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Made in dk
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack



Denmark

If I take an eldar corsair prince as part of my desperate allies for my orks, is he then able to deepstrike, say meganobz in their dedicated battlewagon/deffdred and a unit of killakans?

The reason Im in doubt is because of the wording of the ability. " If your army is led by a corsair prince, then they may conduct daring low altitude orbital raids, deploying weapons and units with shocking speed into the heart of the enemy. Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army.. may deepstrike"

Q: Does he only grant deepstrike when he is the warlord? "army led by a corsair prince"

Q: Does he only grant it to allies chosen as part of the same chart as himself? " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army"

Q: If he was part of the main force, could he then deepstrike the allied orks? meganobz in their dedicated battlewagon a deffdred and a unit of killakans?

Thank you for your time
   
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Chicago, IL

Britneyfan12 wrote:
If I take an eldar corsair prince as part of my desperate allies for my orks, is he then able to deepstrike, say meganobz in their dedicated battlewagon/deffdred and a unit of killakans?

No, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units.
Britneyfan12 wrote:

The reason Im in doubt is because of the wording of the ability. " If your army is led by a corsair prince, then they may conduct daring low altitude orbital raids, deploying weapons and units with shocking speed into the heart of the enemy. Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army.. may deepstrike"

Q[1]: Does he only grant deepstrike when he is the warlord? "army led by a corsair prince"

Q[2]: Does he only grant it to allies chosen as part of the same chart as himself? " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army"

Q[3]: If he was part of the main force, could he then deepstrike the allied orks? meganobz in their dedicated battlewagon a deffdred and a unit of killakans?

Thank you for your time


1) That seems to be the best way to interpret it, but it may mean if he is included in the army.

2) He grants it only to his army. Maybe battle brothers but the jury is still out.

3) No, as "Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army.. may deepstrike" taken in context with the Eldar codex, means Eldar units.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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1: i dont believe that was intended to be a rule. Rather it was meant to be part of the fluffy text IA11 was pre-6th and FW would not have access to the beta versions of 6th like the cron codex.

2&3 I have gone back and forth on this.

Are allies part of the same army? I would say Yes because we assume you are always bringing one arty to every fight. You would never have a tourniment say "two armies allowed" and then you assume an army and its ally. Same way posting "no two armies" would be confusing. We group one codex with its allies as one army.

Are allies part of the force org chart? Page 109 clearly shows that it is. Therefore i actually believe you can deepstrike any ally you take, even desperate. There is no differentiation between battle brothers and desperate allies. However, it is very cheesy and does not fit with the fluff at all.

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Chicago, IL

P 109 also says"If your codex contains the primary detachment section of the Force Organisation chart, the allied detachment and fortification sections will not be present, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications."

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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I think you are reading that wrong. It is saying that the individual codexes do not have the fortification rules or the ally rules. Look to the BRB or individual codexes for that. Otherwise the "or fortifications" at the end doesnt really make sense. Its telling you where to look for rules, not specifying what confers.

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Chicago, IL

It says each codex does not have the rules for allied detachments or fortifications, then it explains why.

The explanation is that "individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications."

So individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units. You must look in the codex for your allies to get the rules for your allies.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Stephens City, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says each codex does not have the rules for allied detachments or fortifications, then it explains why.

The explanation is that "individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications."

So individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units. You must look in the codex for your allies to get the rules for your allies.


Obviously I won't find the rules for Blood Angels Librarians in Codex:Orks.
I feel you're reading too far into it.

Otherwise why have this?

"The enemy deploys as
normal, as do any units in your army not belonging to the
detachment chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons."

Chaos Daemons FAQ. It's an errata to Daemonic Assault.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/10 16:38:38


   
Made in dk
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Denmark

Thank you both for your replies.
After rereading the BRB, I clearly get the impression that the force organisation chart is comprimised of a primary detachment and an optional allied detachment (and an optional fortification).
Meaning that with " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army" its possible to take them from both the primary and the allied detachment.

Just as Zephoid, I believe the " If your army is led by a corsair prince" is mainly fluff and not a rule, otherwise a second prince wouldnt gain the sky raider rule, if only 1 of them could lead the force. But Im still not too certain on that one :/
   
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Chicago, IL

Because the definition of army is twofold.

The BRB defines army as the collective force made up of the Primary and allied detachments.

Each Codex defines army as the units within their respective codexes.

So in context of any given codex the abilities within will usually only work for that specific codex (and possibly battle brothers, though most abilities have been FAQ'd to only affect units from said codex).
Britneyfan12 wrote:

After rereading the BRB, I clearly get the impression that the force organisation chart is comprimised of a primary detachment and an optional allied detachment (and an optional fortification).
Meaning that with " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army" its possible to take them from both the primary and the allied detachment.

That is not true as the Eldar codex can not affect Orks, It might work if they were battle bro's, but not for anything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/10 16:49:33


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Stephens City, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because the definition of army is twofold.

The BRB defines army as the collective force made up of the Primary and allied detachments.

Each Codex defines army as the units within their respective codexes.

So in context of any given codex the abilities within will usually only work for that specific codex (and possibly battle brothers, though most abilities have been FAQ'd to only affect units from said codex).


I do agree to usually, I feel that some will work on "friendly" however most/if not all should not work on "enemy" units.
I'm honestly not trying to break the game or cause issues.

Your army is your army primary and allied.
So if something says it effects your army, it should do so unless faq'd or because it only effects certain aspects of your army.

   
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Chicago, IL

It really is just a big mess because of the Codex > BRB when there is a conflict business.

The ethical choice is to take the least advantageous interpretation.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Stephens City, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:

So in context of any given codex the abilities within will usually only work for that specific codex (and possibly battle brothers, though most abilities have been FAQ'd to only affect units from said codex).
Britneyfan12 wrote:

After rereading the BRB, I clearly get the impression that the force organisation chart is comprimised of a primary detachment and an optional allied detachment (and an optional fortification).
Meaning that with " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army" its possible to take them from both the primary and the allied detachment.

That is not true as the Eldar codex can not affect Orks, It might work if they were battle bro's, but not for anything else.


Where does it state they cannot effect orks? The allies chart doesn't cover this does it?

Although it only lists examples, this seems arguable at the very least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It really is just a big mess because of the Codex > BRB when there is a conflict business.

The ethical choice is to take the least advantageous interpretation.


I couldn't agree more to this conclusion. That's why I like to discuss it with a group of people at our LGS and determine the "legality" of it.

Kind of a round table, no dice offs, no lawyering (not much of at least), we get together play a couple games, than work out any rules that have been bugging us.

Our TO gets the final say of course, but he at least likes to hear us out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/10 16:57:44


   
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Chicago, IL

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

So in context of any given codex the abilities within will usually only work for that specific codex (and possibly battle brothers, though most abilities have been FAQ'd to only affect units from said codex).
Britneyfan12 wrote:

After rereading the BRB, I clearly get the impression that the force organisation chart is comprimised of a primary detachment and an optional allied detachment (and an optional fortification).
Meaning that with " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army" its possible to take them from both the primary and the allied detachment.

That is not true as the Eldar codex can not affect Orks, It might work if they were battle bro's, but not for anything else.


Where does it state they cannot effect orks? The allies chart doesn't cover this does it?

Although it only lists examples, this seems arguable at the very least.
The permissive ruleset must say you can otherwise you can not. That is why, because it does not say you can affect Orks.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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it is permitted though. In 6th all references to your army is defined as what ever you bring to the table, or basically your army list.

is your army is led by a corsair prince? is he your warlord?

ergo you have permission to do it.

That being said I can't see this lasting past the next set of FAQ's. My fngs has already ruled it like deathreaper says. Your codex applies to just the detachment its in. But til its FAQ'd its legit.

 
   
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Stephens City, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

So in context of any given codex the abilities within will usually only work for that specific codex (and possibly battle brothers, though most abilities have been FAQ'd to only affect units from said codex).
Britneyfan12 wrote:

After rereading the BRB, I clearly get the impression that the force organisation chart is comprimised of a primary detachment and an optional allied detachment (and an optional fortification).
Meaning that with " Any 3 units of the owning players choice chosen as part of the force org chart for the army" its possible to take them from both the primary and the allied detachment.

That is not true as the Eldar codex can not affect Orks, It might work if they were battle bro's, but not for anything else.


Where does it state they cannot effect orks? The allies chart doesn't cover this does it?

Although it only lists examples, this seems arguable at the very least.
The permissive ruleset must say you can otherwise you can not. That is why, because it does not say you can affect Orks.


It says you can effect your army, your army has orks.

It effects your orks.

   
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Chicago, IL

sirlynchmob wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It says you can effect your army, your army has orks.

It effects your orks.


it is permitted though. In 6th all references to your army is defined as what ever you bring to the table, or basically your army list.

is your army is led by a corsair prince? is he your warlord?

ergo you have permission to do it.

That being said I can't see this lasting past the next set of FAQ's. My fngs has already ruled it like deathreaper says. Your codex applies to just the detachment its in. But til its FAQ'd its legit.

No it is not "Legit" your army, in the context of the Eldar book, means Eldar units, Not Ork units.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Stephens City, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It says you can effect your army, your army has orks.

It effects your orks.


it is permitted though. In 6th all references to your army is defined as what ever you bring to the table, or basically your army list.

is your army is led by a corsair prince? is he your warlord?

ergo you have permission to do it.

That being said I can't see this lasting past the next set of FAQ's. My fngs has already ruled it like deathreaper says. Your codex applies to just the detachment its in. But til its FAQ'd its legit.

No it is not "Legit" your army, in the context of the Eldar book, means Eldar units, Not Ork units.


Which is odd, considering I found a faq that shows a definition of your army that includes both detachments.

   
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Denmark

Ok, I might be a bit biased, as I would like this to work But Im siding with James Dean here. If my army is composed of orks and corsairs, and I can choose 3 units from my army, then I should be able to choose some greenskins.
I know IA would see no reason to specify " eldar corsairs only" at the time, because there were no ally system at the time.
Maybe it will get FAQed to corsairs only, or friendly units only ( so battlebrothers can get the benefit too), but right now, it should work on all units in the army, no matter what codex they are from. But I can see Deathreaper dont believe its RAI. But you must admit, its atleast RAW right?

Sirlynchmob, would you then say only the warlord prince gets the ability?, what if there are 2 princes, is it still only 3 units?

I can see the majority thinks its either cheesy/unfluffy or not allowed though, hhhmm I might have to rethink my grand plan then

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/10 20:54:03


 
   
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Britneyfan12 wrote:
Ok, I might be a bit biased, as I would like this to work But Im siding with James Dean here. If my army is composed of orks and corsairs, and I can choose 3 units from my army, then I should be able to choose some greenskins.
I know IA would see no reason to specify " eldar corsairs only" at the time, because there were no ally system at the time.
Maybe it will get FAQed to corsairs only, or friendly units only ( so battlebrothers can get the benefit too), but right now, it should work on all units in the army, no matter what codex they are from. But I can see Deathreaper dont believe its RAI. But you must admit, its atleast RAW right?

Sirlynchmob, would you then say only the warlord prince gets the ability?, what if there are 2 princes, is it still only 3 units?


well only one could lead so; yes just the warlord for only 3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/10 20:50:38


 
   
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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Which is odd, considering I found a faq that shows a definition of your army that includes both detachments.

Yes, the word "army" as used in a 6th edition book/update refers to both detachments.
The word "army" as used in any other situation cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.

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Chicago, IL

rigeld2 wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Which is odd, considering I found a faq that shows a definition of your army that includes both detachments.

Yes, the word "army" as used in a 6th edition book/update refers to both detachments.
The word "army" as used in any other situation cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.
Exactly this.

The word "army" as used in a 6th edition book/update refers to both detachments. But the Eldar book is not a 6th edition book.

When they use the word "army" in the Eldar Codex it cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.
Britneyfan12 wrote:
Ok, I might be a bit biased, as I would like this to work But Im siding with James Dean here. If my army is composed of orks and corsairs, and I can choose 3 units from my army, then I should be able to choose some greenskins.
I know IA would see no reason to specify " eldar corsairs only" at the time, because there were no ally system at the time.
Maybe it will get FAQed to corsairs only, or friendly units only ( so battlebrothers can get the benefit too), but right now, it should work on all units in the army, no matter what codex they are from. But I can see Deathreaper dont believe its RAI. But you must admit, its atleast RAW right?

Incorrect as I have cited above. the RAW mean that units from the Ork codex do not benefit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/10 21:04:45


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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 DeathReaper wrote:
When they use the word "army" in the Eldar Codex it cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.

By that logic, any codex written before 6th edition that refers to a USR can't use the 6th edition version of that USR, since it didn't exist when the codex was written.


If the meaning of a term has changed, the new meaning applies. You can't only apply the new meaning to anything written after a specific date. That way lies madness. Given that we know that GW do write some codexes with wording to comply with a pending new edition, how do we tell which codexes are written with the 5th edition definition of 'army' and which are using the 6th edition definition?

Simply put, we don't. We just use the definition that applies to this edition of the game, just as we use the 6th edition definition of Furious Charge/Assault/Fandango/Whatever.

 
   
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Chicago, IL

 insaniak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When they use the word "army" in the Eldar Codex it cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.

By that logic, any codex written before 6th edition that refers to a USR can't use the 6th edition version of that USR, since it didn't exist when the codex was written.

Not true, as long as the USR has the same name, it works just fine within the current ruleset. Unless a unit has Rage, and tells you exactly what rage does, then Codex trumps BRB.

Basically, as I have said before, It really is just a big mess because of the Codex > BRB when there is a conflict business.

The ethical choice is to take the least advantageous interpretation.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/10 21:27:14


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When they use the word "army" in the Eldar Codex it cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.

By that logic, any codex written before 6th edition that refers to a USR can't use the 6th edition version of that USR, since it didn't exist when the codex was written.

What army codex has Furious Charge defined in the codex? Even if one did - yes, you'd use that definition because the codex always wins when it comes to conflicts.

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rigeld2 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When they use the word "army" in the Eldar Codex it cannot refer to both detachments as such a concept did not exist at the time.

By that logic, any codex written before 6th edition that refers to a USR can't use the 6th edition version of that USR, since it didn't exist when the codex was written.

What army codex has Furious Charge defined in the codex? Even if one did - yes, you'd use that definition because the codex always wins when it comes to conflicts.


The Orks Codex does not define Furious Charge, and says specifically that they have it as per the "special rule." We have been playing it per the 6th edition BRB.

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The main point here is what is a army? both detachments

Did GW FAQ the old codexes to clarify if army wide abilities only work on that codex's troops? No, ergo they must mean for them to work as written.

So if a 5th edition book grants a USR should it be used based on the 5th edition rules or the 6th? the 6th obviously.

there is no conflict on the meaning of the word army as no codex ever defined the word, so we use the BRB's definition. So any army wide rule affects your army.

take the mad doc ork, the faq says he has no restrictions on who he can cybork. So that's no restriction not even detachments.

 
   
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Chicago, IL

sirlynchmob wrote:
The main point here is what is a army? both detachments

Only as per the BRB, as per each codex Army means units from that specific codex, and Codex > BRB when there is a conflict.
sirlynchmob wrote:
Did GW FAQ the old codexes to clarify if army wide abilities only work on that codex's troops? No, ergo they must mean for them to work as written.

So if a 5th edition book grants a USR should it be used based on the 5th edition rules or the 6th? the 6th obviously.

there is no conflict on the meaning of the word army as no codex ever defined the word

Incorrect. all of the Codexes define what "Army" means
sirlynchmob wrote:
so we use the BRB's definition. So any army wide rule affects your army.

take the mad doc ork, the faq says he has no restrictions on who he can cybork. So that's no restriction not even detachments.

Yes there is a restriction, it is in the Ork Codex and what that codex calls "Army" is units from the Ork Codex.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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that's a lot of assertions, do you have any page numbers to back it up?

from the ork 6th 1.1 faq.
Q. How many units in an army with Mad Dok Grotsnik can be
upgraded to have cybork bodies? Are there any restrictions (apart from non-vehicle) or can it even be Gretchin or Independent Characters?
(p59)
A. Any number of units can be upgraded. This includes
Gretchin and Independent Characters (except for unique
characters), effectively giving them a 5 pt discount on the
cybork body upgrade.

 
   
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Chicago, IL

Ork Codex P 3, left column, Warhammer 40,000 game section, 2nd sentence:

"Every army has its own codex book that works with these rules..."

Further down they equate [Ork] Army list with the units in the Ork Codex.

Ork Army List section, P. 3 Right Column: "The army list takes all of the units presented in 'Forces of the Orks' section and arranges them so you can choose an army..."

Army list = Army, and army is from the Ork Codex.

They are talking about the Ork Codex, and only the Ork Codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/11 00:00:34


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 DeathReaper wrote:
Ork Codex P 3, left column, Warhammer 40,000 game section, 2nd sentence:

"Every army has its own codex book that works with these rules..."

Further down they equate [Ork] Army list with the units in the Ork Codex.

Ork Army List section, P. 3 Right Column: "The army list takes all of the units presented in 'Forces of the Orks' section and arranges them so you can choose an army..."

Army list = Army, and army is from the Ork Codex.

They are talking about the Ork Codex, and only the Ork Codex.


Maybe, maybe not.
As there is nothing to back it up.

There is precedence in FAQ's that your army is your army including Prim + Allied.

   
 
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