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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ahtman wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
How would you know?

My opinion comes from fellow cops who laugh about their "training" as well as the former rangemaster of a major California city.


I love that you question the information, and in turn offer really crappy anecdotal evidence as some proof of expertise to refute it.


Ask a cop what they think about their training. Absent some jurisdictions, its abyssmal, as in nonexistent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 15:07:34


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Decrepit Dakkanaut






About the whole video game bs flying round:


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Well if we play our cards right we can get extensive violations of not only the Second Amendment, but also the First and Fourth Amendments. Its a trifecta of civil liberties' destruction.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 Frazzled wrote:
Well if we play our cards right we can get extensive violations of not only the Second Amendment, but also the First and Fourth Amendments. Its a trifecta of civil liberties' destruction.
It certainly seems like the way things are heading, doesn't it?

 
   
Made in us
Hacking Shang Jí






Chicago burbs

 Frazzled wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
How would you know?

My opinion comes from fellow cops who laugh about their "training" as well as the former rangemaster of a major California city.


I love that you question the information, and in turn offer really crappy anecdotal evidence as some proof of expertise to refute it.


Ask a cop what they think about their training. Absent some jurisdictions, its abyssmal, as in nonexistent.


I think that comes down to the town willing to pay higher taxes to train said cops. Every city and state is different in the US. I can tell you in the Chicago area there can be vast differences in the cops from town to town. The rich towns have the good cops and the poor ones have the untrained ones. The poor ones might get subsidized by the Fed but it's often not enough to make up for it.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Oh yea, I'm, not saying cops are bad. I'm saying the amount of training and required qualification time they get is frequently very very poor.

That was one thing about LAPD. They had decent qualification and maintenance requirements, along with physical fitness requirements.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

This is actually a good read: http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com/2012/12/random-thoughts-on-second-amendment.html#more

I'll spoiler the sections since its dang long...
Spoiler:
Random Thoughts on the Second Amendment
If you follow me on Twitter, you will see I have been in the trenches for the last few days defending the second amendment against those who would leave me unable to defend myself and my wife. And yeah, I take it personally. So I thought I would share a few thoughts and knock down some common arguments I have heard against the right to bear arms in addition to my thoughts the other day.

1. Anyone who talks about the Second Amendment in terms of hunting is missing the point. Do you really think the founding fathers would have enshrined the right to hunt in the Constitution? In places where hunting was a matter of survival, there was no need for constitutional protection because no politician would be fool enough to ban it any more than anyone would ban the drinking of ordinary water. In places where it was not necessary for surival, it was too trifling a matter to constitutionalize. The founding fathers had just finished throwing off the shackles of British tyranny and they didn’t do so with sternly worded letters; they did it with guns.

Seriously, the founders believed that one had a God-given right to rebel against tyranny. The Seal of Virginia glorifies the killing of dictators. How do you expect for that to happen without guns?

Big picture, I have long referred to the First and Second Amendments as the rights of rebellion. The founding fathers believed in a moral, but not legal, right to rebel. The doctrine is enshrined in our Declaration of Independence.

But at the same time, no government can legalize its own destruction. There is no legal right to secede or rebel. It is not workable. So one can only appeal to the moral right of rebellion if the government has become tyrannical. And the founding fathers did believe this could happen here. As Franklin quipped, this is a republic, if we can keep it.

But in my opinion the founders did the next best thing. Think about it. If tyranny should arise, we have the right to speak and print to warn people, to call people to arms. We have the right to assemble. And we have the right arm that crowd...

In short we have a have a right to raise an army and arm it. All of that is legal. It is simply that the moment the assembly becomes violent (remember it is a right to peaceable assembly), that it becomes illegal. In other words, preparation for rebellion is legal; but the act of rebellion is illegal and you will have to make the appeal to heaven for the righteousness of it as our founders did in 1776.

Which is not to say that we will need to rebel anytime soon. As I said to someone just this morning, I don’t expect this to happen even once in my lifetime. But as Kozinsky said in my last post, this is a doomsday provision, a last resort to be use in extremis and we cannot afford to meet that situation unprepared—i.e. unarmed.

Incidentally, even the part of the First Amendment that concerns itself with Freedom of Religion might be in part about securing the right of rebellion. As my Constitutional hero Thaddeus Stevens pointed out, tyrants often used religious suppression as a cover for political suppression. If you were a political opponent of the king, and he was Catholic and you were a Protestant, it served as a ready excuse to suppress you.

I've never seen that articulated like this...

Spoiler:
2. The Battles of Lexington and Concord were prompted by an attempt by the British to take away our arms. Those of us playing Assassin’s Creed 3 were recently reminded of this fact. See? Video games are useful after all!

Wait wut? ... need to read up on those battles...

Spoiler:
3. The fact that no one has attempted to overthrow democracy from within, in America, is not proof we don’t need the Second Amendment; it is proof it is working. Like I have repeatedly said, one of the purposes of the Second Amendment is to protect all of the other amendments. And a common response to that argument is that in 200+ years under our Constitution, no serious attempt at creating a dictatorship has ever been tried. I mean okay, maybe Aaron Burr was up to that (maybe, his exactly plans were pretty murky), and there was a brief danger that the military would bully Congress that George Washington famously diffused that could have led to a military junta if Washington hadn’t acted, but by and large no one has tried to make anyone dictator of America or anything horrible like that.

But there is a chicken and egg problem to that argument. Certainly if anyone has the impulse to become Generalissimo of America, they have to recognize that 1) it isn’t likely to work if only because we will rise up against that and 2) he or she is not likely to survive the attempt. So just as more guns lead to less crime, more guns not only protects you in case someone attempts to overthrow the republic as they did in Rome, but it discourages the attempt.

Its true that guns can sometime be a deterence....

Spoiler:
4. Liberals, please stop saying that the Second Amendment is limited to the technology of the times. How many times do I hear liberals say the Second Amendment only applies to muskets? This is particularly funny in one case because the person also maintained that the First Amendment applied to video games. Hey, the founding fathers played Pong, right?

Mind you, I am not putting down the idea of applying the First Amendment or any other part of the Constitution to modern technology. The First Amendment applies to movies, television, radio, CD’s, mp3 players, smart phones, the internet, telegraph and video games and anything else I might have left out of that sort. I think the Fifth Amendment demands that if a man is accused of rape and semen is found at the scene, that DNA testing must be performed. I believe the Federal Government has a right to create an Air Force even though there is nothing about it in the Constitution. And I believe that the Second Amendment is not frozen in the technology of the time in which it was written. That is why it guarantees a right to bear “arms” and not “muskets.”

On the other hand, I don’t take this as a right of an individual to keep and bear a nuclear weapon. It’s not that a nuke isn’t an “arm.” It plainly is. But I do believe in a reasonable limiting principle of constitutional interpretation. The Supreme Court enunciated it in Dartmouth College v. Woodward. The court was discussing whether the Contracts Clause applied to school charters and the Supreme Court ruled that it did. And in doing so it had to ask whether a charter was a “contract” within the meaning of the Constitution against the objection that the Founders never considered that it might apply to that. The Supreme Court brushed that objection aside, declaring that:

It is not enough to say, that this particular case was not in the mind of the convention, when the article was framed, nor of the American people, when it was adopted. It is necessary to go further, and to say that, had this particular case been suggested, the language would have been so varied, as to exclude it, or it would have been made a special exception. The case being within the words of the rule, must be within its operation likewise, unless there be something in the literal construction, so obviously absurd or mischievous, or repugnant to the general spirit of the instrument, as to justify those who expound the constitution in making it an exception.


So you have a two tiered test. The first is if you can show that if the founders realized the implications of their words they would have gone and changed what they were writing to exclude it in some fashion. Failing that, if applying the rule is either absurd or mischievous or otherwise undermines the rest of the Constitution, then the courts can carve out an exception

I think a purported right to bear nuclear weapons falls within both tests. I think if you went back in time to the founding and (after successfully convincing them you are actually from the future) you explained to the founders about nuclear weapons, they are extremely likely to have tacked on “except nuclear weapons” somewhere in the Second Amendment.

And even if they wouldn’t, a right to bear nukes does undermine democracy itself and thus is “repugnant to the general spirit” of the Constitution. If a man can build a nuke in downtown Manhattan and threaten to detonate it if he doesn’t get a harem of college cheerleaders or perhaps something more reasonable, like a 32 oz. slurpee, if a man can hold a whole city hostage this way, this is a threat to democracy itself. So I believe the courts are justified in carving out a nuclear exception to the term “arms.”

But I will add that often the very same people who believe I should not be able to own a gun don’t seem terribly worried about Iran having a nuke. Everyone believes that guns should be kept out of the hands of criminals and nutcases. Isn’t the government of Iran both?


This is one of the better retort to counter the whole strawman of... isn't a nuke protected by the 2nd Amendment?

Spoiler:
5. Historically governments have taken guns away from groups they hated. Did you know that the English have a Bill of Rights? Indeed I suspect many of you educated in America didn’t know this, nor did you know that the British had their own revolution.

If I can go off on a tangent (and since it is my blog, I can), this is a bit of ignored history in America, and I suspect in England, too. The English had their own revolution, called The Glorious Revolution of 1688 where they ran out their king, briefly became a dictatorship and then settled into something close to their current system where parliament runs the show in reality, and the king is largely a figurehead. And in that revolution there are two documents that justified their action: John Locke’s Second Treatise on Government and the English Bill of Rights.

Anyone who reads Locke’s book and the English Bill of Rights, and looks toward our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights will get a sense of deja vous. It’s very much like our founders placed those British documents in a blender and then reassembled them. For instance, the famous preamble to the American Declaration of Independence reads like a Cliff’s Notes version of Locke’s book. Indeed I once ran a “compare documents” function in Word using copies of both and virtually every word in the Declaration of Independence is taken from Locke, with only a few really notable exceptions.

Meanwhile, the English Bill of Rights is divided into two parts. The first is a list of grievances against the King justifying running him out of the country, and the second is a list of rights this newly freed England would guarantee. And if you read the list of grievances, you realize that the founding fathers in America were very intentionally aping the style of their English forefathers, when writing out their list of grievances in the Declaration of Independence.

All of this leads one to a revelation about the founders of America. What they were really doing, in writing their Declaration of Independence, was taking the principles of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and throwing it back in the faces of those in England who revered that prior revolution. They were saying, “you rightly rebelled against the crown in 1688, but you are as tyrannical over us as the king was over you.”

This leads one to discover the dirty secret of the success of our revolution. We didn’t win the war by kicking the English’s collective behinds, and our greatest ally was not the French. We won the Revolution by convincing the British we were right. This is why, for instance, the Revolutionaries called themselves Whigs and the loyalists Tories; that was the name of the two dominant political parties at the time in England, and the Whigs were associated with the Glorious Revolution and tended to recognize the justice of our cause, and the Tories did not. Our greatest allies, during the Revolution, therefore, was not the nation of France, but the English who decided we had the right of it.

(This also explains why the Federalist party believed in an alliance with England. It was not due to a love of British tyranny, but because they recognized that only half of the country was our enemy during the Revolution.)

Which is all tangential to the point I was getting to, which is to talk about the second half of the English Bill of Rights, which reads very much like the American Bill of Rights, prohibiting the English government from various abuses of power. For instance, it states “That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted;” which is virtually identical to our Eighth Amendment which states that “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” Aside from an extra “that” and changing “ought” to the more commanding “shall” they are the same.

Of course the crucial difference between the English Bill of Rights and the American one is that the English Bill of Rights was simply that: a bill. It was just another law, which could be undone by passing another law and has been so undone. By comparison, the American Bill of Rights is part of a Constitution that cannot be easily changed.

Anyway, circling around to my point, buried in the English Bill of Rights is their version of the Second Amendment: “That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence [sic] suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law[.]” As I joked repeatedly on Twitter, this is surely done because they liked Catholics better than Protestants, right?

And of course that is not the case. The fathers of the Glorious Revolution were infected with some anti-Catholic bigotry, which is why they included that limitation.

Likewise, in the American South after the Civil War the KKK and the Red Shirts and like-minded organizations set about making sure black people were disarmed using means that were formally legal and otherwise (the KKK was a terrorist organization, after all). This was not done for their benefit but so they could be more easily reduced to a state barely distinguishable from slavery—indeed often so they could be literally returned to slavery.*

Which kind of bleeds into my next point...

This part is my favorite... linking our own independence to the Glorious Revolution. I also liked the bit about "We didn’t win the war by kicking the English’s collective behinds, and our greatest ally was not the French. We won the Revolution by convincing the British we were right. "

Spoiler:
6. You can’t always trust the government to defend you. First, let us recognize a long and sad history of the unequal protection of the law by law enforcement, particularly aimed at African Americans and other minorities. The evidence that the police can be infected with racism is rifle and championed primarily by prominent liberals. For instance, Public Enemy once decried the alleged slowness of emergency response in black communities by declaring that 911’s a Joke. I don’t know if it is true or not, but how does one argue that simultaneously the cops don’t care as much about protecting your life and property while claiming that no one should be able to protect your life and property but the same police? I wonder if Al Sharpton will answer that question.

And of course that ignores the history of police brutality and racist violence by the police. I think it is particularly hard to explain to Rodney King why he should trust the police to protect his life...

Yeah, I am sorry if I part ways with my conservative brethren on that, but there is no justification for all of what you see in that video. And while I don’t endorse riots, I understand the deep frustration that drove them. They were saying, “we got it on video and you still won’t do anything about it?”

Yeah, I can’t relate to that at all.

And while I am fully convinced that OJ Simpson killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, I am equally convinced that Mark Fuhrman was racist as all get out, and screwed up that prosecution as a result. So why should your safety be left solely in the hands of someone who might hate you for the color of your skin?

Now in all of that I don’t want to sound like I think the police are all evil or anything like that. I believe the vast majority of the police are good and honorable people who strive to provide the best protection for all of the citizens under their watch. But it has to be remembered, sometimes the police are bad or negligent.. Consider for instance the facts in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales.

The Supreme Court held in that case that even if the woman could establish that the police failed to enforce the TRO, that they were under no obligation to enforce it and thus she couldn’t sue them. Which I think is the wrong decision, but it means as a matter of law, the police don’t have to protect you. And in Ms. Gonzales’ case that is exactly what appears to have happened.

And even if the police are being as diligent as they can be, you still can’t one hundred percent depend on them. First it is a cliché to say that when seconds count the police are minutes away, because it is true. The average police response time is six minutes, during which a lot of evil can happen. Second, even when you feel rightfully threatened by someone, there can be problems with proof. If a person threatens you, but it is solely your word against his, the courts might not believe you. And of course there are situations where you know a person is dangerous but they have not been stupid enough to make an actionable threat.

Like I said most cops do their best, but they can’t be everywhere and see and hear everything, nor do I think most people would want them to. So there will always be a gap, a space where the law is not able to reach, where you have no choice but to defend yourself. And that leads to my next point.

Don't have much more to add about this... police can't be everywhere, nor are they expected to provide protection.

Spoiler:
7. A gun is a great equalizer. Back in my Patterico days I wrote a post about disabilities and gun ownership. Let me quote from that extensively:
And gun ownership by the handicapped also taps into another big philosophical belief I have about the handicapped. In a very real way, humanity is the disabled species. Think about it. Compared to other species, we are slow, weak, blind and deaf; we have little sense of smell, our teeth and “claws” are weak, etc. If left naked in the wild we would be easy supper for the other animals out there. And yet we dominate the planet for one simple reason: our brains. And those brains have allowed us to create tools that in turn makes up for our deficiencies. So we can’t run as fast as a cheetah, but we invented motor cars that allowed us to move even faster and for long periods of time. We can’t see like an eagle, so we invented the telescope and can see things no other creature can. Our brains haven’t just leveled the playing field between animal and man, but in fact gave us a critical advantage over them which is why we rule this planet and no longer have any natural predator (except ourselves).

And in no area has our brains been more critical in making up for our physical deficiencies than in combat. Now we might suspect a few tough souls like Chuck Norris or Todd Palin** could take on a grizzly bear with their bare hands, but for most of us, if we don’t have a gun we are SOL (and from my understanding, even with a gun they are hard to kill). Our only option is to run.

So to tell a disabled person that they can’t use artificial help goes directly against the grain of what we have done as humans. For instance, I have difficulty writing by hand. But it only affects my ability to write by hand, so I buy a computer and I am rendered “normal.”

Likewise, Mr. Boyd has cerebral palsy. I have known people with that condition and it almost certainly impairs his ability to win a fistfight. I’m not saying he can’t do it, but it’s almost certainly harder. Now, the anti-gun approach would tell him tough and that he would just have to remain defenseless and hope that if someone attacks him that he cops get there in time. But the second amendment allows him to say, “screw that,” and defend his own life and safety as need be.

Now yes, obviously there are some disabilities that make it unacceptably dangerous to carry a gun. We should at all times be reasonable about this and I expect as Mr. Boyd writes about this as promised, he will describe how he and others can safely operate a gun. And I would be surprised if a blind man can ever safely operate a gun. But at the same time we shouldn’t be too quick to assume a person should not own a gun.

Likewise, the same can be said for women facing down their attackers. Now I am enough of a egalitarian to believe that there are women who can beat a man in a fistfight. But let’s face it, it takes an unusually weak man or an unusually strong woman to do it. The average woman doesn’t have much of a chance. Even if a woman has a knife and the man has bare hands, one needs strength to drive a knife into another and women would still have a hard time fighting back.

But if you put a gun in her hand, and her chances get much better. You make sure she is well trained in their use, and they improve even more so.

This applies particularly to the subject of abused women. First as I noted before, most wife- and girlfriend-beating takes place in private, where the only witnesses are the victim and the perpetrator. So there is a proof problem involved in such cases. And even if you gather enough proof to get a restraining order, they don’t usually stop the abuser. Which is not to say an abused woman shouldn’t get restraining orders; they provide useful legal clarity should an altercation occur and they do occasionally deter the pig. But they aren’t some kind of magic force field that will save most women from an abusive ex. And a gun is no guarantee of their safety either; but it gives them a fighting chance.

On a related note, many liberals say that gun ownership should be limited to revolvers and not allow for semi-automatics that use clips. These are people who have apparently never fired a gun. In all bluntness, my wife has tried both and she is physically incapable of firing a revolver with any kind of accuracy. This is because a revolver requires more hand strength than a semi-automatic. As a result you have to squeeze the gun harder to pull the trigger and thus it is harder to keep it steady as you do. But she is a great shot when using our semi-automatic. :-) The same can probably be said for those with certain handicaps.

And even if you are a burly man, and don’t have compassion for those who are weaker who would like to defend themselves, too, let’s not forget that you can be outnumbered. If four men are breaking into your home, I don’t care how strong you are, you are not likely to win that fight without a gun. And that is assuming they are unarmed.

Indeed this possibility deflates the argument that you will never need a so-called assault rifle for self-defense. Liberals often argue that such weapons are only designed to kill large numbers of people, as though it is impossible to need to defend yourself against a large number of people. If four criminals are trying to break into your home, and they are armed, an assault rifle might be the difference between life and death.

I think he'd get sucked into the whole "what is an assault weapon" debate...

Spoiler:
8. Finally, it is the anti-gun left that is paranoid, not the pro-gun right. The left loves the demonize gun owners as just a bunch of crazies sitting in their basements ruminating on black helicopters and the like. But as I outlined above, there are many rational reasons to believe that individuals should be armed to defend themselves and as a rule I found my fellow gun owners to be imminently rational.

“We don’t want the wild west” is a frequent refrain by liberals. The irony is that the wild west was not what most people imagine. As Cracked demonstrates in a gloriously deflating article the west was not really that violent at all:
The Insanity:

A gloriously mustached man sits at a card game in an old saloon, surrounded by cowboys and surprisingly fresh-faced prostitutes. He looks up, and notices that the player opposite him is hiding an extra card up his sleeve. He calls him on it, the word yellow is pronounced as 'yeller,' and pretty soon they're facing off in the city square. There's a long moment before the cheater moves for his hip holster, but he's not fast enough. Quick as lightning, the gambler draws his revolver and shoots the cheat dead between the eyes.

The cowboys and prostitutes go back to their drinks, well-accustomed to this sort of random violence, as the man nonchalantly twirls his pistol and says: "Guess he couldn't read my poker face."

A hundred years of Westerns have taught us that this is how you lived and died in the Wild West. The quicker draw lived to gun-fight another day. It was essentially a roving single elimination rock, paper, scissors tournament that didn't end until you were dead.

But in Reality...

How many murders do you suppose these old western towns saw a year? Let's say the bloodiest, gun-slingingest of the famous cattle towns with the cowboys doing quick-draws at high noon every other day. A hundred? More?

How about five? That was the most murders any old-west town saw in any one year. Ever. Most towns averaged about 1.5 murders a year, and not all of those were shooting. You were way more likely to be murdered in Baltimore in 2008 than you were in Tombstone in 1881, the year of the famous gunfight at the OK Corral (body count: three) and the town's most violent year ever.

Sorry to break it to you folks, but pretty much every western you have ever seen is full of it. The article goes on to explain why we believe it and the short version is it started because, as Johnny Rotten once said, “tourists have money”—that is towns discovered that gullible tourists loved to hear those stories. It was an early civic version of gangsta rap, which I am convinced is equally full of crap.**

And then we continued to believe it, because as a fantasy it is frakking cool. Seriously, look at that picture on the right! Even decades later, that is just plain cool.

But as a reality there is simply no way people would have allowed things to be so continuously out of hand. It’s fun to play in the world of Red Dead Redemption, but it wouldn’t be fun to live there and thinking that world is realistic is as silly as believing Grand Theft Auto--where you can kill twenty cops and only pay a fine if you are caught--is true-to-life.

But it all reflects a deep paranoia on the part of the left. If we all have guns we are going to shoot each other over stupid crap, just like in those really cool Clint Eastwood movies. On a similar note, I have pointed out several times that if people are armed they might stop such massacres very early on and save dozens of lives. That seems to be a no-brainer to me, but this has actually led some liberals to argue that ordinary people having guns would have made things more dangerous to innocent bystanders, because ordinary citizens would fire recklessly or something.

I think that regular people, if they are armed, will generally only draw their weapon when they have a rational reason to fear for their lives or the lives of others. I think that they will generally only fire if they are left with no choice, and I think that they will generally take care that they only hit their intended target. I expect them to practice with and maintain any guns they own. On the other hand, many on the anti-gun left believe that ordinary people will generally start killing people at the slightest provocation, will shoot when unjustified and will not take the care to make sure they hit only what they intend to. Who exactly are the paranoid ones?

A while back I wrote about the depressing real life heroism we saw at the Ft. Hood, which was, ridiculously, a gun-free zone. We might also remember Victoria Soto, one of the true heroes of Sandy Hook, another gun-free-zone. Let’s let her sister describe what she did:
It came as no surprise to Carlee and Victoria’s mom that her daughter died trying to save kids.

“She was truly selfless,” Donna Soto said of her 27-year-old “Vicki,” who was shot trying to shield her first-graders from madman Adam Lanza’s assault.

Vicki ushered her tiny charges away from the door of Classroom 10 as Lanza, 20, descended. She ordered them into a closet, but six of the panicked kids got out — and Vicki dived to save them as Lanza trained his rifle on them. They all died.

“She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children,” Soto’s mom told CNN. “She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day, any day, and for any reason.”

“So it doesn’t surprise anyone that knows Vicki that she did this.”

You should indeed read the whole thing and pay tribute to her bravery. But I can’t help thinking to myself, imagine if she had a gun and knew how to use it. Run that scenario through again. Maybe she could have shot back. Maybe we wouldn’t be praising her for dying for her kids, but for ending the rampage or at least making him back off and finding an easier target. And maybe the honors we are rightfully pouring on her would not have been posthumous.

Or maybe we don’t have to speculate. Consider as a counter-example, the shooting at a theater in San Antonio on Sunday night. Liberals cited this as another example of why we need to prohibit guns, but Sooper Mexican caught the real story with this superbly written headline: “Crazed Gunman Stopped from Movie Massacre by ‘Gun-Free Zone’ Sign... Oh wait. No, a woman SHOT him.” You can read what he wrote about it, here but by all indications it appears that another serious massacre was about to occur when the gunman was shot.

Which is not to say good people with guns will never be shot. Of course sometimes they will be taken by surprise, or just won’t be as good as their opponents. But having a gun at least gives them a fighting chance. Victoria Soto didn’t have that, so all she could do is try to shield her students with her own body. It’s heroic, but it might not have been necessary if her state allowed her to keep a gun in school.

Again... I'm not advocating that we'd arm every teacher... someone trained onsite may have prevented or reduced the impact.

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Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Sebster doesn't do citations, man. Too mainstream.

_Tim?


Oh look, a baseless drive-by bitch.

I mean, fething hell, you can complain I'm not that polite, or maybe that I'm not that constructive in debates. But you can't complain I don't give references. That's just bs.


Psst, it was a friendly rib, Sebs. Calm down. I actually like your posts, though I disagree with you often.

_Tim?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it strikes me as interesting that Switzerland require male citizens to join the peoples' militia and own a military grade gun they keep at home? What's the homicide rate in Switzerland?

Mind you, such a requirement in the US would probably cause more deaths. Us Yanks are a rowdy bunch.

_Tim?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 23:24:08


   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 dogma wrote:

Inherence isn't relevant, only generality is. And yes, people that are not soldiers are generally inferior to soldiers.


Might want to look into the battle of Kastelli Hill then. German Fallschirmjäger were given as hard a time by armed farmers as they were by the ANZACs. A lot of them didn't survive the landing because of men with knives and clubs.

Oh, and.... I seem to recall some other country where a bunch of citizens gathered up and formed an army and defeated professional soldiers from not only the foremost army in the world, but also mercenaries from half of Europe...

what was it called again...?

Oh, yeah, The United States.


Motivation is more important than training. Training and motivation together, though, are very, very dangerous.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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The Void

 reds8n wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

You have to shoot to qualify as a CHL as well. Most cops couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.


Nor can most CHLs.


http://samuel-warde.com/2012/12/concealed-carry-permit-holders-live-in-a-dream-world-video/


That particular study has been disproven for poor methodology and researcher bias so many times as to be laughable. You'll notice only one of the participants in the study has weapons experience (where most CHL holders have to have basic training above and beyond plinking at the range, many more actually go well beyond that) is doubled up on with a ringer in the class room. It's also clear the active shooter knows who the defensive shooter is upon entry. So yes if you throw a random yahoo with a gun, no training and no mental preparation/combat mindset what so ever into an active shooter environment they won't pull a John Wayne. Shocker.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

What's the homicide rate in Switzerland?


In 2005 93 people were convicted of homicide in Switzerland. Not sure how many of those were firearm related.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Now... I'm generally a fan of CNN... but, this is horse gak and appalling:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/living/men-guns-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

For the past few days, Americans have been weeping together and wringing our hands once again at the senseless tragedy of a mass murder inside a school. The horrific scene in Newtown, Connecticut, is now seared permanently in our collective conscience, as we search for answers. We'll look at the photograph of Adam Lanza and ask over and over again how he could have come to such a deadly crossroads.
We still know nothing about his motives, only the devastating carnage he wrought. And yet we've already heard from experts who talk about mental illness, Asperger's syndrome, depression, and autism. The chorus of gun boosters has defensively chimed in about how gun control would not have prevented this.
Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee offered the theory that since "we have systematically removed God from our schools, should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?" (As if those heathen children deserved it?)
Thinking twice about violent video games
All the while, we continue to miss other crucial variables -- even though they are staring right back at us when we look at that photograph. Adam Lanza was a middle class white guy.
If the shooter were black and the school urban, we'd hear about the culture of poverty; about how inner-city life breeds crime and violence; perhaps even some theories about a purported tendency among blacks towards violence.
As we've seen in the past week, it's not only those living on the fringes of society who express anger through gun violence.
Yet the obvious fact that Lanza -- and nearly all the recent mass murderers who targeted non-work settings -- were middle class white boys seems to barely register. Look again at the pictures of Jared Lee Loughner (Tucson), James Eagan Holmes (Aurora) and Wade Michael Page (Oak Creek) -- a few of the mass killers of the past couple of years. (Yes, the case of Seung-Hui Cho, the perpetrator at Virginia Tech, the worst school shooting in our history, stands out as the exception. And worth discussing.)
Opinion: Get serious about mental health care
Why are angry young men setting out to kill entire crowds of strangers?
Motivations are hard to pin down, but gender is the single most obvious and intractable variable when it comes to violence in America. Men and boys are responsible for 95% of all violent crimes in this country. "Male criminal participation in serious crimes at any age greatly exceeds that of females, regardless of source of data, crime type, level of involvement, or measure of participation" is how the National Academy of Sciences summed up the extant research.
Stay in touch!
Don't miss out on the conversation we're having at CNN Living. "Like" us on Facebook and have your say! Get the latest stories and tell us what's influencing your life.
How does masculinity figure into this? From an early age, boys learn that violence is not only an acceptable form of conflict resolution, but one that is admired. However the belief that violence is an inherently male characteristic is a fallacy. Most boys don't carry weapons, and almost all don't kill: are they not boys? Boys learn it.
More reading: I have Asperger's and I am just like you
They learn it from their fathers. They learn it from a media that glorifies it, from sports heroes who commit felonies and get big contracts, from a culture saturated in images of heroic and redemptive violence. They learn it from each other.
In talking to more than 400 young men for my book, "Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men," I heard over and over again what they learn about violence. They learn that if they are crossed, they have the manly obligation to fight back. They learn that they are entitled to feel like a real man, and that they have the right to annihilate anyone who challenges that sense of entitlement.
Opinion: How a boy becomes a killer
This sense of entitlement is part of the package deal of American manhood -- the culture that doesn't start the fight, as Margaret Mead pointed out in her analysis of American military history, but retaliates far out of proportion to the initial grievance. They learn that "aggrieved entitlement" is a legitimate justification for violent explosion.
The easy availability of guns is another crucial variable. After the terrible school shooting in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, Great Britain enacted several laws that effectively made owning handguns illegal in that country. The murder rate in the U.S. is more than three times higher than Britain.
And yes, boys have resorted to violence for a long time, but sticks and fists and even the occasional switchblade do not create the bloodbaths of the past few years. In 2011, more than 80% of all homicides among boys aged 15 to 19 were firearm related.
We need a conversation about gun control laws. And far more sweeping -- and necessary -- is a national meditation on how our ideals of manhood became so entangled with violence.
In school shootings, patterns and warning signs
It's also worth discussing why so many of these young mass murderers are white. Surely boys of color have that same need to prove their masculinity, and a similar sense of entitlement to annihilate those who threaten it. Perhaps the only difference is that it seems to be nearly the exclusive province of white boys to so dramatically expand the range of their revenge and seek to destroy the entire world, not simply the person or group that committed the supposed offense. Perhaps. It's a conversation worth having.
I am not for a moment suggesting we substitute race or gender for the other proximate causes of this tragedy: lax gun laws, mental illness. I am arguing only that we can never fully understand it, unless we also add these elements to our equation. Without them, the story is entirely about him, the shooter. But the bigger story is also about us.
In the coming weeks, we'll learn more about Adam Lanza, his motives, his particular madness. We'll hear how he "snapped" or that he was seriously mentally ill. We'll try to explain it by setting him apart, by distancing him from the rest of us.
Risk factors among shooters
And we'll continue to miss the point. Not only are those children at Sandy Hook Elementary School our children. Adam Lanza is our child also. Of course, he was mad -- as were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and Seung-Hui Cho, Jared Lee Loughner, James Eagan Holmes, and Wade Michael Page -- and the ever-longer list of boys and young men who have exploded in a paroxysm of vengeful violence in recent years. In a sense, they weren't deviants, but over-conformists to norms of masculinity that prescribe violence as a solution. Like real men, they didn't just get mad, they got even. Until we transform that definition of manhood, this terrible equation of masculinity and violence will continue to produce such horrific sums.


Particularly this...
We need a conversation about gun control laws. And far more sweeping -- and necessary -- is a national meditation on how our ideals of manhood became so entangled with violence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 00:38:06


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Leerstetten, Germany

He has some points, look at what children and teens are being "taught" in culture and it is easy to see that violence is often presented as an answer.

It's a "come at me brah" mentality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 00:42:55


 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
He has some points, look at what children and teens are being "taught" in culture and it is easy to see that violence is often presented as an answer.

It's a "come at me brah" mentality.

Well... I guess it's at least worth gnawing over.

I'm just tired of the whole "blame it on video games or rap or that we can't pray in school or etc..."... notice a trend here? Most of the time the actual donkey-cave isn't called out as an donkey-cave.

Maybe I'm getting bit jaded.

gak... I fething love violent video games/movies... I think I turned out okay!

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 whembly wrote:

We need a conversation about gun control laws. And far more sweeping -- and necessary -- is a national meditation on how our ideals of manhood became so entangled with violence.



Well, the author of the article is hawking a book on the subject of violence as a male past time in the US.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 01:36:39



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
He has some points, look at what children and teens are being "taught" in culture and it is easy to see that violence is often presented as an answer.

It's a "come at me brah" mentality.

Well... I guess it's at least worth gnawing over.

I'm just tired of the whole "blame it on video games or rap or that we can't pray in school or etc..."... notice a trend here? Most of the time the actual donkey-cave isn't called out as an donkey-cave.

Maybe I'm getting bit jaded.

gak... I fething love violent video games/movies... I think I turned out okay!


I don't think he is blaming it as much on video games or rap, or any single particular thing. It is just more of a cultural shift and what our kids are exposed to on multiple levels.

You will always have the same age-old argument about violent video games. The question there will be if they just desensitize us more as they become more realistic. I don't think they "train" you or anything like that. But games are just a very small aspect of it.

"Violence as a culture" is getting to be included in everything that they can be exposed to. How many reality shows are there that are full of arguing and always feature some fist fight in the trailer, in the tease, in the finale, in the replay, in the recap, in the season finale "let's sit down and talk about how you all punched each other!" The famous people on the reality shows all get into physical fights and that is part of their fame. That's the "come at me brah" phenomenon. Watch reality TV and you know that all problems are solved by yelling and fighting.

Sports and music and movies all have violence as an answer. How many athletes and musicians are getting into fights. Chris Brown beats his girlfriend and gets a tattoo of her beaten face on his neck. Look kids, violence is cool and makes you cool. Of course the argument of violent lyrics and movies is as old as lyrics and movies.

Facebook, Twitter, 4chan, Youtube: violence everywhere. I'm not talking about violent TV shows or anything like that. I am talking about all the "cool" videos of groups of kids jumping each other, kicking the feth out of each other, leaving each other as bloody pulps, and putting it online for others to see how cool they are.

It's not any one thing, it's the balance of everything together that has people concerned about a "culture of violence".

It has a place in the discussion as well.
   
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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html

I'd say this table was also relevant from Dr. Kleck's body of work, his own 2.5 million number was an average of thirteen different surveys.


And they're all the same methodology - surveys of the general public. Using the same inappropriate methodology thirteen times and then taking an average doesn't make the method work.


*snicker* still seems bloody silly in the first place. Paintball's clearly ridiculous "Gimme your wallet or I'll bruise you!" and while I can see an airgun being a bit dangerous... well I got my first rifle when I was twelve and I had a bb gun or two before that. So it's mind blowing that one would legislate a child's learning tool. I am convinced there is no better way to learn about firearms and firearm safety then having one's own BB gun. Not only is it yours, so you have the pride of ownership thing, at that age knocking down cans and harassing the neighborhood long tailed minibears (squirrels) is still awesome assuming you haven't been exposed to Duty of the Call Eleventy Billion: We Still Haven't Hired a Decent Writing Team.


Yeah. I've got really fond memories of firing a BB gun on a mate's farm when I was a kid. That kind of fun has been yet another casualty of the kids in cotton wool thing we're increasingly doing.

Now you can say that's ridiculous, but the Brady campaign already tried it with scoped bolt action rifles back in the 80s and early 90s. Not that having an Accuracy International with all the bells and whistles on it makes any one more or less a sniper if they aren't one already but regardless. The word games employed by the ban/control lobby only serve to inspire fear and spread disinformation, I think that should rightfully get everyone ticked off no matter what side of the issue you're on.


Yeah, definitely. Reading about the crazy ass shenanigans of the Brady campaign was what started me on a fairly long journey of being generally opposed to further gun control. That said, I think it's been generally positive that most of the talk this time around has been on checks on gun owners, rather than building a big list of various scary gun components. I suspect the latter will pop up soon enough, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Seaward wrote:
Just bear in mind they're coming for the violent murder trainers like Halo and Black Ops 2, too. Even the Fox idiots won't shut up about gaming.


One of my aunties posted on facebook that all these violent video games surely played a part. She even went on to say that something was giving these kids such good aim (somehow thinking that twiddling a little xbox thumbstick meant you could shoot a gun).

I fething hate facebook politics, but I couldn't stay out of that one. I mean, every developed country has loads of kids playing violent video games, but these kinds of killings aren't anywhere near as common outside of the US, so violent games just makes no sense as an explanation. Some people, though, don't seem to care that it doesn't make any sense, they don't like the idea of kids playing violent games, so they blame them when something like this happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Psst, it was a friendly rib, Sebs. Calm down. I actually like your posts, though I disagree with you often.

_Tim?


Oh, sorry. Missed your tone completely. Text based medium and all that. It just came in the midst of a bunch of people making some noise about me not having a reference (weirdly enough coming a couple of weeks after Seaward was complaining that it wasn't fair because I had information, so that was weird in itself...), so I missed that you might be joking. Not that I'm making excuses, it was my bad and knowing you I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. Sorry.


Oh, and it strikes me as interesting that Switzerland require male citizens to join the peoples' militia and own a military grade gun they keep at home? What's the homicide rate in Switzerland?

Mind you, such a requirement in the US would probably cause more deaths. Us Yanks are a rowdy bunch.

_Tim?


Yeah, reading about guns in Switzerland is a really good way of learning about what's really the cause of the problem. One thing that stood out is that while a big deal is made of the various controls and checks on gun ownership, they're actually not that different, on paper, to the processes in place in the US. The difference is that these processes are taken much more seriously in Switzerland, and surrounding gun culture these you don't have all the crazy 'durn government taking away our guns/freedom' nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Inherence isn't relevant, only generality is. And yes, people that are not soldiers are generally inferior to soldiers.


Might want to look into the battle of Kastelli Hill then. German Fallschirmjäger were given as hard a time by armed farmers as they were by the ANZACs. A lot of them didn't survive the landing because of men with knives and clubs.

Oh, and.... I seem to recall some other country where a bunch of citizens gathered up and formed an army and defeated professional soldiers from not only the foremost army in the world, but also mercenaries from half of Europe...

what was it called again...?

Oh, yeah, The United States.


Motivation is more important than training. Training and motivation together, though, are very, very dangerous.


Well, add in co-ordination. Even motivated, well trained troops will fair poorly when they're poorly led. Look no further than the horrendous losses the Fallschirmjäger suffered on Crete for proof of that (or for the failure of the Allied forces to secure the airfields in the same battle). Point being though, once you've got motivation an co-ordination, getting your hands on some guns is a piece of cake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
In 2005 93 people were convicted of homicide in Switzerland. Not sure how many of those were firearm related.


Most, I think its about 80% of all cases. But the murder rate overall is still very low, which is the thing that matters. Whereas the US, in comparison to other wealthy, developed nations, has a much higher murder rate. Which means guns likely are a factor to some extent, but clearly aren't the only issue, and probably aren't the major one.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 03:06:43


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
He has some points, look at what children and teens are being "taught" in culture and it is easy to see that violence is often presented as an answer.

It's a "come at me brah" mentality.

Well... I guess it's at least worth gnawing over.

I'm just tired of the whole "blame it on video games or rap or that we can't pray in school or etc..."... notice a trend here? Most of the time the actual donkey-cave isn't called out as an donkey-cave.

Maybe I'm getting bit jaded.

gak... I fething love violent video games/movies... I think I turned out okay!


I don't think he is blaming it as much on video games or rap, or any single particular thing. It is just more of a cultural shift and what our kids are exposed to on multiple levels.

You will always have the same age-old argument about violent video games. The question there will be if they just desensitize us more as they become more realistic. I don't think they "train" you or anything like that. But games are just a very small aspect of it.

"Violence as a culture" is getting to be included in everything that they can be exposed to. How many reality shows are there that are full of arguing and always feature some fist fight in the trailer, in the tease, in the finale, in the replay, in the recap, in the season finale "let's sit down and talk about how you all punched each other!" The famous people on the reality shows all get into physical fights and that is part of their fame. That's the "come at me brah" phenomenon. Watch reality TV and you know that all problems are solved by yelling and fighting.

Sports and music and movies all have violence as an answer. How many athletes and musicians are getting into fights. Chris Brown beats his girlfriend and gets a tattoo of her beaten face on his neck. Look kids, violence is cool and makes you cool. Of course the argument of violent lyrics and movies is as old as lyrics and movies.

Facebook, Twitter, 4chan, Youtube: violence everywhere. I'm not talking about violent TV shows or anything like that. I am talking about all the "cool" videos of groups of kids jumping each other, kicking the feth out of each other, leaving each other as bloody pulps, and putting it online for others to see how cool they are.

It's not any one thing, it's the balance of everything together that has people concerned about a "culture of violence".

It has a place in the discussion as well.

I like how you presented it than he did... *pondering*

I believe violence in culture has always existed... it's just that the medium changes.

It is certainly worth having a discussion...

One thing I'd advocate... I'd trade in violent shows/music/games for bewbs... bewbs and ass makes the world go around The bible thumbers would have an apoplexy though!

Remember the hysteria over Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction"? Folks said that their kids would be damaged beyond repair. Funny story... so, this happened during the Superbowl halftime... my father inlaw at the time said this 5 second later: "Someone will have that screencapped and uploaded on the internet by the time you walk in the office and google it". So, I took his wager and immediately went to the office and HE WAS RIGHT! I swear to Buddha, I had the screencap on the monitor in less than 2 minutes after it happened.

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Leerstetten, Germany

I was thinking about boobs when I was typing it, especially compared to Europe.

Violence on TV and the comparison between the US and Europe is something they talk about at times. If I remember right from growing up in Germany there was a lot less violence on our TV and our computer games (they had a nice habit of banning games). So the argument was/is "there is more violence on TV/games in the US and there is more violence in the US" and the correlation/causation was implied.

But there are way more boobs and sex on German TV, but I don't think we have more std's or teen pregnancies. So go figure...
   
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 d-usa wrote:
I was thinking about boobs when I was typing it, especially compared to Europe.


You're a guy. Of course you're thinking about boobs.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

 sebster wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
I was thinking about boobs when I was typing it, especially compared to Europe.


You're a guy. Of course you're thinking about boobs.


Citation needed.

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Eternal Plague

 Monster Rain wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
I was thinking about boobs when I was typing it, especially compared to Europe.


You're a guy. Of course you're thinking about boobs.


Citation needed.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/scientific-proof-that-men-look-at-womens-breasts-first-and-their-face-is-almost-last/story-e6frf00i-1225770286482

WOMEN have long complained that their faces are often the last thing men look at - and now a scientific study has proved them right.

Researchers found that virtually half - 47 per cent - of men first glance at a woman’s breasts.

A third of the "first fixations" are on the waist and hips, while fewer than 20 per cent look at the woman's face.

Not only are breasts often the first thing men look at, they also glance at them for longer than any other body part, the experts discovered, the Daily Mail newspaper in the UK reported.

It’s thought that the reason might be evolutionary, as women with larger chests and slim waists - such as Jennifer Hawkins, Lara Bingle and Rachael Finch - have higher levels of the female hormone oestrogen, indicating greater fertility.

But the researchers conceded that there could be a more prosaic explanation.

"Men may be looking more often at the breasts because they are simply aesthetically pleasing, regardless of the size," they said.

Subjects tested by researchers from New Zealand’s University of Wellington were presented with six images of the same woman, digitally altered to increase or decrease the size of her bust, waist and hips.

The scientists recorded which areas men looked at first, the number of times they looked, and how long their gaze lasted, using cameras and mirrors to measure tiny eye movements.

"Eighty per cent of first fixations were on the breasts and midriff. Men spent consistently more time looking at the breasts and also made significantly more fixations upon them than other regions," the study concluded.

It also found that men began to gaze at the "components of the hourglass figure" within 0.2 seconds.

The research also discovered that few glances were directed at the arms, lower legs and feet.

   
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Texas leads the way in allowing teachers to carry guns.

Meanwhile, at the moment, I give the Assault Weapons Ban a 50/50 shot at passing when it gets introduced in January. I predict it will have the exact same impact it did the first time around - zero reduction in firearm crimes - but hey, it'll make a lot of clueless people feel like they "did something." Meanwhile, an awful lot of gun owners will just switch from fifteen-round 9mm handguns to ten-round .45s.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Thus boosting the weapons industry, at a time when the economy badly needs a lift!

You can't beat Obama for lateral thinking.

Back on topic, as a gun owner, do you think there are too many gun related crimes? I mean, would you like to see a reduction, but you disagree on how it might be done?


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Thus boosting the weapons industry, at a time when the economy badly needs a lift!

You can't beat Obama for lateral thinking.

Back on topic, as a gun owner, do you think there are too many gun related crimes? I mean, would you like to see a reduction, but you disagree on how it might be done?


As a gun owner, I think there are too many crimes of all sorts. I'd like to see a zero percent crime rate. I'd like to see a reduction in firearm homicides, rapes, petty thefts, jaywalking, tax evasion, and the wearing of blue jeans on Noble Street in Anniston, Alabama, as that's apparently illegal.

I don't think proposing legislation that's proven not to work is the way to accomplish any of it.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I think we can agree that guns are not much used in crimes such as false accounting, so I would like to look at violent crime which is their natural milieu.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think we can agree that guns are not much used in crimes such as false accounting, so I would like to look at violent crime which is their natural milieu.

Okay.

Both the CDC and the National Research Council said the Assault Weapons Ban didn't do anything measurable to firearm crime rates. The Department of Justice has said that renewing the ban would make quite possibly no noticeable difference on firearm crime rates, because weapons covered under it are used in such a minute percentage of crimes to begin with.

It doesn't work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 10:18:05


 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Inherence isn't relevant, only generality is. And yes, people that are not soldiers are generally inferior to soldiers.


Might want to look into the battle of Kastelli Hill then. German Fallschirmjäger were given as hard a time by armed farmers as they were by the ANZACs. A lot of them didn't survive the landing because of men with knives and clubs.

Oh, and.... I seem to recall some other country where a bunch of citizens gathered up and formed an army and defeated professional soldiers from not only the foremost army in the world, but also mercenaries from half of Europe...

what was it called again...?

Oh, yeah, The United States.


Motivation is more important than training. Training and motivation together, though, are very, very dangerous.


Wrong on all accounts, that country was called France (plus a Prussian drill sergeant!)

Back to the point I was going to make. I watched that video that reds8n posted, and I must say I am shocked. That Tim guy (and that girl) were a disgrace to the United States. If that is an accurate representation of American youth, it's no wonder the Chinese (and the UN) are licking their lips at the prospect of overtaking America.

Andrew Jackson must be spinning in his grave!

And that's a thousand posts on Dakka. Finally, I'm above the law!!

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 d-usa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
He has some points, look at what children and teens are being "taught" in culture and it is easy to see that violence is often presented as an answer.

It's a "come at me brah" mentality.

Well... I guess it's at least worth gnawing over.

I'm just tired of the whole "blame it on video games or rap or that we can't pray in school or etc..."... notice a trend here? Most of the time the actual donkey-cave isn't called out as an donkey-cave.

Maybe I'm getting bit jaded.

gak... I fething love violent video games/movies... I think I turned out okay!


I don't think he is blaming it as much on video games or rap, or any single particular thing. It is just more of a cultural shift and what our kids are exposed to on multiple levels.

You will always have the same age-old argument about violent video games. The question there will be if they just desensitize us more as they become more realistic. I don't think they "train" you or anything like that. But games are just a very small aspect of it.

"Violence as a culture" is getting to be included in everything that they can be exposed to. How many reality shows are there that are full of arguing and always feature some fist fight in the trailer, in the tease, in the finale, in the replay, in the recap, in the season finale "let's sit down and talk about how you all punched each other!" The famous people on the reality shows all get into physical fights and that is part of their fame. That's the "come at me brah" phenomenon. Watch reality TV and you know that all problems are solved by yelling and fighting.

Sports and music and movies all have violence as an answer. How many athletes and musicians are getting into fights. Chris Brown beats his girlfriend and gets a tattoo of her beaten face on his neck. Look kids, violence is cool and makes you cool. Of course the argument of violent lyrics and movies is as old as lyrics and movies.

Facebook, Twitter, 4chan, Youtube: violence everywhere. I'm not talking about violent TV shows or anything like that. I am talking about all the "cool" videos of groups of kids jumping each other, kicking the feth out of each other, leaving each other as bloody pulps, and putting it online for others to see how cool they are.

It's not any one thing, it's the balance of everything together that has people concerned about a "culture of violence".

It has a place in the discussion as well.


You're going to get slammed for such unPC statements.
I noticed this when watching Skyfall, that Bond films had turned into just constant killfests.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's no wonder the Chinese (and the UN) are licking their lips at the prospect of overtaking America.

I know right?

China Calls for ‘No Delay’ on Gun Controls in U.S.
http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/china-calls-for-no-delay-on-gun-controls-in-u-s/
HONG KONG — The state news agency in China, the official voice of the government, has called for the United States to quickly adopt stricter gun controls in the aftermath of the shooting rampage in Connecticut that left 28 people dead, including 20 schoolchildren.

According to the state medical examiner who was overseeing autopsies of the children, all of them had been hit multiple times. At least one child had been shot 11 times.

All of the children were in the first grade.

“Their blood and tears demand no delay for U.S. gun control,” said the news agency, Xinhua, which listed a series of shootings this year in the United States.

“However, this time, the public feels somewhat tired and helpless,” the commentary said. “The past six months have seen enough shooting rampages in the United States.”

China suffered its own school tragedy on Friday — a man stabbed 22 children at a village elementary school in Henan Province. An 85-year-old woman also was stabbed.

There were no fatalities, although Xinhua reported that some of the children had had their fingers and ears cut off. The attacker, a 36-year-old man, was reportedly in custody. There was no immediate explanation for his possible motives.

On Sunday, the Web site China Smack compiled a range of comments on Sina Weibo, the Twitter-like service in China. One said: “They should issue a bulletproof vest to every American elementary school student as their school uniform.”

Another comment related to President Obama fighting back tears while addressing the nation on Friday:

In the face of Henan children suffering harm, did our country’s leaders shed a tear!? Why is it that when this kind of incident happens, they always pretend to be deaf and mute!? I’m not saying that our leaders have to be like Obama shedding tears, but can we at least be like others in facing the incident? Instead of the mainstream media not even covering it, hiding it, attempting to avoid it every time the country has a “special incident.”
China experienced a spate of attacks on schoolchildren in 2010, with almost 20 deaths and more than 50 injuries. In the fourth of the assaults, a crazed man beat five toddlers with a hammer, then set himself on fire while holding two youngsters.

In another of those attacks in 2010, Zheng Minsheng, 42, stabbed and killed eight primary school students in Fujian Province. Five weeks later, after a quick trial, he was executed.

My colleague Michael Wines reported at the time: “Some news reports stated that Mr. Zheng had mental problems, but most state media said no such evidence existed. Mental illness remains a closeted topic in modern China, and neither medication nor modern psychiatric treatment is widely used.”

“Most of the attackers have been mentally disturbed men involved in personal disputes or unable to adjust to the rapid pace of social change in China,” The Associated Press reported Saturday, adding that the rampages pointed to “grave weaknesses in the antiquated Chinese medical system’s ability to diagnose and treat psychiatric illness.”

Private ownership of guns — whether pistols, rifles or shotguns — is almost unheard of in China. Handgun permits are sometimes (but rarely) given to people living in remote areas for protection against wild animals.

The Chinese school assaults were carried out with knives, kitchen cleavers or hammers, the usual weapons of choice in mass attacks in China. As a precaution before the recent Communist Party Congress in Beijing, the sale of knives was banned in the central area of the capital.

Dr. Ding Xueliang, a sociologist at the University of Science and Technology in Hong Kong, speaking about the Chinese tragedy on Friday, told CNN that “the huge difference between this case and the U.S. is not the suspect, nor the situation, but the simple fact he did not have an effective weapon.

“In terms of the U.S., there’s much easier availability of killing instruments — rifles, machine guns, explosives — than in nearly every other developed country.”

In a blog on the Web site of The New Yorker, the magazine’s China correspondent, Evan Osnos, wrote:

It takes a lot to make China’s government — beset, as it is, by corruption and opacity and the paralyzing effects of special interests — look good, by comparison, in the eyes of its people these days. But we’ve done it.

When Chinese viewers looked at the two attacks side by side, more than a few of them concluded, as one did that, “from the look of it, there’s no difference between a ‘developed’ country and a ‘developing’ country. And there’s no such thing as human rights. People are the most violent creatures on earth, and China, with its ban on guns, is doing pretty well!”
Japan, too, has a near-total ban on private gun ownership, and the infrequent mass attacks there — which included a tragic rampage at a primary school in 2001— typically have involved knives.

“Almost no one in Japan owns a gun,” said Max Fisher, writing in The Atlantic in July. “Most kinds are illegal, with onerous restrictions on buying and maintaining the few that are allowed. Even the country’s infamous, mafia-like Yakuza tend to forgo guns; the few exceptions tend to become big national news stories.”

In 2006, Japan had two gun-related homicides. “And when that number jumped to 22 in 2007,” Mr. Fisher said, “it became a national scandal.”

“East Asia, despite its universally restrictive domestic gun policies, hosts some of the world’s largest firearm exporters and emerging industry giants: China, South Korea and Japan,” according to GunPolicy.org, a comprehensive global database maintained by the Sydney School of Public Health at the University of Sydney.

In recent weeks, Chinese police officials in Jiangsu Province seized more than 6,000 illegal guns from two underground workshops and warehouses; a retired prison guard in Hong Kong was jailed for 18 months for keeping an arsenal of guns, silencers, grenades and thousands of rounds of ammunition in his public-housing apartment; and 17 suspected gun smugglers went on trial in Shanghai as part of a joint investigation with U.S. law enforcement officials.

In the Shanghai case, more than 100 semiautomatic handguns, rifles, shotguns and gun parts were express-mailed to China from the United States. One of the masterminds on the American end was Staff Sgt. Joseph Debose, 30, a soldier with a Special Forces National Guard unit in North Carolina. He pleaded guilty to federal charges in September.

“The defendant traded the honor of his position in the National Guard for the money he received for smuggling arms to China,” said Loretta E. Lynch, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of New York. “In blatant disregard for everything he was sworn to uphold, the defendant placed numerous firearms into a black market pipeline from the United States to China.”

What’s your view? Would the United States do well to emulate China and Japan, with their comprehensive bans on guns? Or is America a special case because of its Constitutional protections of gun ownership? And apropos of the Fujian attack described above, would you support similarly speedy trials and the death penalty for mass murderers of children?

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