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2012/12/21 05:07:07
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote: Michael Moore is an NRA member.
ha, ahHa. HAHA!
Oh look it's you. Maybe you should start a new thread for this it should be a doozey.
Michael Moore is as much a member of the NRA as my cat is a member of the Canine species just because I pay for a lifetime membership in the National Canine Assosiation.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/12/21 05:27:20
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
My opinion comes from fellow cops who laugh about their "training" as well as the former rangemaster of a major California city. How 'bout you brainiac?
The assumption that, until demonstrated otherwise, all shooters are essentially equal. And the well supported notion that the vast majority of shooters respond to stress in the same way, as regards accuracy; something which I imagine is only exacerbated by surprise caused by, for example, serving as a school principle.
So, basically, an induction from tangentially related statistics, and what is to my mind a fairly sound assumption. Plus, I'll add this now, a guess that the difference between the number of hours spent in traing (CHL) isn't significantly different from the number of hours spent training (non-CHL).
That particular study has been disproven for poor methodology and researcher bias so many times as to be laughable. You'll notice only one of the participants in the study has weapons experience (where most CHL holders have to have basic training above and beyond plinking at the range, many more actually go well beyond that) is doubled up on with a ringer in the class room. It's also clear the active shooter knows who the defensive shooter is upon entry. So yes if you throw a random yahoo with a gun, no training and no mental preparation/combat mindset what so ever into an active shooter environment they won't pull a John Wayne. Shocker.
While I agree that the methodology was poor, I'm not certain to what degree a combat mindset will necessarily prepare someone to be ambushed in an otherwise safe location such that they're likely to summarily end a rampage. This doesn't mean that I think CCW permits are useless, or that I intend to demonize them as many do, but I also think that a great many opponents to gun control overstate the effectiveness they would have in the prevention of tragedy.
Not that this should be surprising to anyone, as usual, with respect to American politics, I consider the right answer to be somewhere between all the sensationalism engaged in by active proponents.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/21 05:39:30
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/12/21 06:12:42
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote: Michael Moore is an NRA member.
ha, ahHa. HAHA!
Oh look it's you. Maybe you should start a new thread for this it should be a doozey.
Michael Moore is as much a member of the NRA as my cat is a member of the Canine species just because I pay for a lifetime membership in the National Canine Assosiation.
According to wikipedia he has a lifetime membership, though he joined with the intention of becoming its president, then dismantling it from the inside.
He gave up.
That particular study has been disproven for poor methodology and researcher bias so many times as to be laughable. You'll notice only one of the participants in the study has weapons experience (where most CHL holders have to have basic training above and beyond plinking at the range, many more actually go well beyond that) is doubled up on with a ringer in the class room. It's also clear the active shooter knows who the defensive shooter is upon entry. So yes if you throw a random yahoo with a gun, no training and no mental preparation/combat mindset what so ever into an active shooter environment they won't pull a John Wayne. Shocker.
While I agree that the methodology was poor, I'm not certain to what degree a combat mindset will necessarily prepare someone to be ambushed in an otherwise safe location such that they're likely to summarily end a rampage. This doesn't mean that I think CCW permits are useless, or that I intend to demonize them as many do, but I also think that a great many opponents to gun control overstate the effectiveness they would have in the prevention of tragedy.
Not that this should be surprising to anyone, as usual, with respect to American politics, I consider the right answer to be somewhere between all the sensationalism engaged in by active proponents.
If you have a combat mindset/proper mental state you shouldn't let your awareness drop to the white zone for anything other then sleep. You should have a plan for every situation in the basic sense. "Okay if someone came through that door, there's these options." that's the type of thing that increases your effectiveness. Because you've thought it through, the thinking's done, now it's reacting which shaves seconds in a situation where an extra second means getting ventilated. That's the type of thing I mean by mindset.
Knowing what you're doing would also significantly help those college kids getting shot up with SIM rounds in the study we're talking about.
There's been multiple situations where an active shooter has been engaged or stopped by a CCW holder. The Clackamas Mall Shooting is the most recent example though correlation isn't causation so we can't say for sure that being engaged by an armed individual is what caused the shooter to withdraw and suicide. Closer to home (literally five minutes up the road) an active shooter attacked New Life Church and was brought down by a female parishioner with her CCW. It has and does happen when the Active Shooter is in an area that permits CCW. As we've noted, a shooter choosing such a location that allows such is rare.
I'm also not saying or any one else will be hyper effective or the end all solution to active shooters. I am saying however that me, or any other carry holder on scene and armed is a better chance to end the active shooter's spree sooner rather then later. On a more personal note I also find it's a much higher likelihood for me walking out of the building instead of being pulled out in a body bag or on a gurney, and I'm in massive favor of that.
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote: Michael Moore is an NRA member.
ha, ahHa. HAHA! Oh look it's you. Maybe you should start a new thread for this it should be a doozey. Michael Moore is as much a member of the NRA as my cat is a member of the Canine species just because I pay for a lifetime membership in the National Canine Assosiation.
According to wikipedia he has a lifetime membership, though he joined with the intention of becoming its president, then dismantling it from the inside. He gave up.
I hope they sent him a camouflage tea cozy or something, we sure do appreciate the dues though! That does not however invalidate Auston's point.
Oh and finally:
Thanks Mr. President! Another salesman of the year award for 2012, cinching it in the critical fourth quarter! I'd say he's got a good shot at 2013, but there should be stiff competition from Dianne Feinstein
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 06:42:54
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
If you have a combat mindset/proper mental state you shouldn't let your awareness drop to the white zone for anything other then sleep. You should have a plan for every situation in the basic sense. "Okay if someone came through that door, there's these options." that's the type of thing that increases your effectiveness. Because you've thought it through, the thinking's done, now it's reacting which shaves seconds in a situation where an extra second means getting ventilated. That's the type of thing I mean by mindset.
But the vast majority or CCWs do not actually do that. Nor, I would argue do the vast majority of CCW ex-mils. The larger point being that, if you define 'combat mindset' as how someone would regard a situation as though they were in combat, you exclude most US citizens and most members of the military.
Most people do not have, as you describe, combat mindsets. And if they do, they are not exhibited outside of military situations.
There's been multiple situations where an active shooter has been engaged or stopped by a CCW holder. The Clackamas Mall Shooting is the most recent example though correlation isn't causation so we can't say for sure that being engaged by an armed individual is what caused the shooter to withdraw and suicide. Closer to home (literally five minutes up the road) an active shooter attacked New Life Church and was brought down by a female parishioner with her CCW. It has and does happen when the Active Shooter is in an area that permits CCW. As we've noted, a shooter choosing such a location that allows such is rare.
Edit= Wrong button.
But it has not been demonstrated that Gun-Free-Zones are targetted in exception to their rate of existence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 10:02:27
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/12/21 10:21:11
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
dogma wrote: But the vast majority or CCWs do not actually do that.
Are you certain?
Frankly, situational awareness and the Cooper scale have been taught in more than one civilian class I've attended. I can't talk about non-civilian, but what KM refers to as the combat mindset is not an uncommon or unimportant theme.
2012/12/21 10:26:04
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
I don't think I have ever heard about the Cooper scale, but I usually always try to have situational awareness. Looking across areas that I am getting ready to enter or cross, making sure I look all around me frequently, knowing alternate routes if the way I am going is no longer ideal.
Same with driving, although that is most likely due to my emergency driving courses. Scan all mirrors about every 10 seconds, know what is going on in all the lanes next to your car at all times, scanning the road ahead and being aware if traffic is slowing down or acting weird 1/4 or 1/2 mile ahead so you can start reacting to that now.
I also don't go into any public space without making sure I check and see where all the emergency exists are.
2012/12/21 10:33:34
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
dogma wrote: But the vast majority or CCWs do not actually do that.
Are you certain?
Frankly, situational awareness and the Cooper scale have been taught in more than one civilian class I've attended. I can't talk about non-civilian, but what KM refers to as the combat mindset is not an uncommon or unimportant theme.
No-one can be certain either way, since there isn't a licensing test for concealed pistol shooting carriers, to enable the data to be collected
However, common sense informs us that soldiers are trained for combat is because without the training they are less effective. Obviously ordinary people, without training, are less effective.
Proper training would also prevent most gun accidents.
I know it feels like you are doing something, but what good does it really do to stand there?
It made the kids and staff feel safer according to the article.
That's good, right?
Hey its why we have to strip down for the TSA. Because it makes us feel safer. Right?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 12:19:19
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
d-usa wrote: I don't think I have ever heard about the Cooper scale, but I usually always try to have situational awareness. Looking across areas that I am getting ready to enter or cross, making sure I look all around me frequently, knowing alternate routes if the way I am going is no longer ideal.
Same with driving, although that is most likely due to my emergency driving courses. Scan all mirrors about every 10 seconds, know what is going on in all the lanes next to your car at all times, scanning the road ahead and being aware if traffic is slowing down or acting weird 1/4 or 1/2 mile ahead so you can start reacting to that now.
I also don't go into any public space without making sure I check and see where all the emergency exists are.
After all the chcoclate and rum I've had this year, I've been trying to avoid scales.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 12:20:17
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Thanks Mr. President! Another salesman of the year award for 2012, cinching it in the critical fourth quarter! I'd say he's got a good shot at 2013, but there should be stiff competition from Dianne Feinstein
Obama has sure been good for the gun lobby. I might just vote Republican in 2012 just to stop the gun runs and to be able to buy some ammo again...
2012/12/21 12:24:35
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Thanks Mr. President! Another salesman of the year award for 2012, cinching it in the critical fourth quarter! I'd say he's got a good shot at 2013, but there should be stiff competition from Dianne Feinstein
Obama has sure been good for the gun lobby. I might just vote Republican in 2012 just to stop the gun runs and to be able to buy some ammo again...
Too late. After the ban you'll never have to spend money on guns and ammo again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 12:25:18
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 12:29:52
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
I didn't see an opt out option when I went through LaGuardia this month. Man thats a small airport.
All of them have the option, they are just very bad at putting up the legally required signs informing you of their rights.
At the few airports I went through last year they have a big line that feeds into several smaller lines that either have the metal detector or the VirtualStripSearchTM, I can usually manage to work my way to the traditional line. If I get the machine I always opt out.
They get snippy alot, but they always comply. Last time I flew out of OKC they tried to make me wait because nobody could pad me down right now even though they were all there. After having me stand to the side for about 5 minutes they asked me "are you sure you don't just want to go to the machine, it will be a lot faster". I just asked them in a nice friendly voice "are you intentionally delaying me so that I will change my mind and exercise my legal right to opt out?". Can you imagine that somebody was able to search me 30 seconds later .
2012/12/21 14:13:17
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
If you have a combat mindset/proper mental state you shouldn't let your awareness drop to the white zone for anything other then sleep. You should have a plan for every situation in the basic sense. "Okay if someone came through that door, there's these options." that's the type of thing that increases your effectiveness. Because you've thought it through, the thinking's done, now it's reacting which shaves seconds in a situation where an extra second means getting ventilated. That's the type of thing I mean by mindset.
Sounds like a delightful way to live your life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 14:14:24
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2015/05/21 14:52:49
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
If you have a combat mindset/proper mental state you shouldn't let your awareness drop to the white zone for anything other then sleep. You should have a plan for every situation in the basic sense. "Okay if someone came through that door, there's these options." that's the type of thing that increases your effectiveness. Because you've thought it through, the thinking's done, now it's reacting which shaves seconds in a situation where an extra second means getting ventilated. That's the type of thing I mean by mindset.
Sounds like a delightful way to live your life.
Secure and aware? I think so. Awareness and a proper mental state doesn't stop you from doing anything or enjoying a gellato or something. So don't make it out to be some hyper vigilant robot mode.
Here's a brief run down on the Cooper color code. Col. Jeff Cooper is my guru on self defense, so when I say combat mind set I'm mostly referring to his terminology.
The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[6]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person".
The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Condition Black: Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.
If you have a combat mindset/proper mental state you shouldn't let your awareness drop to the white zone for anything other then sleep. You should have a plan for every situation in the basic sense. "Okay if someone came through that door, there's these options." that's the type of thing that increases your effectiveness. Because you've thought it through, the thinking's done, now it's reacting which shaves seconds in a situation where an extra second means getting ventilated. That's the type of thing I mean by mindset.
Sounds like a delightful way to live your life.
Well haven't you ever watched a good horror movie, and right after getting into the shower thought - "well this wasn'ty the brightest idea"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 15:18:58
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
dogma wrote: But the vast majority or CCWs do not actually do that.
Are you certain?
Frankly, situational awareness and the Cooper scale have been taught in more than one civilian class I've attended. I can't talk about non-civilian, but what KM refers to as the combat mindset is not an uncommon or unimportant theme.
No-one can be certain either way, since there isn't a licensing test for concealed pistol shooting carriers, to enable the data to be collected
However, common sense informs us that soldiers are trained for combat is because without the training they are less effective. Obviously ordinary people, without training, are less effective.
Proper training would also prevent most gun accidents.
There isn't a test as far as I know, but non-military and non-police people in Ohio have to take a training course to get a concealed carry license. Many other states have similar requirements, so this idea that people with concealed carry permits have no training is false. They might not have extensive training, but there are training requirements they have to meet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 15:28:48
In Texas there is definitely a CHL test. There is a written test and a shooting test. The Wife made a perfect score on the written test and near perfect on the shooting test. (and then hit a curb with the van after grrr...)
The test is not difficult though if you have a brain and weren't completely asleep during the class.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 15:32:04
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 15:32:51
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Presumably there is a test, else there would be no way of knowing that the person had understood the training. Unless it is just a box-ticking exercise.
My suggestion is that appropriate training leading to a licence should be required for all guns.
Kilkrazy wrote: Presumably there is a test, else there would be no way of knowing that the person had understood the training. Unless it is just a box-ticking exercise.
My suggestion is that appropriate training leading to a licence should be required for all guns.
Define appropriate training.
Define who gets to define appropriate training. It sounds stupid but it matters.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 15:37:21
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Kilkrazy wrote: Presumably there is a test, else there would be no way of knowing that the person had understood the training. Unless it is just a box-ticking exercise.
My suggestion is that appropriate training leading to a licence should be required for all guns.
I just checked, there is a test as part of the course in Ohio, which is good.
But if you're presuming there was a test, why were you saying there wasn't a test?
I know it feels like you are doing something, but what good does it really do to stand there?
It made the kids and staff feel safer according to the article.
That's good, right?
Hey its why we have to strip down for the TSA. Because it makes us feel safer. Right?
A volunteer guy standing around outside a school not bothering anyone is the same as the TSA making you strip down?
Do you read these things before you post them?
What is "reading?" Is that like that other make believe word "snow?"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/12/21 15:46:30
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Kilkrazy wrote: Presumably there is a test, else there would be no way of knowing that the person had understood the training. Unless it is just a box-ticking exercise.
My suggestion is that appropriate training leading to a licence should be required for all guns.
I just checked, there is a test as part of the course in Ohio, which is good.
But if you're presuming there was a test, why were you saying there wasn't a test?
Hordini is from Ohio? O.o
also: Glad to know there's a test for my concealed carry I should study.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2012/12/21 15:49:02
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
That does not however invalidate Auston's point. 
.
I should study.
