Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]

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**Seaward**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The next thing is that someone at the ISP will publish the home contact info of the blogger.

If some gun owners go around to the map publisher's house, isn't there a risk of violence?

It's almost like people shouldn't publish private data in collected form, whether it's public domain or not, in order to push a political agenda, huh?

**Kilkrazy**

It would be tragically ironic if an angry gun owner got shot by a householder under "Castle" and "Stand Your Ground" laws.

Going back to the map, I am interested by the large number of permit holders in upstate NY compared to the small number in the Manhattan and Long Island areas.

Presumably it is partly correlated to population density. I thought Manhattan was pretty built up, though.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Seaward wrote:
Well, Feinstein's proposal has been revealed.

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:

Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
120 specifically-named firearms
Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans
Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
Background check of owner and any transferee;
Type and serial number of the firearm;
Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

If this goes through, every firearm I own except my 1911 becomes an NFA gun.

The threat of NFA registration is enough to make me look into selling my AK simply because I don't bloody want to deal with it.

**Seaward**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It would be tragically ironic if an angry gun owner got shot by a householder under "Castle" and "Stand Your Ground" laws.

Going back to the map, I am interested by the large number of permit holders in upstate NY compared to the small number in the Manhattan and Long Island areas.

Presumably it is partly correlated to population density. I thought Manhattan was pretty built up, though.

I'd say it's probably more to do with the fact that Manhattan is willing to issue a lot fewer permits than upstate NY. Permits are handled by the county, not the state, government.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The threat of NFA registration is enough to make me look into selling my AK simply because I don't bloody want to deal with it.

Considering the registration time will be measured in years...yeah.

I suspect my stuff will just get stolen.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It would be tragically ironic if an angry gun owner got shot by a householder under "Castle" and "Stand Your Ground" laws.

Going back to the map, I am interested by the large number of permit holders in upstate NY compared to the small number in the Manhattan and Long Island areas.

Presumably it is partly correlated to population density. I thought Manhattan was pretty built up, though.

Edit: Ninja'd

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The threat of NFA registration is enough to make me look into selling my AK simply because I don't bloody want to deal with it.

Considering the registration time will be measured in years...yeah.

I suspect my stuff will just get stolen.

My Garand still isn't on any lists, so I can't complain I suppose. Nor is the scout rifle I intend to build next year.

Not terribly worried though, this bill's more then likely DOA.

**BaronIveagh**

Kilkrazy wrote:

Going back to the map, I am interested by the large number of permit holders in upstate NY compared to the small number in the Manhattan and Long Island areas.

My guess would be police response times. The longer you have to wait for a cop, the more likely they are to want a gun of their own, just in case.

**Seaward**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

My Garand still isn't on any lists, so I can't complain I suppose. Nor is the scout rifle I intend to build next year.

Not terribly worried though, this bill's more then likely DOA.

We can only hope. I threw some cash at the NRA-ILA and dashed off a couple letters to Senator Warner and my congressman.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Seaward wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:

My Garand still isn't on any lists, so I can't complain I suppose. Nor is the scout rifle I intend to build next year.

Not terribly worried though, this bill's more then likely DOA.

We can only hope. I threw some cash at the NRA-ILA and dashed off a couple letters to Senator Warner and my congressman.

I'd say put an order in to the CMP for a Garand now if you can XD

**Seaward**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'd say put an order in to the CMP for a Garand now if you can XD

A Garand is way down on my list, much as I'd like to own one. Right now, I'm just trying to find someplace that still has 15-round P30 mags. And I wouldn't say no to a Colt 6920, though I don't really need it.

**BaronIveagh**

Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

**Seaward**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

**Mattman154**

Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

"Will you put the knife away I'm trying to dial the police!"

**A Town Called Malus**

Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

**Seaward**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

Because I don't believe there's a country on earth that has the spare cash to ensure there's an armed responder no less than twenty seconds away from every citizen in the nation at any given time.

**Alfndrate**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

Because travel time is still a thing.

**Hordini**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

You realize some people live in rural areas where police are easily half an hour away or more, right? Out west, there are places where police might be an hour or more away.

Not everybody lives in the city, and no amount of increased funding, more cars, or more helicopters is going to shorten police response times enough to do anything other than allow them to show up and take a report after an incident is already over in a lot of areas of the country.

**A Town Called Malus**

Hordini wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

You realize some people live in rural areas where police are easily half an hour away or more, right? Out west, there are places where police might be an hour or more away.

Not everybody lives in the city, and no amount of increased funding, more cars, or more helicopters is going to shorten police response times enough to do anything other than allow them to show up and take a report after an incident is already over in a lot of areas of the country.

And what is the rate of violent crime in these rural areas? The communities must be quite small otherwise I assume they'd at least have a town sheriff (or whatever it's called) or something along those lines?

**Hordini**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Hordini wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Seaward wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit to come out: apparently police response time between the 911 call and cops arrival on the scene was... less than spectacular. 20 min from 911 to arrival bad.

As the mustache-twirling psychopaths who own guns for personal protection have been saying for years: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Calling the police in most serious self-defense scenarios basically amounts to giving the authorities a general idea of where to find your body.

So why not campaign for law enforcement to receive more funding, allowing for more officers on the street, more cars, helicopters etc.?

You realize some people live in rural areas where police are easily half an hour away or more, right? Out west, there are places where police might be an hour or more away.

Not everybody lives in the city, and no amount of increased funding, more cars, or more helicopters is going to shorten police response times enough to do anything other than allow them to show up and take a report after an incident is already over in a lot of areas of the country.

And what is the rate of violent crime in these rural areas? The communities must be quite small otherwise I assume they'd at least have a town sheriff (or whatever it's called) or something along those lines?

Crime in rural areas is lower than in cities, but that doesn't make it nonexistent. There is also law enforcement (generally county law enforcement, usually the sheriff's office/department), but that doesn't mean they can get to you quickly and they have a large area to cover. It takes time to drive places. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that.

**Alfndrate**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
And what is the rate of violent crime in these rural areas? The communities must be quite small otherwise I assume they'd at least have a town sheriff (or whatever it's called) or something along those lines?

I'll use a decent rural area in Ohio known as Ashland, very rural, lots of farmland, and plenty of Amish (who generally don't report crimes anyways), and compare it to the next city over, Mansfield Ohio. These numbers are based on per 100,000 people

Murder: Ashland:4.6 Mansfield: 5.9 National Avg: 7
Forcible Rape: Ashland: 50.98 Mansfield: 94.72 National Avg: 32.2
Robbery: Ashland: 27.8 Mansfield: 199.3 National Avg: 205.8
Aggravated Assault: Ashland: 13.9 Mansfield: 136.2 National Avg: 336.5
Burglary: Ashland: 380.1 Mansfield: 1866.7 National Avg: 813.2
Larceny Theft: Ashland: 2405.5 Ashland: 4597.7 National Avg: 2601.7
Vehicle Theft: Ashland: 51 Mansfield: 159.8 National Avg: 501.5

As you can see Ashland has lower crime statistics that Mansfield which is a gakhole to be honest, but forcible rapes are well above the national average, murders and larceny thefts are near the national average. And this is a city that has a local police force AND is the county seat so it has a Sheriff's Department (not to mention the fething Highway Patrol).

Still looking for avg response time, but as someone that lived there for 5 years, it's not very quick...

**BaronIveagh**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

And what is the rate of violent crime in these rural areas? The communities must be quite small otherwise I assume they'd at least have a town sheriff (or whatever it's called) or something along those lines?

Well, again, six armed robberies on this road in the last month. Criminal gangs out here know the cops are a long way off. My own area is dependent on the State Police, having no Sheriff below the county level and no local police at all.

Some of them are quite well equipped with firepower of their own. One of my neighbors depended on attack dogs and a security alarm to protect his house. When he got home, he found all seven dead, and his front door blown open.

**KalashnikovMarine**

It's also worth noting that Police Officers of any kind have no legal duty to protect you whatsoever.

**AustonT**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It's also worth noting that Police Officers of any kind have no legal duty to protect you whatsoever.

That can't be wholly true.

**Seaward**

AustonT wrote:
That can't be wholly true.

It actually is, from what I recall reading of the case. Supreme Court decision.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:
AustonT wrote:
That can't be wholly true.

It actually is, from what I recall reading of the case. Supreme Court decision.

Nope, I'm wrong, I don't think it's ever gone to SCOTUS. Warren vs. District of Columbia is the big one, though.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Right never went to SCOTUS but the case law is well established. If I'm a LEO I have absolutely no duty to protect you or risk my neck for yours.

The duty of a cop is not to protect you but to investigate crimes and capture criminals.

**BaronIveagh**

As the state trooper said when they finally did show up, they sit back,wait for the noise to stop, and then fingerprint the bodies.

**whembly**

AustonT wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It's also worth noting that Police Officers of any kind have no legal duty to protect you whatsoever.

That can't be wholly true.

I think you're referring to a CO case...

EDIT: yup... Supreme Court case:http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13096571268307866226&q=gonzales+v.+castle+rock&hl=en&as_sdt=2,47

The Supreme Court held in that case that even if the woman could establish that the police failed to enforce the TRO, that they were under no obligation to enforce it and thus she couldn’t sue them.

TBH... I think it's a wrong decision... but, what do I know...

**Seaward**

whembly wrote:
I think you're referring to a CO case...

It's a lot of cases. I found seven from across the country when I did a very cursory search. The police do not have a duty to actually protect you from anything.

**whembly**

Seaward wrote:
whembly wrote:
I think you're referring to a CO case...

It's a lot of cases. I found seven from across the country when I did a very cursory search. The police do not have a duty to actually protect you from anything.

Yup... just reinforcing your statement that LEO aren't liable to "protect" you. They certainly have a code/creed to provide protection as best as they can...

**KalashnikovMarine**

Between the case law and the average response time in most of the country I think it's safe to say you can't rely on the police for your protection.

**SOFDC**

Going back to the map, I am interested by the large number of permit holders in upstate NY compared to the small number in the Manhattan and Long Island areas.

That's what happens in a may-issue state. Some areas are more lenient than others. One county office may not issue to anyone that isn't politically connected, one may be almost shall-issue.

Same thing in California. If you can get in through all the backlog, you will be looking at an almost shall-issue situation in Sacramento county.....but good luck in any of the bay area counties unless you are:

A: A politician (They're better than us peasants)
B: A Badge-holder (They're also better than us peasants)
C: A contributor to someone`s re-election fund. (They're useful, and also better than us peasants.)

May it crack off into the ocean after I leave.