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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?

I don't know why the US border agents would need to be involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
Yeah, this really stops being a story about quirky foreign justice when they start trying to extort money from you using death threats. Then it starts being about being kidnapped.

Yeah, exactly. Is the part where they put him in a cartel-controlled wing of the prison and started calling his family telling them to wire money to a Western Union account part of the Mexican law he should have been following too?

They failed to give the correct information to the traveller, which provided the pretext for him to be arrested.

This could have been simple incompetence, of course, but the same could be said at each point of the chain.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
They failed to give the correct information to the traveller, which provided the pretext for him to be arrested.

This could have been simple incompetence, of course, but the same could be said at each point of the chain.

Was it really incorrect information? It's almost like your saying a dirty mexican cop couldn't be a part of this situation...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?

Nope just know how Mexican cops work. Which is why the US Border Agent gave the individual in question the information he did. Because that shotgun is legal, and the procedure the individual was following was the proper procedure to take to bring the weapon into the country. We can safely assume this individual gave the Marine the right information because his entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out of Mexico legally and how Mexican and US law interacts.

We don't know. The point at issue is the length of the shotgun barrel.

It's almost like you are saying a clean american cop couldn't be part of this situation.

chaos0xomega wrote:
You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.

Yeah, no. A "couple of inches in measurement" will get you sent to jail in this country - it's a serious felony. A 2-inch short, 16" shotgun barrel can get you 10 years without the appropriate stamps.

Its proving difficult to find any information on this other than the origianl (biased) article.

The moral of this story is; don't go on holiday with a shotgun.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Kyoto did you read a single sentence of the article? He was carrying paperwork and following procedure to carry the weapon across the border. I dont know if youve ever been in a "third world" (northern mexico certainly qualifies) country, crooked and corrupt cops that do this sort of thing in order to extort money, etc. are the norm. Generally speaking, if he has paperwork for it and is attempting to bring a weapon into a country LEGALLY, standard procedure would be to confiscate the weapon and let him off with a warning, maybe detain them temporarily, NOT arrest them and send them to prison.

Let's see

The reason might seem ludicrous. Hammar took a six-decade-old shotgun into Mexico. The .410 bore Sears & Roebuck shotgun once belonged to his great-grandfather. The firearm had been handed down through the generations, and it had become almost a part of Hammar, suitable for shooting birds and rabbits.

But Mexican prosecutors who looked at the disassembled relic in the 1972 Winnebago motor home dismissed the U.S. registration papers Hammar had filled out. They charged him with a serious crime: possession of a weapon restricted for use to Mexico’s armed forces.

...

The issue of the shotgun came up near the border.

“I told him that we probably shouldn’t take the shotgun with us,” McDonough said. “And he said, ‘No, I’m going to get it cleared with customs at the gate.’ So I said, ‘That’s fine. As long as it’s legit.’ ”

The Customs and Border Protection agent said it was all right to take the shotgun, McDonough said, adding that the agent told them: “ ‘All you have to do is register it.’ So they gave us a piece of paper and said, ‘This is your registration. You’ve got to pay this much.’ They gave us the piece of paper to give to the Mexican authorities.”

According to the article he had US registration for the gun and papers from US CBP. Nothing about a Mexican registration for the gun. US Customs cannot give someone permission to bring a gun into another country. Even his friend thought this was a bad idea.

I live in Trinidad, I've lived in Guyana and the PRC and y'know what I learned, you fething better follow the laws of the country you're in, not the laws of your home country.

Trinidad for example does not allow people to import cameoflauge clothing. At all. Strange law, I'm sure they have their reasons so y'know what, I don't. Same with swords.

The punishment seems harsh, and sure there might be corruption but at the end of day millions of Americans travel to Mexico every year without trouble. I bet they're not insisting on carrying shotguns when they do.

Oh and...

Frantic, the Hammars contacted U.S. diplomats, who helped get their son out of a general cellblock into solitary confinement. They didn’t pay the extortion. Nor did they speak to the news media until now.

“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.

...

So far, Hammar’s parents have gotten little help from U.S. diplomats.

“They take a real hands-off approach. Unless your life is at threat, they aren’t going to do anything,” Olivia Hammar said.

So which is it? Did US Diplomats save his life by getting him away from the drug cartel or did they offer little help?

Cause y'know all an Embassy can do is make sure their rights UNDER LOCAL LAW are observed. They can't spring people from jail.

This article has a huge chip on its shoulder and all kinds of logical errors the big one being this idea that Americans can take guns into foreign countries as long as they're old, or used for shooting birds or the American in question is a great guy.


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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
That's the thing, this guy was APPROVED by MEXICAN authority.

Till he got to the border.

Where does it say this? Where?

He had documents from US Customs and Border Patrol, who are not the Mexican government. Did he research Mexican gun laws? Talk to a Mexican consulate?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

yellowfever wrote:I dont know why Americans have to keep putting up with Mexico's bull crap. They get all kinds of hook ups on our side but Americans get boned in Mexico. It's bs.

djones520 wrote:[

I really hope you come back in here and recant on this, because you just lost a lot of cool points in my book. Read the story next time please.

These two side by side are why this article struck such a raw nerve.

If the article was something like "Hammar was arrested for breaking Mexican law but the way he's being treated is deplorable" I'd be with them. Instead it spends most of the time trying to delegitimize Mexican law and excuse Hammar. And then there are posters saying some Marines ought to just go down there, shoot up a Mexican jail and bust him out.



If anyone remembers anything I write here it should be this, obey the laws of the country you are in. Find out what they are before you cross the border, because yes, you are subject to them. Even in 3rd world countries, even in dictatorships you are subject to them. Some are irrational, some are downright evil, many are inconsistently applied, but yes, you must obey them.

Pull him out and flatten the entire useless country.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Pull him out and flatten the entire useless country.

...and this is why we read the article instead of skimming over the posts of other users

Relapse wrote:
I'm looking more into this story and finding out whoto write to about this guy. I f enough people do, it might light a fire under somebody's ass to get this man out of that hellhole

Definitely post it if you find someone. I'll write, know a lot of people who'll write.

 Ouze wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.

Yeah, no. A "couple of inches in measurement" will get you sent to jail in this country - it's a serious felony. A 2-inch short, 16" shotgun barrel can get you 10 years without the appropriate stamps.

I know someone that was in a similar situation in the US, they sure as hell didnt go to prison. There was this thing called an investigation and a court hearing...

Kyoto, i've looked up Mexican gun law, the weapon is in the clear (aside from the technicality of differing barrel measurement) and he followed procedure on the US side of the border. It apparently isnt strictly necessary but highly recommended to have the written consent of appropriate government officials to import the weapon. Standard procedure for Mexican authorities when dealing with an unauthorized weapons is to confiscate the weapon and vehicle and deport the person for up to 1 year. What he is going through now seems to be the punishment reserved for smugglers which he is not if he declared it...

This guy isn't in the US, and I assume he went to Mexico of his own free will?

 MrDwhitey wrote:
This guy isn't in the US, and I assume he went to Mexico of his own free will?

Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?

 Huffy wrote:
Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?

What did he do that was stupid or a violation of Mexican law?

I found this site:

http://miamiswimming.com/2012/12/08/help-get-jon-hammar-home-please-help/

Brought the shotgun, apparently.

Found this also:

http://tweetwood.com/RosLehtinen/tweet/277102004097126400

 Mannahnin wrote:
Brought the shotgun, apparently.

That right?

So it seems, based on the info presented to us.

 Seaward wrote:

 Huffy wrote:
Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?

What did he do that was stupid or a violation of Mexican law?

He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering

 Huffy wrote:
He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering

Personally, I wouldn't go into Mexico without a gun, myself, precisely because of the amount of violence Mexico's been suffering. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

It's certainly legal to bring firearms into Mexico - including shotguns, as long as they meet barrel length requirements and aren't anything beyond 12 gauge - but whether or not this guy had the necessary temporary permit is up in the air.

Regardless, if the story about being kept chained to his bed in solitary and ransomed is true, I don't much care if he had the permit or not. That's pretty indefensible on the part of Mexican authorities.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah man, invade and annex I say, just like we should have at the end of the Mexican-American War!

To be fair, I live in a primarily Latino neighborhood and the Mexicans here hate what is going on down there as much or more than most on this board do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

 Huffy wrote:
He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering

Personally, I wouldn't go into Mexico without a gun, myself, precisely because of the amount of violence Mexico's been suffering. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

It's certainly legal to bring firearms into Mexico - including shotguns, as long as they meet barrel length requirements and aren't anything beyond 12 gauge - but whether or not this guy had the necessary temporary permit is up in the air.

Regardless, if the story about being kept chained to his bed in solitary and ransomed is true, I don't much care if he had the permit or not. That's pretty indefensible on the part of Mexican authorities.

From what I get told, I wouldn't go to Mexico with or without a gun, but you are correct about the whole chained to a bunk thing. I wonder if it was done as part of standard procedure for any new prisoner? I'll ask some people I know that worked with law enforcement down there.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

If the article was something like "Hammar was arrested for breaking Mexican law but the way he's being treated is deplorable" I'd be with them. Instead it spends most of the time trying to delegitimize Mexican law and excuse Hammar. And then there are posters saying some Marines ought to just go down there, shoot up a Mexican jail and bust him out.



If anyone remembers anything I write here it should be this, obey the laws of the country you are in. Find out what they are before you cross the border, because yes, you are subject to them. Even in 3rd world countries, even in dictatorships you are subject to them. Some are irrational, some are downright evil, many are inconsistently applied, but yes, you must obey them.

I would say him being put into a prison run by a drug cartel, handcuffed to a bed, and the people running the prison either calling his folks and attempting to extort money via death threats or allowing it to happen does a fairly good job of 'delegitimizing Mexican law'. A point you continue to avoid addressing. That stops being a legitimate punishment for breaking a law, and becomes more crime. I am fairly certain that Mexico has laws against kidnapping and extortion. Maybe not enforced strictly, but they're probably on the books. Is this one of those 'inconsistently applied laws' that are still okay because it's their country?

chaos0xomega wrote:


Kyoto, i've looked up Mexican gun law, the weapon is in the clear (aside from the technicality of differing barrel measurement) and he followed procedure on the US side of the border. It apparently isnt strictly necessary but highly recommended to have the written consent of appropriate government officials to import the weapon. Standard procedure for Mexican authorities when dealing with an unauthorized weapons is to confiscate the weapon and vehicle and deport the person for up to 1 year. What he is going through now seems to be the punishment reserved for smugglers which he is not if he declared it...

I'm not this guy's lawyer nor an expert on Mexican gun law. With luck he'll be found not guilty, on the face of it the punishment seems excessive.

It's the attitude of the article and some posters here that hits a raw nerve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:



I would say him being put into a prison run by a drug cartel, handcuffed to a bed, and the people running the prison either calling his folks and attempting to extort money via death threats or allowing it to happen does a fairly good job of 'delegitimizing Mexican law'. A point you continue to avoid addressing. That stops being a legitimate punishment for breaking a law, and becomes more crime. I am fairly certain that Mexico has laws against kidnapping and extortion. Maybe not enforced strictly, but they're probably on the books. Is this one of those 'inconsistently applied laws' that are still okay because it's their country?

From my very first post:

As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.

But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.

I don't know enough about the arrest to know if he was arrested legally. If people are actually calling his parents and demanding money for his release, I think it's a hilariously ill-conceived defense to claim it's not kidnapping.

Hmm

It's not if prisons everywhere have gang problems is it.....

And there's no proof that whoever called his parents had any influence over the prison or what happened there.

It's quite plausable a criminal in the prison talked to friends on the outside and said

'there's a foreign prisoner in here, I bet we could scam money out of his family'

There COULD be drug cartel involvement,
there COULD be gang involvement,
It COULD even be a scam by the family to try and get him out (I'm NOT saying it is, just that from the info we are given it's a possibility)

from what we've given we just don't know

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Hmm

It's not if prisons everywhere have gang problems is it.....

And there's no proof that whoever called his parents had any influence over the prison or what happened there.

It's quite plausable a criminal in the prison talked to friends on the outside and said

'there's a foreign prisoner in here, I bet we could scam money out of his family'

There COULD be drug cartel involvement,
there COULD be gang involvement,
It COULD even be a scam by the family to try and get him out (I'm NOT saying it is, just that from the info we are given it's a possibility)

from what we've given we just don't know

“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.

 Bromsy wrote:

“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.

True? False? This statement is after all from the lawyer hired by the family who have an interest in making the situation appear worse than it may actually be.

All that we have to go on are a handful of dubious newspaper articles. If there was something more sinister going on why is it so hard to find this story via google, surely this is the thing that Fox would be all over like flies round gak.

Kilkrazy wrote:Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?

No, this would likely be a crime of opportunity from the Mexican side.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?

Nope just know how Mexican cops work. Which is why the US Border Agent gave the individual in question the information he did. Because that shotgun is legal, and the procedure the individual was following was the proper procedure to take to bring the weapon into the country. We can safely assume this individual gave the Marine the right information because his entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out of Mexico legally and how Mexican and US law interacts.

Uh, no, it's actually not. The US border agent's entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out the USA. There is a very, very big difference.