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Meanwhile in Freedom of Speech Land:

http://www.armywtfmoments.com/phelps-tweet-announcing-sandy-hook-protest

Looks like the Westboro Baptist Church is at it again... though I think protesting Sandy Hook might earn them an upgrade to "suicide cult"

So I haven't read all of this thread. How many people have stated that if "they were there" with a gun, or if the faculty at the school could have had guns of their own, someone would have easily stepped up and gone John McClane, saving the school and showing their omnipotent situational awareness by shooting the kid (and obviously without the possibility of catching a panicking kid in the crossfire- thus making two people who shot innocents that day)?

Because that's what lawmakers here in Michigan seem to think would have worked.

Or am I wonderfully wrong in my cynical-ness and this has stayed civil and constructive?

Looks like the Westboro Baptist Church is at it again... though I think protesting Sandy Hook might earn them an upgrade to "suicide cult"

Well, I think they have been of the mindset for a long time that "bad press is still press" when it comes to getting attention, which is their obvious goal.


Adding that my opinion is that arming everyone and their brother is a horribly reactive way to approach such acts of violence It is in absolutely no way proactive.

My wife is a teacher and she is of the feeling that if they (teachers) didn't have their hands tied so badly when it comes to dealing with students with severe problems (or when they are in situations that can spiral downwards if unchecked), they could be much more proactive and stop things like this when the situation is in it's infancy. Or not even have the kids look towards this outlet at all.

And today, one city away from me, a 3 year old managed to get his hands on a gun and somehow shoot himself in the head.

And the deaths of children like that will outnumber the number of children killed yesterday in every year. Yesterday was shocking because it happen all at once and we have a big number of dead in one incident, so it makes it 'easier' to care.

It's the same with car accidents. If an elementary school bus rolls over and kills 27 kids it will be on the news and we will have candle-light vigils. But how many grade school age children die each week in car accidents that nobody hears about or spends any time thinking about?

Of course to me the death of the 3 year old is not a result of gun ownership as much as it seems to be a result of irresponsible gun ownership, but the result is the same.

If there was a child from that school would have died in the hospital his face would be on be national media as the last victim. But since the kid just accidentally killed himself the national media doesn't care, just a statistic and not a neatly packaged tragedy...

 d-usa wrote:
And today, one city away from me, a 3 year old managed to get his hands on a gun and somehow shoot himself in the head.

And the deaths of children like that will outnumber the number of children killed yesterday in every year. Yesterday was shocking because it happen all at once and we have a big number of dead in one incident, so it makes it 'easier' to care.

It's the same with car accidents. If an elementary school bus rolls over and kills 27 kids it will be on the news and we will have candle-light vigils. But how many grade school age children die each week in car accidents that nobody hears about or spends any time thinking about?

Of course to me the death of the 3 year old is not a result of gun ownership as much as it seems to be a result of irresponsible gun ownership, but the result is the same.

If there was a child from that school would have died in the hospital his face would be on be national media as the last victim. But since the kid just accidentally killed himself the national media doesn't care, just a statistic and not a neatly packaged tragedy...

Well that's the bottom line isn't it? The Media doesn't actually care about any of this. The story du jour is spun and sensationalized in the name of higher ratings and has been suggested earlier in this thread this can inspire copy cats. A single life just doesn't make good copy.

Now get out there and get me photos of Spider-man d-usa!

Well, part of me is pissed at both sides. If people care about the tragedy, the they should care about the single daily deaths. If they don't care about the daily deaths then they shouldn't care about the tragedies.

Because let's face it. All the shootings this year probably won't put a very big bump into our national annual gun-related homicide statistics.

 d-usa wrote:
Well, part of me is pissed at both sides. If people care about the tragedy, the they should care about the single daily deaths. If they don't care about the daily deaths then they shouldn't care about the tragedies.

Because let's face it. All the shootings this year probably won't put a very big bump into our national annual gun-related homicide statistics.

Which on a positive note have been declining for like two decades.

An interesting tidbit that someone on facebook pointed out is that after the Dunblane Massacre at a school in Scotland in 1996, the UK banned private ownership of all handguns, and there have been no school shootings since. A bit of brief research on the topic seems to confirm that this is indeed true.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Were 27 people killed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932011%29

A guy attacks 22 children at a school with a knife and that's not enough? People only face reality if the children die? It's mind-boggling that people can even believe the guy in Connecticut needed a gun to kill all those little children. Here's a number: 2977. The number of people murdered in a single day at the hands of motivated and deranged men armed with box knives. They didn't need guns, but you can bet your ass we'd never hear the end of it if they used them instead.

We've had all these "Columbines" since the 90's, yet people are so quick to blame the gun culture we've had for over 200 years. How is that even remotely logical? Interesting that the early 90's gave us the Gun-Free School Zones Act. What a fantastic coincidence. Our military bases were made gun free zones in the 90's too. Are people even aware that they had to wait for an off-base civilian police officer to show up to stop Hasan?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
So I haven't read all of this thread. How many people have stated that if "they were there" with a gun, or if the faculty at the school could have had guns of their own, someone would have easily stepped up and gone John McClane, saving the school and showing their omnipotent situational awareness by shooting the kid (and obviously without the possibility of catching a panicking kid in the crossfire- thus making two people who shot innocents that day)?

Too bad we don't have a real life example like Joel Myrick.

 Cadorius wrote:

We've had all these "Columbines" since the 90's, yet people are so quick to blame the gun culture we've had for over 200 years. How is that even remotely logical? .

Maybe because you've had a fething violent history for 200 years?

I mean, I don't really want to argue one way or another, these stories are fething disgusting, and one of them was way to close to me for me to have an unbiased outlook toward it, but to me it's seems entirely possible that this is some kind of horrifying 'meme'. The 'gun culture' wouldn't then be a cause, but an enabler.

The real cause would probably be the (historically new) inclusion of kids in school for such a long amount of time, and the alienation some suffer in a standardized schooling system. But how do you fix that?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Cadorius wrote:

We've had all these "Columbines" since the 90's, yet people are so quick to blame the gun culture we've had for over 200 years. How is that even remotely logical? .

Maybe because you've had a fething violent history for 200 years?

I mean, I don't really want to argue one way or another, these stories are fething disgusting, and one of them was way to close to me for me to have an unbiased outlook toward it, but to me it's seems entirely possible that this is some kind of horrifying 'meme'. The 'gun culture' wouldn't then be a cause, but an enabler.

The real cause would probably be the (historically new) inclusion of kids in school for such a long amount of time, and the alienation some suffer in a standardized schooling system. But how do you fix that?

Online schooling?

 Bromsy wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Cadorius wrote:

We've had all these "Columbines" since the 90's, yet people are so quick to blame the gun culture we've had for over 200 years. How is that even remotely logical? .

Maybe because you've had a fething violent history for 200 years?

I mean, I don't really want to argue one way or another, these stories are fething disgusting, and one of them was way to close to me for me to have an unbiased outlook toward it, but to me it's seems entirely possible that this is some kind of horrifying 'meme'. The 'gun culture' wouldn't then be a cause, but an enabler.

The real cause would probably be the (historically new) inclusion of kids in school for such a long amount of time, and the alienation some suffer in a standardized schooling system. But how do you fix that?

Online schooling?

Good thinking, that's already starting in a few schools over here.

 Cadorius wrote:

Here's a number: 2977. The number of people murdered in a single day at the hands of motivated and deranged men armed with box knives.

It is worth noting that security procedures were altered in the wake of 9/11.

 Cadorius wrote:

We've had all these "Columbines" since the 90's, yet people are so quick to blame the gun culture we've had for over 200 years. How is that even remotely logical?

The obvious reason would be that gun culture in the United States isn't what it was more than 200 years ago.

Also, there were plenty of school shooting prior to the 90's.

 Cadorius wrote:

Our military bases were made gun free zones in the 90's too.

Not gun free, carriage of firearms was limited to security personnel.

The real cause would probably be the (historically new) inclusion of kids in school for such a long amount of time, and the alienation some suffer in a standardized schooling system. But how do you fix that?

Enable teachers to do something about it other than tell someone higher up. It's a daily frustration with my wife when she sees kids in trouble.

You've never been able to openly carry or concealed carry your own person firearms on military bases. You (theoretically) register your weapon with the armory, and you check it out and check it back in when you're done with it. It's pretty safe.

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
You've never been able to openly carry or concealed carry your own person firearms on military bases. You (theoretically) register your weapon with the armory, and you check it out and check it back in when you're done with it. It's pretty safe.

Depends on the base/branch I guess. In the AF the only time I've had to keep my fire arms in the the Armory was when I lived in the dorms. I live in on-base housing right now and all 5 of my guns are in my household.

Same deal here when I was in the Corps, firearms only had to be stowed in the Squadron arms room if you were in the barracks.

It's DoD policy. Since I was the armorer I had to do the PoW counseling. Part of ours was telling guys in the B's which guys had safes. Because you know what Auston doesn't like dealing with? Pvt Snuffies prize 870 that I have to clear space in the cages for.

Hah XD oh no, me $400 shotty!

 Cadorius wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Were 27 people killed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932011%29

A guy attacks 22 children at a school with a knife and that's not enough? ... .

Do you think that proves the USA has not got a gun problem?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Do you think that proves the USA has not got a gun problem?

No, it's the statistics that suggest that.

And we don't. What we do have is a limp-Richard white boys who can't handle the overwhelming pressure of living a life without genuine hardship in middle-class suburban America problem.

 Seaward wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Do you think that proves the USA has not got a gun problem?

No, it's the statistics that suggest that.

And we don't. What we do have is a limp-Richard white boys who can't handle the overwhelming pressure of living a life without genuine hardship in middle-class suburban America problem.

Amen. Couple that with a media that turns them into celebrities, you get these folks who used to hang themselves in the basement now wanting to make a name for themselves when they go out.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
So I haven't read all of this thread. How many people have stated that if "they were there" with a gun, or if the faculty at the school could have had guns of their own, someone would have easily stepped up and gone John McClane, saving the school and showing their omnipotent situational awareness by shooting the kid (and obviously without the possibility of catching a panicking kid in the crossfire- thus making two people who shot innocents that day)?

Well, I have, for one, because I believe it to be true. I don't have the link on this computer, but if memory serves, it's 93 of these spree killings that have been halted by an armed civilian since the late 70s. 94 if you want to count Clackamas, I suppose.

They receive a lot less attention. The Appalachian School of Law shooting, for example. Widespread media coverage, but just about nobody mentioned the fact that the shooter was stopped by two students who ran to their cars to get guns of their own - it was yet another Gun Free Zone, naturally.

 Seaward wrote:
What we do have is a limp-Richard white boys who can't handle the overwhelming pressure of living a life without genuine hardship in middle-class suburban America problem.

So you've experienced genuine hardship?

 dogma wrote:

So you've experienced genuine hardship?

Yep.

But I also haven't shot up any schools lately, so I'm curious why you'd care either way. Unless you're going to try and make some hilarious point about how growing up in Richville, Connecticut and having your mom take care of you until you're 20 is hard in its own way.

 Seaward wrote:
The Appalachian School of Law shooting, for example.

Not if you believe Tracy Besen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

Yep.

But I also haven't shot up any schools lately, so I'm curious why you'd care either way.

You insinuated that our (the United States) problem is the presence of "white boys" that cannot handle their lives, which lack genuine hardship. If I made such a point I would have in mind an idea what "genuine hardship" is, and so I'm curious as to what your understanding of the concept is.

 Seaward wrote:

Unless you're going to try and make some hilarious point about how growing up in Richville, Connecticut and having your mom take care of you until you're 20 is hard in its own way.

Being autistic is pretty damn hard.

 dogma wrote:
Being autistic is pretty damn hard.

So hard it obliges you to shoot up an elementary school, apparently.

I guess Klebold and Harris showed us that being outcast nerds who had trouble getting laid is on a similar plane of difficulty.

 Seaward wrote:

So hard it obliges you to shoot up an elementary school, apparently.

That's not what I said. I was questioning whether or not he experienced genuine hardship, not excusing what he did.

Seaward, Your posts are inflammatory and quite frankly offensive to anyone who has ever had to deal with any kind of mental illness. And the kind of bully culture and social ostracization that is an inherent component of almost any standardized schooling system.

Who are you to judge someone else's life and how hard it is? Mental illness, despite the notion pedaled by those not knowledgeable in the field, is not exclusive to "limp-Richard white boys who can't handle the overwhelming pressure of living a life without genuine hardship in middle-class suburban America" It is experienced by millions of people, all around the world, the only reason that this stereotype exists is because this particular group has slightly better capabilities to deal with and diagnose this problems, as opposed to say, someone in a rural third world country.

cptbravo wrote:
Seaward, Your posts are inflammatory and quite frankly offensive to anyone who has ever had to deal with any kind of mental illness. And the kind of bully culture and social ostracization that is an inherent component of almost any standardized schooling system.

Who are you to judge someone else's life and how hard it is? Mental illness, despite the notion pedaled by those not knowledgeable in the field, is not exclusive to "limp-Richard white boys who can't handle the overwhelming pressure of living a life without genuine hardship in middle-class suburban America" It is experienced by millions of people, all around the world, the only reason that this stereotype exists is because this particular group has slightly better capabilities to deal with and diagnose this problems, as opposed to say, someone in a rural third world country.

So of all the spree shootings we've seen over the past decade, all of them were the result of mental illness? I find that difficult to believe, especially given how hard and how fast autism researchers and support foundations have insisted this had nothing to do with autism.

Not all of the spree killers of the past couple decades have been white, but especially with the school shootings, it's a dominant factor. Young white dudes in suburbia. As a former young white dude in suburbia, I'm curious what the hell they could find so difficult about the lifestyle.

In all fairness Seaward, not all mental illness is brought on by specific events in a persons life. Even depression can be purely brought about by a chemical imbalance instead of a chain of gakky events.