's full distance.

Obviously, I have to (re)master again the wording.
Once more, thanks.

Don't worry. It'll come to you with time. Warmachine relies heavily upon the wording. It catches me and my friends out plenty of times and we've been playing pretty heavily for about 2 years now.

Take Acrobatics for example. Plenty of things have this rule and it pretty much allows you to ignore models when you move (there are rules to this but that can be ignored for this). So a model with acrobatics can charge over troops and any size of jack/beast including the colossals/gargantuans. Yet they can't charge across a linear obstacle like a wall.

A model can leap over a hungry mountain troll yet gets stopped by a waist high thorny hedge.

Quick note, you mentioned Prowl in one of your examples...Sprays ignore both Concealment and Stealth, so that model wouldn't be protected either way.

As mentioned, the wording of spells/abilities is both very specific and very clear. They just don't always have to make logical sense.

Thanks!