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*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
Ok so I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the new update for the WoC my thoughts (competitive-wise) are in this video I made:
So what are your thoughts? do you like them or do you think there just there to Irritate opponents at tournaments? Would like to hear people perspective on these units...
Cheers to all replies .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/15 18:09:52
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Khorne doesn't hate magic weapons. He actually likes using them. He just doesn't like magic. Big difference there.
You really should look at these guys like Chaos Knights that got their horses swapped for Juggers.
What do they gain over Chaos Knights with MoK?
MR(1): Lets be honest, MR is pretty lame. I wouldn't charge points for it.
They lose a mount with 2 Str4 attacks and gain a mount with 3 Str5 attacks: This is pretty good.
2 wounds: Ok, they gain a wound. Only 1 though, unlike all other MC which are all at a solid 3 wounds each.
T5: They gain a toughness point. This is pretty good I'll give you that. Remember that with the new FAQ, MC use the higher toughness avaliable when the enemy is attacking it.
Things they seem to gain when really they gain nothing,
Brass Behemoth: Chaos Knights have a 1+ armor save. Chaos Armor(4+)+Shield+Barded steed. Skullcrushers have Chaos Armor, Shield, and Brass Behemoth. Which would give them a 0+ save, but the rules max out at 1+. So in reality the Jugger doesn't give them anything over a barded steed in that regard.
Ensorceled Weapons: Chaos Knights have these standard, as well as the stupid lance option which makes them worse. No gain in this department. Lances are still lame on both them and the Chaos Knight entry.
Overall, I would say they are slightly undercosted but not be too much. Maybe 5 points.
Having only 2 wounds really hurts them.
BTW: Will of Chaos is one of the universal Chaos rules. Its on the page with the EotG chart.
It doesn't seem like you are all that familiar with the Chaos army book, so your opinion on this update seems rather dubious at best.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/15 18:56:33
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
Grey Templar wrote: Khorne doesn't hate magic weapons. He actually likes using them. He just doesn't like magic. Big difference there.
You really should look at these guys like Chaos Knights that got their horses swapped for Juggers.
What do they gain over Chaos Knights with MoK?
MR(1): Lets be honest, MR is pretty lame. I wouldn't charge points for it.
They lose a mount with 2 Str4 attacks and gain a mount with 3 Str5 attacks: This is pretty good.
2 wounds: Ok, they gain a wound. Only 1 though, unlike all other MC which are all at a solid 3 wounds each.
T5: They gain a toughness point. This is pretty good I'll give you that. Remember that with the new FAQ, MC use the higher toughness avaliable when the enemy is attacking it.
Things they seem to gain when really they gain nothing,
Brass Behemoth: Chaos Knights have a 1+ armor save. Chaos Armor(4+)+Shield+Barded steed. Skullcrushers have Chaos Armor, Shield, and Brass Behemoth. Which would give them a 0+ save, but the rules max out at 1+. So in reality the Jugger doesn't give them anything over a barded steed in that regard.
Ensorceled Weapons: Chaos Knights have these standard, as well as the stupid lance option which makes them worse. No gain in this department. Lances are still lame on both them and the Chaos Knight entry.
Overall, I would say they are slightly undercosted but not be too much. Maybe 5 points.
Having only 2 wounds really hurts them.
BTW: Will of Chaos is one of the universal Chaos rules. Its on the page with the EotG chart.
It doesn't seem like you are all that familiar with the Chaos army book, so your opinion on this update seems rather dubious at best.
Yes I Dont have much knowledge against WoC as I have never fought them and I have not seen the book in detail, I have only faced Tomb Kings, Ogres, Empire, and Dark Elves.
However:
A) 1+ Sv? so lets be honest here fantasy is a game where you have to come with many Hordes (Unless you play against a highly costed army) and the most common Str for these Hordes are Str 3, so if I get into combat into this unit If he charged me I would have no effect on him whatsoever.
B) Enscrolled weapons? So they can harm my ethriels? which is what a lot of the VC book is based around...
C) 2 Wounds? Ok I can understand that but only when you face off with ranged fire power... VC Dont have that either so to that point I would be needing a shed load of Magic or more specificity wind of death... Which I have to roll for...
I will admit they are a treasure... But only when you are using them, on the receiving end of these MC its a chore to play against unless you have ranged fire power...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/15 19:46:24
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Just be glad Strength modifies save at all.
You seem to be complaining because this unit counters your specific build. Well, thats what Bloodcrushers do.
Do you complain that mournfangs are also a hard counter for your hordes of zombies? Because thats what that unit does.
You can't really complain a unit is good at something its supposed to be good at.
Hit those Skullcrushers with something that ignores armor saves, or make them take saves.
Ghouls have poison which doesn't care about toughness. Every 12 wounds you cause will leave a dead Skullcrusher.
Try Banshee or Terrorghiest screams.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/15 20:47:17
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
You seem to be complaining because this unit counters your specific build. Well, thats what Bloodcrushers do.
Do you complain that mournfangs are also a hard counter for your hordes of zombies? Because thats what that unit does.
You can't really complain a unit is good at something its supposed to be good at.
Hit those Skullcrushers with something that ignores armor saves, or make them take saves.
Ghouls have poison which doesn't care about toughness. Every 12 wounds you cause will leave a dead Skullcrusher.
Try Banshee or Terrorghiest screams.
Yes but considering there is nothing I can do that can take the crushers out, there is the problem, yes I will be trying banshees out later when I can afford the model, and yes I will be getting myself a Terrorghiest but considering that the only units which can have an effect whilst both have to be in close and then one of the two will be getting charged because of charge range distance then mauled apart, the problem for me is, well there is no hard counter for these guys in terms of VC and while there are counters I will be needing to direct a large portion of points towards this unit instead of it needed to be placed in other areas...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/15 21:45:42
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Use the new Undead FAQ to your advantage. Toss zombie roadblocks in their path. They can't overrun after annhilating them which will buy you time.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
happygolucky wrote: Yes but considering there is nothing I can do that can take the crushers out
Yes, there is. Force armour saves.
You seem to be of the opinion that a 1+ save is an auto pass unless you can modify it to 2+. A roll of 1 always fails armour saves, so a 1+ armour save is effectively a 2+ armour save. The difference being that you need a -2 modifier to get their save to 3+.
So yes, your hordes can do something - force armour saves. He'll fail some eventually, and with VC, you have the ability to make him take some eventually by locking him in combat with regenerating units.
Another option is to ignore them. Use raised zombie units and chaff units like Dire Wolves to force him to either spend time moving around them or waste time fighting them. Remember, if he hits a small unit of zombies and wipes them out due to crumble, he can't overrun. Use that by knowing how many he can statistically kill in a turn, and put more zombies than that in front of them.
happygolucky wrote: Yes but considering there is nothing I can do that can take the crushers out
Yes, there is. Force armour saves.
You seem to be of the opinion that a 1+ save is an auto pass unless you can modify it to 2+. A roll of 1 always fails armour saves, so a 1+ armour save is effectively a 2+ armour save. The difference being that you need a -2 modifier to get their save to 3+.
So yes, your hordes can do something - force armour saves. He'll fail some eventually, and with VC, you have the ability to make him take some eventually by locking him in combat with regenerating units.
Another option is to ignore them. Use raised zombie units and chaff units like Dire Wolves to force him to either spend time moving around them or waste time fighting them. Remember, if he hits a small unit of zombies and wipes them out due to crumble, he can't overrun. Use that by knowing how many he can statistically kill in a turn, and put more zombies than that in front of them.
happygolucky wrote: Yes but considering there is nothing I can do that can take the crushers out
Yes, there is. Force armour saves.
You seem to be of the opinion that a 1+ save is an auto pass unless you can modify it to 2+. A roll of 1 always fails armour saves, so a 1+ armour save is effectively a 2+ armour save. The difference being that you need a -2 modifier to get their save to 3+.
So yes, your hordes can do something - force armour saves. He'll fail some eventually, and with VC, you have the ability to make him take some eventually by locking him in combat with regenerating units.
Another option is to ignore them. Use raised zombie units and chaff units like Dire Wolves to force him to either spend time moving around them or waste time fighting them. Remember, if he hits a small unit of zombies and wipes them out due to crumble, he can't overrun. Use that by knowing how many he can statistically kill in a turn, and put more zombies than that in front of them.
I was not aware of this. Fair enough.
Since you've been playing it this way, and your WoC playing opponent has let it slide (either out of malice or ignorance), if you pull this rule on him and he gets snippy about it, direct him to page 43, paragraph 3.
happygolucky wrote: Yes but considering there is nothing I can do that can take the crushers out
Yes, there is. Force armour saves.
You seem to be of the opinion that a 1+ save is an auto pass unless you can modify it to 2+. A roll of 1 always fails armour saves, so a 1+ armour save is effectively a 2+ armour save. The difference being that you need a -2 modifier to get their save to 3+.
So yes, your hordes can do something - force armour saves. He'll fail some eventually, and with VC, you have the ability to make him take some eventually by locking him in combat with regenerating units.
Another option is to ignore them. Use raised zombie units and chaff units like Dire Wolves to force him to either spend time moving around them or waste time fighting them. Remember, if he hits a small unit of zombies and wipes them out due to crumble, he can't overrun. Use that by knowing how many he can statistically kill in a turn, and put more zombies than that in front of them.
I was not aware of this. Fair enough.
Since you've been playing it this way, and your WoC playing opponent has let it slide (either out of malice or ignorance), if you pull this rule on him and he gets snippy about it, direct him to page 43, paragraph 3.
He's already mentioned that he hasn't played any WoC players yet.
.
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
