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I dont think they will go under...completely. theres too big a following at the moment. If i were to look at the overall price increase over the past 10 yrs and apply that to the next 10 years, we would be paying insane prices for the same plastic.
I remember when i had to beg my parents for the liz/bret starter back inthe 90s (xmas mind you) my father was strongly against paying $100 for plastic models but he folded and got it for me for xmas. I hope i will be able to do the same financially, i doubt i will if the US economy continues this way.

I understand this concept that GW stores are retail, and are meant to sell, but here's the problem with that: the internet.

How many consumers in this day and age don't find something new and then bother googling it? Damn near every person in the US knows about Ebay, Amazon, and the concept of online discount selling. So why on earth would I need a store that offers nothing but full retail prices?

For me, the tables and the ability to hang out and paint or just chat with other games is a major draw to get me into the store. Sure I can paint at home, and I can game at home, and I can sure as hell get every single item in a GW store online for 20+% off. I don't go there for the product, I go there for the services. And it is because of those services that I'm willing to spend some money in that store.

Offering things that online discounters can't is the ONLY way to stay competitive today. Warstore has 20% off and $6 flat rate shipping. So any purchase of $30 retail value of product and the shipping is covered, and with GW prices it isn't hard to hit $30. But you know what the Warstore.com doesn't have? A gaming space here in CA, and a community of players to interact with.

Now if GW insists on rushing people out the door once their money is spent, there is zero reason to continue spending there.
Starbucks doesn't kick you out once your coffee is ready. They provide a VERY cushy environment in which to enjoy their product.

With how small of a customer base GW has, they should be doing everything in their power to keep players rather than pushing them out. Customer loyalty is far more reliable income than turn and burn profit.

The GW's in Adelaide, South Australia tend to run constant events and are very friendly with regulars. Sure they will spend extra time with unfamiliar players, but I can usually walk in and engage in a 20-30min conversation between sales.

My only concern is their strict rules concerning modelling / Painting events - forcing you to purchase models on the day (hence why I very rarely join them).

imo, GW is deliberately trying to drive away veteran gamers and older crowds. As for "why" you may ask, they have a bizarre and confusing business model and so a lot of things that don't make sense. They're almost anti-social when it comes to advertising, for instance.

Whats bizarre about GW except that they have found that they have increased their market share based upon actual high/main street presence?

The stores are their advertising pure and simple and why each store is focused on new gamers. The direct sales also boost turnover to that which would be made from independent retail sales only.

It goes against most examples of the Internet damaging retail locations but It is working for them. They are expanding heir retail arm again after all.

As to the OP, yep GW turnover staff allot and any new manager will be focused on numbers so that new players not players that hang out. Your in the uk, join a club there are plenty in most counties and probably have a bar as well!

What is a GW store?

I have been playing since 1994 and have never seen one.

OH wait, that is why they aren't going under.

To the guy repping Warmahordes as cheaper, better models and more players:

I have spent $110 on Cygnar for 5 jacks; I have no where near a playable army, the plastic is so hard the mold lines need filed like pewter (can't scrape them with a knife) and the plastic does not take plastic cement. As for the model design, apples/oranges.

PP is hardly revolutionizing wargaming, but I do like their (or whoever they have branded as their) brushes.

I will play Warmachine, but to me, it is the M:tG of miniature wargaming.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
I dont know any kids now that wanna read a 300 pg rulebook, realize none of it sunk in and then have to read it again. They are gonna choose porn or video games lol. 15 yrs go id say yea. I was one of those kids.
Have they lost their minds? No no no, they are trying to keep thier minds. As a consumer im a lil confused on thier target demographic. I saw the hobbit package and laughed. Id just make one and charge 2 million $ for it or whatever they think their profit margin will be.
The reason their stock prices are rising is because they are meeting thier quarterly earnings quota by inflating prices to compensate for decrease in sales. Eventually they will hit a ceiling and the empire will crumble or be bought out. I expect then stock to split. All of this is speculation tho. Im not an authority in this.
If WOTC buys them out then we ill prob see rotations sooner than every 4 years

GW sales have been falling, we have no idea about the size of the customer base. If every “veteran” that moves away from GW is replaced with a new young player then the customer base is remaining steady.

The fall is sales could well be because prices mean that people spend the same each month but take longer to complete their armies, as such a customer that would have become a veteran after 2 years is now a veteran after 3, giving GW an extra year of profits from them. Far from being a company in decline that is a company on the up.

I’m not saying any of the above is true, but it has as much chance of being true as all the doom and gloom people on here shouting for their demise.

The fall is sales is also a guess.

The only sales figure there is is the unit sales figure from the balance sheet on the yearly report.

This this always seems to be interpreted as a drop in sales but could also be down to other reasons like product changes (no longer selling unit blisters and selling bigger boxes instead) or the reduction in retail outlets.

I'm not saying it is or isn't a drop in sales but there isn't enought data to be certain.

GW as also increasing the number of stores at the moment which would suggest that sales are increasing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.

Exactly. GW stores are actually meant to be used as free child daycare for all the mothers who can't be bothered dragging their kids around the mall.

Or maybe that's just how they were used in Oz...

Nope was the same when I was a staffer in Canada also. Kinda funny that during there biggest growth periods (early 90's to early 2000's) that's how the stores where. Basically a social club and guess what they made their quota's. But in all honesty it's so much easier to to market to kids, plan for 1 or 2 birthdays and Christmas's and be done with them and get a new 'Little Timmy' in there then it is to market a game to late teens and adults.

I do remember the good times back then and it kinda makes me sad to think about the, oh well back to playing DDO.

The problem is GW sells us a sociable hobby gaming lifestyle. It's all about getting together with other people face to face to have great fun playing games. This was always referenced in there sales pitch and having gaming space in stores was part of this "lifestyle" that made the product more attractive to the consumer. Removing that facility then makes the product less attractive to new people, it's one less selling point, but also goes back on what GW told existing customers which can make people feel short changed. Its akin to a car salesman telling you all about the joys of the open road to sell you a car, then a week later they turn up and take the wheels aways.

Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.

 cincydooley wrote:

Griever wrote:
makes better models, has a more appealing release schedule, and more people play it.

Well these three points are just laughable.

On the other hand, they do work well for the most recent stuff released by Malifaux. Well, okay, maybe they don't have more people playing but hopefully that will change as the miniatures get more attention.

 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.

Well that has nothing to do with my comment but thanks for contributing. If you notice i talked in general terms about how GW sold the hobby and why some people may be upset when they don't get what was sold to them. It's called an inducement to sign ;-) also I pointed out how they may find it more difficult to attract new people, this is because the vast majority of new GW customers first "hobby community" is in a GW store ( in UK at least), take that away and yes you do make it a harder sell.

Surely one of the ways for GW to fix the store problem is to franchise them. With enough clauses to stick to 50%+ GW stock, or GW-only terrain on the tables, then a store could branch out into other fields, and be able to compete with any FLGS.
More stores in an area must be good, if more players are brought in to use them. Add choice, and be able to adapt.

 Aerethan wrote:

How many consumers in this day and age don't find something new and then bother googling it? Damn near every person in the US knows about Ebay, Amazon, and the concept of online discount selling. So why on earth would I need a store that offers nothing but full retail prices?

Yeah.

But eBay is also the best proof that there're a lot of consumers that aren't going at this quite as rationally.

Bought Black Library's Flesh of Cretacia recently (12 quid, free shipping). Read it. Wrote a short blog article about it. Than put it on eBay to get rid of it again. Got 14 quid (+2 quid shipping). And you can still order it for 12 on GW's website.

Go to the "ebay follies" thread and have a look for even better examples.

If a majority of people would truly always shop around for the best value, those shops would be out a long time ago. But people aren't like that. They purchase things on "impulse". The same reason GW's secrecy-combined-with-slash-release is working, no matter how much people hate it.

STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.

Well, I think there are essentially two ways to go.

A) The Gaming Center (Warhammer World, Tabletop Nation, etc..).

B) The "pure" Retail Store


The former are mainly build to provide the "gaming experience", the latter to sell stuff, ideally to walk-in customers unfamiliar with the game/product/company


In ancient times, GW stores were a little bit of both. Evidently, they tried to trim it down and focus on "B".

While I can also see the appeal of A, I don't think they would work very well in busy high-rent-per-square-foot areas where you get the best exposure to walk-in / new customers. Gaming Centers tend to be a bit off the beaten path in former industrial estates and things like that where you can get lots of room for little money. If you go there, you are most likely already a customer who knows about the product. They synch with online-retailers (Triple Helix Wargames comes to mind). But they suck at getting a brand name / product out there to people who don't know you yet.

 Kaldor wrote:

Look, I don't want to say they way they are operating is right but they're a retail outlet, not a social club. You don't go down to your local sporting goods store and just hang around all afternoon, do you? Or your local supermarket? You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.

Except they don't market them as stores, they market them as hobby centres, with the implication that you can go to your hobby centre to take part in the hobby, like you'd go to a sports centre and expect to play sports.

I'd fully approve of separate stores (in high rent/visibility areas) and gaming centres (in lower rent/visibility areas), as the current set-ups are pretty poor for both. Most stores don't really have the space for much gaming, or browsing when games are running, but they need to keep selling a complete product, and hosting hobby activities is part of it.

If I lived within say an hour of WHW or an independent gaming centre I'd be in there every other weekend and spending a fortune. But I'm 5 hours away from the nearest one so my wallet is safe

 Harriticus wrote:
imo, GW is deliberately trying to drive away veteran gamers and older crowds. As for "why" you may ask, they have a bizarre and confusing business model and so a lot of things that don't make sense. They're almost anti-social when it comes to advertising, for instance.

A staffer explained to me once that advertising is expensive and it doesn't make sense to advertise a niche market product to a mass audience.

I'm no expert on advertising but that makes sense to me. I have quite a few friends who play but I also have quite a few friends, who despite having many similar interests as me, simply can't get into miniature gaming. It's not about price (since they have other expensive hobbies) they just can't see themselves pushing around model soldiers and rolling dice.

I've noticed that the local GWs are more focused on recruiting new gamers. Events tend to be new gamer centric. Rarely do I see tournaments or campaigns or things that interest me. Having said that, I've never felt "driven out" and I understand that new gamers need more support than I do. Thankfully, there's enough veteran level events run by indies to keep my interest in check. Our gaming group is fairly large as well so when everyone's back for the summer we usually hold a month long campaign ending in an epic Apoc game at the FLGS.

Just want to stick up for GW a little here.

Im by no means a fanboy - in fact ive only just come back to wargames after a 20 year break.

However while taking the mrs shopping ive been to quite a few of the GW over the last 6 months, Bury - Manchester - Blackpool - Bolton - Plymouth - Exeter to name a few and each and every time (blackpool aside) the guys there want to do anything they can to help me (even to the point that im thinking just leave me alone). I thought this could have been due to my age (being 31) and them spending lots of time with young players.

I have been told by all the GW above (bar Blackpool) that i was welcome to come down and play there whenever i like and some have invited me to after closed adult nights

Again its been a long time since ive played, and even tho ive spent a small fortune on models this year i still may never play again, i just think GW seem to get bad press for everything and its a little unfair (the price hike i can understand the bad press)

ClaretStevo wrote:
.....and some have invited me to after closed adult nights....

At last a GW event I can get inboard with!

Seriouly though I'm much the same as you (if a little older ) and have always found the shops helpful in spite of the poor fellers being ravaged by pre pubescent muchkins, even then I hardly buy anything. Why you with Wayland just 20 minutes down the road.

That's sort of the crux of the GW situation though, I was like the munchkins when I started a 11; generally you can only go a hobby shop if your parents are heading somewhere near to one. Without a credit card they Probably can't do the online thing.

Being older and having the freedom of a car or being centre based like uni students means you can shop around. GW know it's fills that newb niche and tries to proliferate that. Anyone else is covered by online retailers and FLGs and with the number of clubs already in the UK why would they waste money on real estate for bigger stores with gaming areas when it's already covered by the clubs.

IMO.
The GW stores have gone the same way as the WD.

Originaly hobby focused ,( the soft sell.)
Here is a brilliant narrative campain to get you inspired...here is an in depth moddeling and painting guide how the studio staff converted their minatures for this campain.(And at the back a list of parts and paints you require if you are inspired by the articles....)

Yes you are paying over the odds for GW stuff, but they support the GW hobby in the GW hobby shops...

Now all the hobby is replaced by 'buying new stuff now !!!!'(Hard sell to kiddies.)

SO no added value from hobby support at all.

So why pay fro a magazine full of adverts?
So why pay twice as much for items from a retail store , that gives you no extra ?

SO many people are simply getting better value for money elsewhere...

The GW hobby used to be the TTMG hobby with lots of support and input from GW staff.
(Greatest period of growth 1987 to 1997 when they doubled turn over every 3 years.Since 2004 GW plc has lost over 40% of their sales volumes.)

 notprop wrote:
The fall is sales is also a guess.

Not so much.

Thanks to the accidentally leaked document from the CHS case, we have access to 7 years of sales data for a variety of popular and in many cases essential products. When you levelize for the annual price increases - the drop in sales volume is as high as 30% over the past 7 years of information. Even without doing any sort of mathmatical adjustments - the numbers show the drop. For example, in 2004 GW sold $131,171 worth of Terminators (99120101027) - in 2011 they sold $124,993 of the same item in the US. That is a drop in sales on a dollar to dollar comparison not taking into account any price increases which have occurred in the last 7 years time.

 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.

Amen to that.

But alas, I do not blame GW at all. I fully believe in capitalism and thus blame the customers, not the company. As long as GW sells enough, they won't care for anything else. I hope, I really do, for The Hobbit to become a MASSIVE financial fail. Please!

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.

Amen to that.

But alas, I do not blame GW at all. I fully believe in capitalism and thus blame the customers, not the company. As long as GW sells enough, they won't care for anything else. I hope, I really do, for The Hobbit to become a MASSIVE financial fail. Please!

I'm very much not a fan of the GW organization, but I don't understand this point of view. Do you two want the GW games to become prepainted clix franchises? WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.

I've refused for some time to pay GW prices, but I do appreciate the role they play in bringing newbies into the hobby. GW has got to be the single biggest gateway into miniature wargaming there is. As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it. There's a good chance they could just use the IP for different gaming products, or they might continue the games and really feth it up.

Sum up, I wouldn't be surprised if GW does go down, but I don't want to hasten it. Those who want GW to die don't seem to realize that the future results could be much, much worse then the present state of things.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:
The fall is sales is also a guess.

Not so much.

Thanks to the accidentally leaked document from the CHS case, we have access to 7 years of sales data for a variety of popular and in many cases essential products. When you levelize for the annual price increases - the drop in sales volume is as high as 30% over the past 7 years of information. Even without doing any sort of mathmatical adjustments - the numbers show the drop. For example, in 2004 GW sold $131,171 worth of Terminators (99120101027) - in 2011 they sold $124,993 of the same item in the US. That is a drop in sales on a dollar to dollar comparison not taking into account any price increases which have occurred in the last 7 years time.

The Terminator example is not a good one. In 2004 there was not a starter set with plastic terminators. Today most people would buy Black Reach termis rather than the $50 box set of 5. Also, some people prefer plastic and would convert plastic termis to grey knights. Now there is a GK termi set. This also canibalizes the sales of the original termi box set.

I think that it is more useful to look at their total sales for 40k.

How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.

Indeed spaceelf, I confess I missed that revelation in the Chapterhouse thread myself. Taking individual items from a line and extrapolating a sales picture for the whole line is also guessing. Loosing £7-8k of sales per year could be indicative of a change in meta as much as anything, it could be explained by an £10k increase in landraider sales as fashions change.

That's not to say it isn't a drop in sales, purely that without the whole picture anything could be true.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I'm happy with GW just focusing on recruiting the young and not providing a playing space. This is one more strength to the indy stores and we need far more of those.

I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.