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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 21:21:19
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Plastictrees
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Zakiriel wrote:As an update I offer you these.
Chief Connecticut Medical Examiner H. Wayne Carver has released the names of those killed by 20-year-old Adam Lanza on December 14. Besides proving anew that the lives of far too many innocent people were taken by a cold blooded criminal, the report suggests that the killings were carried out in an act of revenge.
According to the report, Lanza shot the 20 child victims -- eight boys and 12 girls -- at close range and shot each victim between three and eleven times.
Other reports indicate that Lanza "visited Sandy Hook Elementary the day before [the shooting] and was involved in an altercation with four members of the staff of the school." Three of those four are now dead.
People who knew Lanza have said his mother expected a lot from him, "that she pushed him really hard to be smarter and work harder in school." He killed his mother before killing the school staff members he allegedly fought with; he then ultimately took his rage out on the children.
Reports indicate the Connecticut shooter had three firearms in his possession when he drove to the school on Friday -- a Glock 9mm, a Sig Sauer 9mm, and an AR-15 (reportedly a Bushmaster).
That's two handguns (Glock and Sig Sauer) and one rifle (AR-15).
These are semi-automatic weapons only, which is a fancy way of saying they fire one bullet every time you pull the trigger. NONE OF THEM ARE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.
This begs the question, why in the world did Rupert Murdoch send out a text hours after the shooting that read: "Terrible news today. When will politicians find the courage to ban automatic weapons?"
Although only semi-automatic, it is important to note that Lanza broke Connecticut laws by possessing the handguns, because you have to have a permit to own and carry a handgun in Connecticut. The paperwork on both handguns was in his mother's name, which means the guns weren't even his to possess and he had no permit carry (he was not legally eligible for a permit to carry because he was only 20 -- you have to be 21 to get that permit).
Regarding the AR-15 it is what politicians commonly call an "assault rifle" (although the "AR" does not stand for that). It has a completely different set of Connecticut laws by which its owner must abide, many of which Lanza broke just by taking the gun into his possession, transporting it to a school, and transporting it in a way other than is legally stipulated for the transport of an assault rifle in Connecticut.
Glock, Sig Sauer, and Bushmaster make some of the most popular guns in the U.S. and the world. And these semi-automatic weapons didn't cause the crime that happened Friday. Far from it, they were illegally used in a crime by a mad man named Adam Lanza.
Hat tip to AWR Hawkins for these stories.
I just find the "protect the guns!" reaction as nauseating as the frenzied media coverage.
Yes, the crazy murderer used the guns his mother (not clear on the ownership of the AR-15?) obtained legally. So...the guns are innocent victims? Other than clarifying that these are semi-automatic weapons, which I appreciate has some relevance, what is the point of this article?
All I am seeing is that if he didn't have such easy access to firearms then his act of "revenge", which would certainly have happened anyway, would have had a much different outcome. Are they implying that he would have found a way to obtain firearms no matter what? Because I find that very hard to believe in this case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 22:40:50
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Though if the weapons were not legal to own at all, he couldn't have so easily taken them from his mother who was keeping them in the same house as him. Seems to be arguing on a technicality really, yes he wasn't the permit holder when he helped himself to the guns his parent legally owned in the same house. So he broke the law when he helped himself to the several guns being kept in his house, doesn't seem a great argument against the issue with the legal ownership of guns in general if they are going to be so easily acquired by people who aren't supposed to get them. I do wonder why his mum felt the need to keep so many guns and a rifle in the house but I guess that's just part of the culture us Brits won't understand. Personally, I'd be happy with one gun if I needed one at all. The AR-15 is a pretty serious bit of kit, is that really justified as home defence?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/16 22:45:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 23:40:52
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ratbarf wrote: AustonT wrote: Ratbarf wrote:An assault weapon's a gun that people think looks scary or resembles a military weapon. That's it.
Then where does the term, Assault Rifle come from?
In true Godwinian fashion: Hitler.
Sturmgewehr doesn't translate as Assault Rifle. It means Storm Rifle. In the same way that Sturmtruppen means Storm Troopers and not Assault Troopers.
And technically a B.A.R. should be classified as an Assault Rifle, and it dates back to 1918.
Fernseher means Remote See and yet it translates without argument into television. Your argument is elementary and incorrect. So basically you're batting 1.000 ITT.
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Avatar 720 wrote:You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters.. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0005/12/16 23:52:59
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Haven't done the research, but I have seen a few family members mention the Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week and that a concealed carry holder drew on the shooter. Said he never took a shot at him since he never had a clear line of fire but after the gunman saw him behind the pillar with his weapon drawn he withdrew to the stairwell and shot himself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 23:59:23
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Lord of the Fleet
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Howard A Treesong wrote:Though if the weapons were not legal to own at all, he couldn't have so easily taken them from his mother who was keeping them in the same house as him. Seems to be arguing on a technicality really, yes he wasn't the permit holder when he helped himself to the guns his parent legally owned in the same house. So he broke the law when he helped himself to the several guns being kept in his house, doesn't seem a great argument against the issue with the legal ownership of guns in general if they are going to be so easily acquired by people who aren't supposed to get them.
I do wonder why his mum felt the need to keep so many guns and a rifle in the house but I guess that's just part of the culture us Brits won't understand. Personally, I'd be happy with one gun if I needed one at all. The AR-15 is a pretty serious bit of kit, is that really justified as home defence?
Making something illegal has never deterred madmen. High explosives require extensive licenses and safety inspections to make and use. And yet, two nuts, a truck, and some patience led to the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I'm glad he used guns. Imagine if he'd used a carbomb like madmen do in England and Ireland.
As far as an AR 15 being justified for home defense: yes. I live in an area where police response time is 30 min plus. There have been 15 armed robberies in five miles of me this week alone. When they hit my house, they were driven off, because we were armed.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:13:46
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It's been a long few days, has this been posted yet?
http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:26:39
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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I think someone did because I recognize a line. It's worth posting twice. The commenter, first on my view, talking about racism is a moron but shrug.
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Avatar 720 wrote:You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters.. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:31:05
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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That is utterly fethed up. I can't imagine responding to threats from my children. I wonder how long it would take before I start hating him/her.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:31:21
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It's a big part of the discussion that is being ignored IMHO.
If there is a problem with mentally ill people getting a hold of weapons and using them for mass killings, then why would you say "we need to do something about guns" and ignore an entire half of the problem?
Of course in these parts we will have the two discussions:
"Gun control? Government is going to take away my guns and then we will end up in concentration camps!"
and
"Mental Health reform? They are going to screen us all and force treatment and put us in concentration camps!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:45:42
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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d-usa wrote:
Of course in these parts we will have the two discussions:
"Gun control? Government is going to take away my guns and then we will end up in concentration camps!"
and
"Mental Health reform? They are going to screen us all and force treatment and put us in concentration camps!"
The Nazis sure did a number on you guys.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 00:55:15
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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She's not adam lanza's mother, she's smart enough not to have a small arsenal around her son which is great. Have all the discussions about mental health you want, it's a distraction.
She makes some great points but lets be honest here, her son might do something violent, might kill someone with a sharp or blunt object, but right now he doesn't have access to a firearm and my guess is his harry potter fan club membership isn't going to get him the correct street cred to get in with the kind of individuals who would sell him a firearm illegally. Short of stealing one from a friend of family member, his violent antisocial behaviour probably isn't going to end in a mass killing, at least for now. She's basically saying, don't worry about guns, give me more financial aid for my crazy kid who costs me a lot financially and emotionally.
Yes the states needs to deal with mental health, access and affordability of health care and of course the entirety of the prison industrial complex. But you just muddy the waters by making this solely a "mental health" issue. It's a cop out.
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/17 01:03:50
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:05:37
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fully-charged Electropriest
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Crablezworth wrote:But you just muddy the waters by making this solely a "mental health" issue. It's a cop out.
Quite true, but simply making it solely a "gun rights" issue is a cop out, too. In the end, it's not just guns and it's not just the mentally ill, it's the mentally ill with guns. Many argue vehemently that the issue could be solved simply by restricting access to firearms, and many more argue that the solution lies in better services for the mentally ill. Of course, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:10:10
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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prime12357 wrote: Crablezworth wrote:But you just muddy the waters by making this solely a "mental health" issue. It's a cop out.
Quite true, but simply making it solely a "gun rights" issue is a cop out, too. In the end, it's not just guns and it's not just the mentally ill, it's the mentally ill with guns. Many argue vehemently that the issue could be solved simply by restricting access to firearms, and many more argue that the solution lies in better services for the mentally ill. Of course, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I agree completely, just lately I've noticed that shifting it to mental health and solely mental health seems to be the only tactic the "pro gun" lobby have been able to employ with any effect. I have no doubt that a mandatory psych test as one of the peaces of the puzzle in legal gun ownership is a good thing. I just believe that shifting focus entirely to some vague concept of "mental health" or "affordable meds" or affordable treatment or crime and punishment just serves to muddy's the waters because where the hell do you start? She describes like half the problems facing America in one go, you split people off in seventeen different directions with no where to start and you've effectively crippled any critical mass that the last incidents have built up. It's divide and conquer.
The problem isn't really gun crime, the problem is crazy people committing mass murder, as the situation in china recently showed, it's a lot harder to do with a knife than a firearm. You can't stop all the crazies; you can certainly take common sense steps to reducing the crazy’s access to efficient death machines.
Anytime you try and go down the road of sensible gun control, the super bat gak crazy build the “our secret muslim president wants to ban guns” strawman. And the slightly more sensible gun owners who still fear they might lose access to their preferred pass time, be it target shooting or hunting go with the “mental health” route.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 01:20:41
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:12:40
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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Crablezworth wrote:She's not adam lanza's mother, she's smart enough not to have a small arsenal around her son which is great. Have all the discussions about mental health you want, it's a distraction.
She makes some great points but lets be honest here, her son might do something violent, might kill someone with a sharp or blunt object, but right now he doesn't have access to a firearm and my guess is his harry potter fan club membership isn't going to get him the correct street cred to get in with the kind of individuals who would sell him a firearm illegally. Short of stealing one from a friend of family member, his violent antisocial behaviour probably isn't going to end in a mass killing, at least for now. She's basically saying, don't worry about guns, give me more financial aid for my crazy kid who costs me a lot financially and emotionally.
Yes the states needs to deal with mental health, access and affordability of health care and of course the entirety of the prison industrial complex. But you just muddy the waters by making this solely a "mental health" issue. It's a cop out.
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
Maybe, just perhaps, it's an issue which needs to be handled on both front.
Violent, deranged people with guns is an obvious no no. There's at the very least two facets to the issue, and tackling any one of the two is a good thing.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:13:48
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Hallowed Canoness
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d-usa wrote:Haven't done the research, but I have seen a few family members mention the Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week and that a concealed carry holder drew on the shooter. Said he never took a shot at him since he never had a clear line of fire but after the gunman saw him behind the pillar with his weapon drawn he withdrew to the stairwell and shot himself.
This is correct. His name is Kevin Meli. Studies have shown that the average spree killer suicide or surrender once confronted by armed individuals. While this is not definite proof, it is extremely likely that the Clackamas incident was so mercifully short because of this armed citizen.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
Crablezworth wrote:
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
Which is why the focus should be on mental health care reform. There's a couple hundred million firearms in this country. Taking them away because of a few nuts would be far more difficult and far more expensive them taking steps to deal with the nuts directly.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:20:48
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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The fact that someone posted this:
sorry. i have always been a believer in mental illness = cop out. you can't handle your own head? then you sucked at life. no troll. i just know how to spot a crutch when i see one. mental illness. *scoff*
is quite sad in my eyes. Anyone thinking that way is sad.
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Prestor Jon wrote:Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:23:52
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fully-charged Electropriest
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But is it not a good idea to also take steps to ensure that the people with firearms are the people who don't pose a danger to others? It seems that (better) background checks, (longer) waiting periods and perhaps ammunition limitations might help some without impacting the fundamental rights of gun owners.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:23:59
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Hallowed Canoness
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MrDwhitey wrote:The fact that someone posted this:
sorry. i have always been a believer in mental illness = cop out. you can't handle your own head? then you sucked at life. no troll. i just know how to spot a crutch when i see one. mental illness. *scoff*
is quite sad in my eyes. Anyone thinking that way is sad.
Yeah, wonderful attitude no?
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:24:06
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: d-usa wrote:Haven't done the research, but I have seen a few family members mention the Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week and that a concealed carry holder drew on the shooter. Said he never took a shot at him since he never had a clear line of fire but after the gunman saw him behind the pillar with his weapon drawn he withdrew to the stairwell and shot himself.
This is correct. His name is Kevin Meli. Studies have shown that the average spree killer suicide or surrender once confronted by armed individuals. While this is not definite proof, it is extremely likely that the Clackamas incident was so mercifully short because of this armed citizen.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
Not many "spree killers" actually surrender. The Aurora shooter was a bit of an abnormality in that regard.
Crablezworth wrote:
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
Which is why the focus should be on mental health care reform. There's a couple hundred million firearms in this country. Taking them away because of a few nuts would be far more difficult and far more expensive them taking steps to deal with the nuts directly.
No amount of "mental health care reform" is going to prevent people who do not want to take their medications from ceasing their medications. Nor will it encourage people to actively seek help given the stigma associated with seeking help with a mental illness.
This is one of the biggest problems with the treatment of mental illnesses. It is also one of the biggest reasons why it is easier to focus upon firearms as a factor to change rather than mental illnesses.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:24:55
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
SE Michigan
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MrDwhitey wrote:The fact that someone posted this:
sorry. i have always been a believer in mental illness = cop out. you can't handle your own head? then you sucked at life. no troll. i just know how to spot a crutch when i see one. mental illness. *scoff*
is quite sad in my eyes. Anyone thinking that way is sad.
Its a pretty common viewpoint in quite a bit of the USA(at least where I am).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:26:06
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Then you're surrounded by ignorant people.
This isn't an insult due to being a statement of fact.
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Prestor Jon wrote:Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:26:16
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ok so what reccomdations on the mental health front are we hearing?
The mental health thing is a copout, full stop. There will always be crazy people, there will always be firearms and we need a legislative firewall between them and firearms. Some people will be prefectly sane, own firearms and then one day snap, I'm under no illusion you can prevent every massacre, but you can certainly mitigate the damage.
Is it easier to create a system in which the entire population is forcibly assessed by mental health professionals OR create a comprehensive level of checks and balances including psych test for those wishing to acquire firearms? And maybe go one further and standardizing the process because some states are far worse than others in terms of gun control and cun crime.
The reason it’s difficult in many states to involuntarily commit individuals is that you have to prove that they are an imminent threat to themselves or others, which can be incredibly difficult. And even then as is shown its a temporary solution.
It’s very hard to make legislation to force people to take their meds. There will always be crazy people, the states just happens to have their fair share of them. Legislation to start forcibly assessing people and force feeding them medication is incredibly complex and inefficient.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/17 01:36:18
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:28:12
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Fixture of Dakka
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Yeah screw trying to help people with mental illness!
The two U's are the answer
Euthanasia
And Eugenics.
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Avatar 720 wrote:You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters.. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:28:34
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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There's an important distinction between "mental illness" and "suicide by cop" which needs to be made in cases like this though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:29:04
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
SE Michigan
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MrDwhitey wrote:Then you're surrounded by ignorant people.
This isn't an insult due to being a statement of fact.
No I agree with you
There's a large social stigma focused on mental illness in the USA. People tend to view it as a more "quack" type of doctoring, often due to over prescription of meds for some of these people or because as that poster said "crutches".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:29:31
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: MrDwhitey wrote:The fact that someone posted this:
sorry. i have always been a believer in mental illness = cop out. you can't handle your own head? then you sucked at life. no troll. i just know how to spot a crutch when i see one. mental illness. *scoff*
is quite sad in my eyes. Anyone thinking that way is sad.
Yeah, wonderful attitude no?
That's pretty much the worst post ever on Dakka. And there's a lot on Dakka that competes for that title.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:30:27
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Hallowed Canoness
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Kanluwen wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote: d-usa wrote:Haven't done the research, but I have seen a few family members mention the Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week and that a concealed carry holder drew on the shooter. Said he never took a shot at him since he never had a clear line of fire but after the gunman saw him behind the pillar with his weapon drawn he withdrew to the stairwell and shot himself.
This is correct. His name is Kevin Meli. Studies have shown that the average spree killer suicide or surrender once confronted by armed individuals. While this is not definite proof, it is extremely likely that the Clackamas incident was so mercifully short because of this armed citizen.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
Not many "spree killers" actually surrender. The Aurora shooter was a bit of an abnormality in that regard.
Nor did I say they do. When they do it's after being confronted by armed individuals. That's the same point when most of them suicide.
Crablezworth wrote:
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
Which is why the focus should be on mental health care reform. There's a couple hundred million firearms in this country. Taking them away because of a few nuts would be far more difficult and far more expensive them taking steps to deal with the nuts directly.
No amount of "mental health care reform" is going to prevent people who do not want to take their medications from ceasing their medications. Nor will it encourage people to actively seek help given the stigma associated with seeking help with a mental illness.
This is one of the biggest problems with the treatment of mental illnesses. It is also one of the biggest reasons why it is easier to focus upon firearms as a factor to change.
So we can't put the crazies on a list and add that to the background check process? I honestly don't give a gak if they take their meds or not, identify'em, classify'em.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:36:01
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: Kanluwen wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote: d-usa wrote:Haven't done the research, but I have seen a few family members mention the Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week and that a concealed carry holder drew on the shooter. Said he never took a shot at him since he never had a clear line of fire but after the gunman saw him behind the pillar with his weapon drawn he withdrew to the stairwell and shot himself.
This is correct. His name is Kevin Meli. Studies have shown that the average spree killer suicide or surrender once confronted by armed individuals. While this is not definite proof, it is extremely likely that the Clackamas incident was so mercifully short because of this armed citizen.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
Not many "spree killers" actually surrender. The Aurora shooter was a bit of an abnormality in that regard.
Nor did I say they do. When they do it's after being confronted by armed individuals. That's the same point when most of them suicide.
Ehhh...that's actually not true.
The majority of spree shooters suicide long before confronted. The exact psychology of these spree shootings is up in the air. There are some which seem to just walk in, cause as much mayhem as possible and then kill themselves while there are others who do the same except for the suicide bit. They instead force the police into a situation to fire upon them.
Crablezworth wrote:
There will always be crazy people, making them take their meds is pretty damn hard, keeping them on their meds is pretty damn hard. Diagnosing the nameless name of their various conditions is hard. Paying for their meds and various treatments is hard. Keeping as many as possible from accessing effecient death machines is much much more achieveable of a goal.
Which is why the focus should be on mental health care reform. There's a couple hundred million firearms in this country. Taking them away because of a few nuts would be far more difficult and far more expensive them taking steps to deal with the nuts directly.
No amount of "mental health care reform" is going to prevent people who do not want to take their medications from ceasing their medications. Nor will it encourage people to actively seek help given the stigma associated with seeking help with a mental illness.
This is one of the biggest problems with the treatment of mental illnesses. It is also one of the biggest reasons why it is easier to focus upon firearms as a factor to change.
So we can't put the crazies on a list and add that to the background check process? I honestly don't give a gak if they take their meds or not, identify'em, classify'em.
The question is HOW do you identify them.
There is practically nothing which can be used as an indicator for something like this beyond voluntary admissions on the part of the perpetrator reported to a mental health professional or an outcry witness who could make report it to the proper authorities.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:37:08
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I am all for better screening and treatment, and even placing people on a list.
But placement on a list wouldn't have made a difference here, since he didn't buy any of the weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 01:38:55
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
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Hallowed Canoness
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d-usa wrote:I am all for better screening and treatment, and even placing people on a list. But placement on a list wouldn't have made a difference here, since he didn't buy any of the weapons. Which is what we keep coming back to. So the hell do we do? Serious gun control (bans, confiscations, etc) are untenable and ineffective and it seems nutcase control has similar issues. Everything has holes in it regardless. Only good news is that this stuff really is on the decline along with crime overall if the numbers are to be believed
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 01:43:12
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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