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Yeah Tome of Fate is a newer FFG book. Amazion or Gaming store/book store should have it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necrons are anathema to change, the very concept is inapplicable to them.

The Changer of Ways despises that.

And yeah, Tome of Fate's Necron fluff >>> 5e Necron codex.

I don't agree at all. Tome of Fate is effective at combining and summarizing the two Necron codices. The only new information is that it is stated that Living Metal is "Entirely resistanct to the mutating effects of the warp" [page 107]. While not badly writen Tome of Fate falls short next to the 5th codex in its details. For example In Tome of Fate it is hinted that the Necrons "Posses the secrets to the fabled Eldar Webway". The 5th ed codex tells us the C'Tan that showed this to the Necrons and names the means by which they access it, "Dolmen Gate". Tome of Fate, is also lacking in the War in Heaven information and as to why the C'Tan are not all powerfull gods currently enslaving the galaxy.

The Old and New codices along with the rest of the Necron's fluff works very well together. There are a few things that need to be tweeked in some old fluff to make it better jive. But most of that is just looking at the exploits of the C'Tan threw the lens of now knowing they were just shards.

Less is more. The Dolmen Gates and the fluff surrounding them both neutered the Necrons as a faction, was well as diminishing their "Anti-Warp" credentials that was such a part of the army (Which was almost entirely absent in the 5e codex).

Wow, you're saying that a full codex has more details about the fluff than twenty pages dedicated to the Necrons in a single book? You don't say...

Why would Tome of Fate beat a dead horse concerning the C'tan? The existence of C'tan shards and why they are shards is already in FFG, as detailed in Hand of Corruption. Also present is the implication that each C'tan shard struggles to break free of their Necron slavers, and if they do so they lash out against their current masters and likely devastate the world they are on.

Also new is detailing their relationship with Tzeentch, and some fluff on Chaos in particular.

The fluff is better written, and yes, it does adequately mesh the better parts of both the new and old codex, in a way that the new codex did not.

Yes, because the Dolmen gates made complete sense and did not introduce a whole heap of plot holes, as well as being a cheap way to make the necrons "weaker"

It does not change the fact that Tome of Fate is a less complete collection of Necron fluff then their 5th ed codex. I would have agreed the Necron's summary in Tome of Fate is a great summary for the race. However it is not better as a whole then the codex.

Not that I would expect it to have more information. But when you seek out information a source with more information is always better then one that much more limited. Still using the Dolmen Gate example. If you only read what Tome of Fate says about the necrons possing the knowledge. Then I would not expect them to have access to the webway without psykers. But instead know a great deal about it. Which is completely wrong.

The Dolmen Gate fluff was a nessassary addition. Without it the Necrons could never defeat the Old Ones. They would have just fled to the webway (Like the DE) and lived there untill they could rebuild their strength. The problem with the fluff is the mention that without the gates the Necrons are "Doomed to isolation". Which is hyperbole and taking it literal is not supported by other sources, some still in print. If the 5th ed Rulebook did not say that the Necrons transgalactic comunication network was destroyed. Then you could have argued the fact. As it currently stands though the Necrons have FTL travel and webway access. Just slower FTL then people would have said they had from reading the 3rd ed codex.

I hope by "Neutered" you mean took away the auto win Necron end game. Otherwise the galaxy would still be on barrowed time waiting for the Necrons to wake up and reclaim everything.

 Stonerhino wrote:
It does not change the fact that Tome of Fate is a less complete collection of Necron fluff then their 5th ed codex. I would have agreed the Necron's summary in Tome of Fate is a great summary for the race. However it is not better as a whole then the codex.

A few pounds of gold is better than a metric ton of Fulgrim's art gallery.

Not that I would expect it to have more information. But when you seek out information a source with more information is always better then one that much more limited. Still using the Dolmen Gate example. If you only read what Tome of Fate says about the necrons possing the knowledge. Then I would not expect them to have access to the webway without psykers. But instead know a great deal about it. Which is completely wrong.

I don't think you are really understanding what I mean by "better". I don't mean better as in, a source for their history. I'd recommend both codices plus ideally Tome of Fate for that, as well as a few sparse bits here and there in other books.

I mean in terms of actual quality.

The Dolmen Gate fluff was a nessassary addition. Without it the Necrons could never defeat the Old Ones. They would have just fled to the webway (Like the DE) and lived there untill they could rebuild their strength. The problem with the fluff is the mention that without the gates the Necrons are "Doomed to isolation". Which is hyperbole and taking it literal is not supported by other sources, some still in print. If the 5th ed Rulebook did not say that the Necrons transgalactic comunication network was destroyed. Then you could have argued the fact. As it currently stands though the Necrons have FTL travel and webway access. Just slower FTL then people would have said they had from reading the 3rd ed codex.

The 3e codex doesn't actually give any concrete gauge of their Inertialess Drive speed, it being touted as "instantaneous" was sort of hyperbole. It was possibly the fastest and the most reliable FTL method in the galaxy, but not the total gamebreaker people spoke of it as.

It isn't hyperbole. They only have their slow-burning torch ships without the Webway now.

And you missed the thematic complaint. Having the Necrons rely on the Warp to travel is thematically against the precedents set in the older fluff. Using Dolmen Gates to access the Webway to defeat the Old Ones, or creating the possibility of attacking the Dark Eldar/Eldar/whatever in their home turf? Sure, that's cool and opens up new possibilities. But having it be their only practical means of travel? No.

I hope by "Neutered" you mean took away the auto win Necron end game. Otherwise the galaxy would still be on barrowed time waiting for the Necrons to wake up and reclaim everything.

Auto win Necron endgame lol.

Chaos and Tyranids have and always had (At least as long as the Necrons have been a faction) the same autowin endgame credentials.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It isn't hyperbole. They only have their slow-burning torch ships without the Webway now.

I keep seeing this brought up, but it really is not true. while it does talk of colonizing the galaxy via torch ships it never says , not once they did not posses FTl of some type. The Necrotyr could not have been a galactic power , and they were indeed united, without some forum of FTL. You can indeed seed a whole galaxy with slow ships in a few million years, you can not however run a galaxy spanning empire. There is a few facts in the book.

* 1 they had torchships for a few million years
* 2: At some point before the C'tan showed up they unified "empires"
* 3: The Dolem gates showed up as tactical weapons after the C'tan had turned them all into Necrons.

By those facts, that simply must have had some type of FTL.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It isn't hyperbole. They only have their slow-burning torch ships without the Webway now.

I keep seeing this brought up, but it really is not true. while it does talk of colonizing the galaxy via torch ships it never says , not once they did not posses FTl of some type. The Necrotyr could not have been a galactic power , and they were indeed united, without some forum of FTL. You can indeed seed a whole galaxy with slow ships in a few million years, you can not however run a galaxy spanning empire. There is a few facts in the book.

* 1 they had torchships for a few million years
* 2: At some point before the C'tan showed up they unified "empires"
* 3: The Dolem gates showed up as tactical weapons after the C'tan had turned them all into Necrons.

By those facts, that simply must have had some type of FTL.

And that's where the plot holes show up.
The new codex states that they must rely on the webway, even though they clearly have the technology for FTL (temporal-spacial manipulation, wormholes, pocket dimensions, you get the point).
This is why the FFG book is superior, imo, as it doesn't say that the necrons must rely on the webway. In fact, I recall it saying that the necrons still possess their FTL tech.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It isn't hyperbole. They only have their slow-burning torch ships without the Webway now.

I keep seeing this brought up, but it really is not true. while it does talk of colonizing the galaxy via torch ships it never says , not once they did not posses FTl of some type. The Necrotyr could not have been a galactic power , and they were indeed united, without some forum of FTL. You can indeed seed a whole galaxy with slow ships in a few million years, you can not however run a galaxy spanning empire. There is a few facts in the book.

* 1 they had torchships for a few million years
* 2: At some point before the C'tan showed up they unified "empires"
* 3: The Dolem gates showed up as tactical weapons after the C'tan had turned them all into Necrons.

By those facts, that simply must have had some type of FTL.

And that's where the plot holes show up.
The new codex states that they must rely on the webway, even though they clearly have the technology for FTL (temporal-spacial manipulation, wormholes, pocket dimensions, you get the point).
This is why the FFG book is superior, imo, as it doesn't say that the necrons must rely on the webway. In fact, I recall it saying that the necrons still possess their FTL tech.

Think about it like this:

Galaxy spaning comunication system = telecommunication network/internet
Webway travel = the mail system
Inertialess Drive = driving there

If we woke up tomorrow and the telephones and internet were gone. We could still operate using the postal system. Its not nearly as effective but we have done it before. And that's the state that the Necrons are currently in. And the webway allows them to send messages to areas that have unactive Dolmen Gates. If they lost access to the webway then they would have to rely on sending actual ships at a much slower rate.

Its the same as saying that the IoM's planets would be isolated if all of the Astropaths died. It has nothing to do with the IoM's ability for faster then light travel. Just their ability to actually run the empire.

The 3rd ed codex gave a rough estemate of the Inertialess Drive's speed. "Cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". Which roughly translates to 100,000-200,000 (halo stars) ly near instantaneously. At least how some fans read it. Making the Necrons by far the fastest navy, possessing the strongest ships and backed up by one of the largest faction's armies of undieing soldiers that could appear almost anywhere. Making any endgame that did not include faction X vs Necrons hilariously inadequate. The 5th ed codex brought the Necrons down to a level where they are competing against other races instead of "When they all wake up they win".

I never understood what was so difficult to understand about the Necron's use of Dolmen Gates. It always seemed simple to me.

Get to somewhere you've never been before via Torch Ship. Set up end point for a gateway. You now have instantaneous travel back to anywhere in your empire (but not beyond it!) that is faster than the webway. the downside is you have to control both ends of the gateway. The Eldar, on the other hand, can pop up almost anywhere via the webway, including in the necron empire, making them more capable of outmaneuvering the necron across the whole galaxy, even though the necrons can move faster within their own territory. The former is great for building and maintaining an empire's supply lines. The latter is great for reaching hard to reach places easily. However, by cracking open the webway via Dolmen Gates, they can use the same tactic the eldar were using against them, and appear deep behind the Eldar's lines. This is not something that could have ever been done with their original gateway system.

60 million years later, the necrons are waking up, and their much faster gateway system is in shambles. Sure they could send out torch ships again to try and reconnect it, but in the meantime, they still have the Dolmen Gates, once a weapon, now a necessity, in order to get around.

See that portal in the middle of a monolith? Just imagine a really big monolith and you've got a Torch Ship. Yes it gives you instantaneous transportation for those using the portal, but the ship's still gotta get there first. FTL tech does not have to mean the ships themselves go FTL. It's just as likely that once you've got a portal there, you can get whatever you need at FTL speed.

TL;DR Necrons built the Stargate system. That counts as FTL.

Yes, I agree the stargate system is a type of FTL, however once they have the tech level to make them they also have the tech level to make FTL. It simply does not fit that they had only torchships.

And what people often over look are the Dolem gates are not really FTL, they are weapons. They are a key to the old one/eldar webway. You can not simply run away once those came into play, they can track you back to home base.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes, I agree the stargate system is a type of FTL, however once they have the tech level to make them they also have the tech level to make FTL. It simply does not fit that they had only torchships.

And what people often over look are the Dolem gates are not really FTL, they are weapons. They are a key to the old one/eldar webway. You can not simply run away once those came into play, they can track you back to home base.

I disagree. If a portal requires a physical beginning and end point, how would you get that end point there in the first place if not with torch ships?

The Dolmen Gates open side doors into the Webway -- the Gates themselves aren't linked, and there aren't many of them left.

I agree that the loss of FTL is strange, especially since the Necrons have technology abound that allow them to cross great distances in an instant.

The Codex also contradicts itself in a few places I think, such as with the damaged station which launches regular attacks on nearby systems. With Dolmen Gates being planetbound, or at least suggested to be, would this not take a very long time?

jareddm wrote:
I never understood what was so difficult to understand about the Necron's use of Dolmen Gates. It always seemed simple to me.

Get to somewhere you've never been before via Torch Ship. Set up end point for a gateway. You now have instantaneous travel back to anywhere in your empire (but not beyond it!) that is faster than the webway. the downside is you have to control both ends of the gateway. The Eldar, on the other hand, can pop up almost anywhere via the webway, including in the necron empire, making them more capable of outmaneuvering the necron across the whole galaxy, even though the necrons can move faster within their own territory. The former is great for building and maintaining an empire's supply lines. The latter is great for reaching hard to reach places easily. However, by cracking open the webway via Dolmen Gates, they can use the same tactic the eldar were using against them, and appear deep behind the Eldar's lines. This is not something that could have ever been done with their original gateway system.

60 million years later, the necrons are waking up, and their much faster gateway system is in shambles. Sure they could send out torch ships again to try and reconnect it, but in the meantime, they still have the Dolmen Gates, once a weapon, now a necessity, in order to get around.

See that portal in the middle of a monolith? Just imagine a really big monolith and you've got a Torch Ship. Yes it gives you instantaneous transportation for those using the portal, but the ship's still gotta get there first. FTL tech does not have to mean the ships themselves go FTL. It's just as likely that once you've got a portal there, you can get whatever you need at FTL speed.

TL;DR Necrons built the Stargate system. That counts as FTL.

The issue is not the building of the empire. That can be done slowly using billions of years if need be. The problem is that after the Necrontyr's defeat by the Old Ones. Their infastructure would have been destroyed. Except in the few places that the Necrontyr gathered. There is no way for a force to face another force when the other force hastrue FTL travel and you do not. Sure the Necrons could have sent out slow moving fleets to push their territory. But the Old Ones would just move the troops they had at the target and instead just attack several Necron locations. Then use their fleets to hunt the Necron fleets enmas.

Imagine WW2 if the Nazis had a modern (2012) airforce with the supplies to maintain it and you would have a good idea of what it would be like for a none FTL army to fight an army with FTL travel. At least as a scale model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drakmord wrote:
The Dolmen Gates open side doors into the Webway -- the Gates themselves aren't linked, and there aren't many of them left.

I agree that the loss of FTL is strange, especially since the Necrons have technology abound that allow them to cross great distances in an instant.

The Codex also contradicts itself in a few places I think, such as with the damaged station which launches regular attacks on nearby systems. With Dolmen Gates being planetbound, or at least suggested to be, would this not take a very long time?

This was further explained in the 5th ed rulebook. The story is that the Overlord in damaged and is only trying to gather resources. So he launched an attack. The attack was repelled so the overlord with drew his troops. Repaired them and reattacked. This attack was repelled so the overlord withdrew his troops. Repaired them and reattacked. The attack was repelled...ect ect. The regular attacks are the time it takes to repair the troops.

 Stonerhino wrote:
The issue is not the building of the empire. That can be done slowly using billions of years if need be. The problem is that after the Necrontyr's defeat by the Old Ones. Their infastructure would have been destroyed. Except in the few places that the Necrontyr gathered. There is no way for a force to face another force when the other force hastrue FTL travel and you do not. Sure the Necrons could have sent out slow moving fleets to push their territory. But the Old Ones would just move the troops they had at the target and instead just attack several Necron locations. Then use their fleets to hunt the Necron fleets enmas.

Imagine WW2 if the Nazis had a modern (2012) airforce with the supplies to maintain it and you would have a good idea of what it would be like for a none FTL army to fight an army with FTL travel. At least as a scale model.

What infrastructure are you even talking about? Wouldn't literally anywhere the necrontyr gathered have a stargate on it? Hence any place with necrontyr would still be linked via the stargates. Any defense of a necron world can be immediately reinforced by any other world still part of the stargate network. the necrontyr are fine on the defense. It's only when the necrontyr try to press the attack into Eldar controlled territory that the Eldar run circles around them. Hence the need for the Dolmen Gate.

As another metaphor, two armies with railway supply lines, no airforce. The necron trains are faster, but they have to take each train station before they can connect rail to use it. The eldar rail can go anywhere and doesn't need a station to stop off somewhere. What the dolmen gates are is a way for the necron to connect up their own railways directly into the Eldar's rails, allowing them to go anywhere the eldar rail originally went.

jareddm wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes, I agree the stargate system is a type of FTL, however once they have the tech level to make them they also have the tech level to make FTL. It simply does not fit that they had only torchships.

And what people often over look are the Dolem gates are not really FTL, they are weapons. They are a key to the old one/eldar webway. You can not simply run away once those came into play, they can track you back to home base.

I disagree. If a portal requires a physical beginning and end point, how would you get that end point there in the first place if not with torch ships?

That is one type. They can make warp gateways, then they can make warp gateways. The gate system is point to point instant, but they can make portals then move though it just as everyone else does as well. There tech they use is leaps and bounds better at doing the same thing as everyone else. Why would they be limited to only one single point to point application of that technology? It simply does not fit. Its like saying ..sure we can make cars, but we are only ever gonna make a bus and nothing else as well, we like the city bus.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes, I agree the stargate system is a type of FTL, however once they have the tech level to make them they also have the tech level to make FTL. It simply does not fit that they had only torchships.

And what people often over look are the Dolem gates are not really FTL, they are weapons. They are a key to the old one/eldar webway. You can not simply run away once those came into play, they can track you back to home base.

I disagree. If a portal requires a physical beginning and end point, how would you get that end point there in the first place if not with torch ships?

That is one type. They can make warp gateways, then they can make warp gateways. The gate system is point to point instant, but they can make portals then move though it just as everyone else does as well. There tech they use is leaps and bounds better at doing the same thing as everyone else. Why would they be limited to only one single point to point application of that technology? It simply does not fit. Its like saying ..sure we can make cars, but we are only ever gonna make a bus and nothing else as well, we like the city bus.

Have you an example of the necrons having such a gateway that was not built into a vehicle or building?

*Veil of Darkness

* Deathmark's teleportation abilities

* Flayed One's teleportation abilities

jareddm wrote:


Have you an example of the necrons having such a gateway that was not built into a vehicle or building?

Can you give an example of any FTl not built into a ship or object? You are missing the point here skippy, that being they have the technology in spades to do the very same FTL everyone else uses.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
*Veil of Darkness

* Deathmark's teleportation abilities

* Flayed One's teleportation abilities

All short range and not interplanetary.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Can you give an example of any FTl not built into a ship or object? You are missing the point here skippy, that being they have the technology in spades to do the very same FTL everyone else uses.

You seem to be trying to say that the necrons have FTL contained within neither. How am I missing the point if it's clearly not the same FTL everyone else uses, if everyone else uses the warp?

If they can capture wormholes, they have far exceeded anyone else tech level. They are well advanced of someone like say the Tau, who have warp travel. They are the oldest "living" race, even the Eldar know how to use to warp if they wished, they do not want to and do not need to. WarP travel is something civilizations unlock at an age , much, much, much younger then the Necrons.

Well via the Orrery they have the ability to make any star in the galaxy go supernova simply by putting out a light on a map. Surely they could develop FTL technology with that amazing (and incredibly stupid) power.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
If they can capture wormholes, they have far exceeded anyone else tech level. They are well advanced of someone like say the Tau, who have warp travel. They are the oldest "living" race, even the Eldar know how to use to warp if they wished, they do not want to and do not need to. WarP travel is something civilizations unlock at an age , much, much, much younger then the Necrons.

Actually the Tau don't have warp travel. Much like the Necrons, their presence in the warp is very limited.

jareddm wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
The issue is not the building of the empire. That can be done slowly using billions of years if need be. The problem is that after the Necrontyr's defeat by the Old Ones. Their infastructure would have been destroyed. Except in the few places that the Necrontyr gathered. There is no way for a force to face another force when the other force hastrue FTL travel and you do not. Sure the Necrons could have sent out slow moving fleets to push their territory. But the Old Ones would just move the troops they had at the target and instead just attack several Necron locations. Then use their fleets to hunt the Necron fleets enmas.

Imagine WW2 if the Nazis had a modern (2012) airforce with the supplies to maintain it and you would have a good idea of what it would be like for a none FTL army to fight an army with FTL travel. At least as a scale model.

What infrastructure are you even talking about? Wouldn't literally anywhere the necrontyr gathered have a stargate on it? Hence any place with necrontyr would still be linked via the stargates. Any defense of a necron world can be immediately reinforced by any other world still part of the stargate network. the necrontyr are fine on the defense. It's only when the necrontyr try to press the attack into Eldar controlled territory that the Eldar run circles around them. Hence the need for the Dolmen Gate.

As another metaphor, two armies with railway supply lines, no airforce. The necron trains are faster, but they have to take each train station before they can connect rail to use it. The eldar rail can go anywhere and doesn't need a station to stop off somewhere. What the dolmen gates are is a way for the necron to connect up their own railways directly into the Eldar's rails, allowing them to go anywhere the eldar rail originally went.

You have a "Stargate" at the location that an enemy army just took over. Who has no need for your "Stargate". Do you really believe that the invading army is not just going to destroy the gate??? There by preventing you from returning the that area. At which point they would have years, decades even centuries to lay waste to the planet and move on before you could do anything about it. Hitting a few "Hubs" and the stargate system falls apart.

A gate system can be used to run an empire. However it can never compete with an enemy who can travel FTL with their navy. It even has severe limits when used defencively.

 Stonerhino wrote:

jareddm wrote:

What infrastructure are you even talking about? Wouldn't literally anywhere the necrontyr gathered have a stargate on it? Hence any place with necrontyr would still be linked via the stargates. Any defense of a necron world can be immediately reinforced by any other world still part of the stargate network. the necrontyr are fine on the defense. It's only when the necrontyr try to press the attack into Eldar controlled territory that the Eldar run circles around them. Hence the need for the Dolmen Gate.

As another metaphor, two armies with railway supply lines, no airforce. The necron trains are faster, but they have to take each train station before they can connect rail to use it. The eldar rail can go anywhere and doesn't need a station to stop off somewhere. What the dolmen gates are is a way for the necron to connect up their own railways directly into the Eldar's rails, allowing them to go anywhere the eldar rail originally went.

You have a "Stargate" at the location that an enemy army just took over. Who has no need for your "Stargate". Do you really believe that the invading army is not just going to destroy the gate??? There by preventing you from returning the that area. At which point they would have years, decades even centuries to lay waste to the planet and move on before you could do anything about it. Hitting a few "Hubs" and the stargate system falls apart.

A gate system can be used to run an empire. However it can never compete with an enemy who can travel FTL with their navy. It even has severe limits when used defencively.

I don't think we're actually in disagreement over anything, in which case I apologize for my statement earlier. The Necrons were most likely losing before the C'tan showed them the Dolmen Gates, exactly for the reasons that you describe. Like you said, their stargate infrastructure would've been all but destroyed by the end of the war, leaving them with the Dolmen Gates as the only viable option, since sending a ship would take an unacceptable amount of time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Actually the Tau don't have warp travel. Much like the Necrons, their presence in the warp is very limited.

They in fact, do use warp travel. They simply do not use deep warp as they can not navigate it. They "Skim" the edge of the warp, but it is a type of warp travel.

jareddm wrote:

The Necrons were most likely losing before the C'tan showed them the Dolmen Gates, exactly for the reasons that you describe.

No, not really. It was not a lack or destruction of star gates, but the very same reason no warp travel Empire/race can pin down the Eldar. The webway make it so they battle only when and where they decide. They are massive tactical weapons, you pick when and where and with what forces you battle , every single time and you flee when and how you want with zero chance of being chased. FTL or no FTL webway beats everything else tactically . The Dolem gates were weapons and what they did was not allow FTL travel, but take away the old one/Eldar advantage and turn it upon them.

jareddm wrote:
The Necrons were most likely losing before the C'tan showed them the Dolmen Gates, exactly for the reasons that you describe.

This was more of the C'tan's way of saying, "You can't hide from us!" to the Old Ones and their warp-tuned spawn.

Several problems with the new Sleep reason.
1. The new fluff removed the part where if a Necron is destroyed it get put in a new body. Now they are machines with no means of replenishing numbers. Going into a stasis which leaves you further vulnerable to destruction will only further diminish numbers.
2. The time frame no longer matches. The 60 million years matched up to allowing the galaxy to repopulate, especially since the Old Ones had laid countless seeds for new species. Sentient aces to a long time to evolve. Now waiting 60 million for a single race to die out is over kill, and makes the chances that an even more powerful race could be there. And the 60 million years doesn't really match up with the Eldar fluff IIRC.

Both I agree with.

I don't understand either why Necrons couldn't have kept their FTL drives, but in depleted numbers due to only being the remnants of a civilization, and being stuck with what could be stashed away before the great sleep. An army which has such high technology as to look like magic should have the space-borne equivalent of that technology, but like anything with the Necrons in the current era, only have access to a shadow of the numbers from before the sleep.

But keep that "shadow" the old style threat.

jareddm wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

jareddm wrote:

What infrastructure are you even talking about? Wouldn't literally anywhere the necrontyr gathered have a stargate on it? Hence any place with necrontyr would still be linked via the stargates. Any defense of a necron world can be immediately reinforced by any other world still part of the stargate network. the necrontyr are fine on the defense. It's only when the necrontyr try to press the attack into Eldar controlled territory that the Eldar run circles around them. Hence the need for the Dolmen Gate.

As another metaphor, two armies with railway supply lines, no airforce. The necron trains are faster, but they have to take each train station before they can connect rail to use it. The eldar rail can go anywhere and doesn't need a station to stop off somewhere. What the dolmen gates are is a way for the necron to connect up their own railways directly into the Eldar's rails, allowing them to go anywhere the eldar rail originally went.

You have a "Stargate" at the location that an enemy army just took over. Who has no need for your "Stargate". Do you really believe that the invading army is not just going to destroy the gate??? There by preventing you from returning the that area. At which point they would have years, decades even centuries to lay waste to the planet and move on before you could do anything about it. Hitting a few "Hubs" and the stargate system falls apart.

A gate system can be used to run an empire. However it can never compete with an enemy who can travel FTL with their navy. It even has severe limits when used defencively.

I don't think we're actually in disagreement over anything, in which case I apologize for my statement earlier. The Necrons were most likely losing before the C'tan showed them the Dolmen Gates, exactly for the reasons that you describe. Like you said, their stargate infrastructure would've been all but destroyed by the end of the war, leaving them with the Dolmen Gates as the only viable option, since sending a ship would take an unacceptable amount of time.

It was in responce to you asking "What infrastructure are you even talking about". So I explained it.

The C'Tan gifted the Necrontyr with 3 things before they renewed their war with the Old Ones. They were weapons of god-like power, ships that could "Cross the Galaxy in a blink of an eye" and the biotransfer. The Dolmen Gates don't come into play until late in the war. Its also stated that the Old Ones were still alive in the Necron dominated galaxy. Which means that the Necrons had to have a way to travel fast enough to at the very least severely limit the speed advantage offered by the webway. And that would be beyond impossible without FTL travel. While the new fluff limits that speed somewhat it does not eliminate the Necron's FTL capabilities. Rather it gives their speed a limit.

@Tau FTL travel. The Tau do not breach the warp/real barrier. So it is not true warp travel. Even if it needs the warp to work its "Bending" of physics to allow for its travel speed.

 Stonerhino wrote:


@Tau FTL travel. The Tau do not breach the warp/real barrier. So it is not true warp travel. Even if it needs the warp to work its "Bending" of physics to allow for its travel speed.

That is just semantics man. It is still a form of warp travel as uses the warp to achieve FTL. It may not be the same way the Imperuim does it, but might not be all that odd from per dark age man. Anyhow it really just illustrates a point. If a race with a few hundred worlds and just 6'000 years are a civilized race can manage FTL, then one millions of years old and galaxy spanning ( as a living race) could do so. Much less one that can harness wormholes and make stars go boom.