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Subject: The nurgle malediction that has a d3 of random effect.

Effect:
- 1 attack and shrouding
-1 strength and may not run
-1 strength and toughness


Do the above power if cast on a unit only affect the models profile or will it affect shooting attacks as well for the negative modifiers to strength. I can find no rule to go one way or another so RAW leads me to believe the unit can have -1 strength to everything they do... thoughts?

Can the aegis quadgun be targeted with this power? Will decreasing its strength remove the model from play? Will it shoot at S6 or S7? While I am at it can the aegis be fired as overwatch from the unit next to it being charged?


Subject: Helldrake

Question: Can the dam thing shoot backwards basically 12" from its mouth and hit models behind it? Does the helldrake torrent come from the model or the beginning of the template for LoS and Wound allocation purposes?



I have a couple of questions above that were asked today. Any responses I ask you cite pages so I can catch up on whats right as well.

 Tomb King wrote:
Subject: The nurgle malediction that has a d3 of random effect.

Effect:
- 1 attack and shrouding
-1 strength and may not run
-1 strength and toughness


Do the above power if cast on a unit only affect the models profile or will it affect shooting attacks as well for the negative modifiers to strength. I can find no rule to go one way or another so RAW leads me to believe the unit can have -1 strength to everything they do... thoughts?

Can the aegis quadgun be targeted with this power? Will decreasing its strength remove the model from play? Will it shoot at S6 or S7? While I am at it can the aegis be fired as overwatch from the unit next to it being charged?


Subject: Helldrake

Question: Can the dam thing shoot backwards basically 12" from its mouth and hit models behind it? Does the helldrake torrent come from the model or the beginning of the template for LoS and Wound allocation purposes?



I have a couple of questions above that were asked today. Any responses I ask you cite pages so I can catch up on whats right as well.

It's to the stat line IIRC I can doublecheck but I'm pretty sure it's a stat modifier.

The hell Turkey can fire that thing behind it, sure.
It just can't wound diddly. In order to wound it has to be within it's Arc IIRC.

You could probably make a strict RAW argument for it affecting the weapon's strength, but I think most players would take the -1 Strength as referring to the model, not their weapon.

I don't think there is a strong argument to apply it to anything 'but' the models' strength statistic as i do not believe it is listed as effecting a models' wargear.

In order to reduce the units' ranged weapons' strength in addition to the target unit itself, wouldn't it have to explicitly state it effects such in it's rules-text? (like 'weapon virus' does on the same page:
"...targets a single enemy unit within 24. AII of the target unit's ranged weapons...")

 Neorealist wrote:
I don't think there is a strong argument to apply it to anything 'but' the models' strength statistic as i do not believe it is listed as effecting a models' wargear.

In order to reduce the units' ranged weapons' strength in addition to the target unit itself, wouldn't it have to explicitly state it effects such in it's rules-text? (like 'weapon virus' does on the same page:
"...targets a single enemy unit within 24. AII of the target unit's ranged weapons...")

It states the unit is affected. So wouldnt everything the unit does be affected as well?

For example: All attacks from followers of nurgle ignore armor saves. (this was faq'd to say both shooting and CC attacks) Which regardless of the weapon type or how it worked it ignored armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Subject: The nurgle malediction that has a d3 of random effect.

Effect:
- 1 attack and shrouding
-1 strength and may not run
-1 strength and toughness


Do the above power if cast on a unit only affect the models profile or will it affect shooting attacks as well for the negative modifiers to strength. I can find no rule to go one way or another so RAW leads me to believe the unit can have -1 strength to everything they do... thoughts?

Can the aegis quadgun be targeted with this power? Will decreasing its strength remove the model from play? Will it shoot at S6 or S7? While I am at it can the aegis be fired as overwatch from the unit next to it being charged?


Subject: Helldrake

Question: Can the dam thing shoot backwards basically 12" from its mouth and hit models behind it? Does the helldrake torrent come from the model or the beginning of the template for LoS and Wound allocation purposes?



I have a couple of questions above that were asked today. Any responses I ask you cite pages so I can catch up on whats right as well.

It's to the stat line IIRC I can doublecheck but I'm pretty sure it's a stat modifier.

The hell Turkey can fire that thing behind it, sure.
It just can't wound diddly. In order to wound it has to be within it's Arc IIRC.

Technically the helldrake can shoot behind it as I see it which sounds silly but, the issue is LOS. I am not sure what the line of sight for the helldrake is drawn from.

Like all vehicles, LoS is drawn along the barrel of the firing weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
Like all vehicles, LoS is drawn along the barrel of the firing weapon.

Yep, this.

rigeld2 wrote:Like all vehicles, LoS is drawn along the barrel of the firing weapon.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Like all vehicles, LoS is drawn along the barrel of the firing weapon.

Yep, this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/425964-.html

Its not a normal firing weapon its a maw. lol

So it's a "mouth" weapon? It's not the first in the game. Just make a 45 deg cone centered at the center of the mouth and bam.

Yep, 45 degrees from the mouth. Not tricky in this case. Also, this is about the 13th thread on this subject...

Tomb King wrote: It states the unit is affected. So wouldnt everything the unit does be affected as well?

For example: All attacks from followers of nurgle ignore armor saves. (this was faq'd to say both shooting and CC attacks) Which regardless of the weapon type or how it worked it ignored armor.

I believe the answer to this is 'no'. Simply put, it does not specifically say it effects the units' weapons in addition to the unit itself (for an example of this, look at the rules-text for 'Weapon Virus' which i posted above), and there is no FAQ entry to the contrary like there is with the Tally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, 45 degrees from the mouth. Not tricky in this case. Also, this is about the 13th thread on this subject...

This is not that hard. Generally, I just double check what my opponent will agree to is its firing arc. I normally suggest using the wings as the firing arc (i.e. I extend lines straight out from the wings) so it is very clear where it can and cannot shoot. I have yet to have anyone disagree with this.

 Green is Best! wrote:
This is not that hard. Generally, I just double check what my opponent will agree to is its firing arc. I normally suggest using the wings as the firing arc (i.e. I extend lines straight out from the wings) so it is very clear where it can and cannot shoot. I have yet to have anyone disagree with this.

Except the rulebook does disagree with you. As stated, the rules only allow the 45 degree arc of fire.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
This is not that hard. Generally, I just double check what my opponent will agree to is its firing arc. I normally suggest using the wings as the firing arc (i.e. I extend lines straight out from the wings) so it is very clear where it can and cannot shoot. I have yet to have anyone disagree with this.

Except the rulebook does disagree with you. As stated, the rules only allow the 45 degree arc of fire.

This is accurate to a point. There is an old thread discussing the issue you might take a look at. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483142.page

Basically, a Heldrake can hit anything it wants to, as long as the narrow end originates within 12" of the weapon's 45 degree firing arc. The problem comes with the question of whether or not they can allocate wounds to models which are found to be outside the 45 degree arc. Some think yes, some think no. This is because of the Out of Sight rule on Pg 16 which dictates that shooting attacks may never allocate wounds to models which are out of sight and the supposition that a vehicle model can only ever draw line of sight from its gun barrels.

Then you get into things like how are you allowed to allocate wounds from a vector strike at models behind you and out of LOS or do vehicle models have an implied LOS blah blah blah.. If you are worried about it, discuss it with your opponent or TO before the game. Personally, I never shoot at anything behind my Heldrake - but if it can see you with its eyes, fair game.

It isnt supposition - there are no rules for drawing vehicle LOS outside of the allowance to do so from the weapon mount, limited by the fire arc.
It has a 45 degree arc of sight, and that is what it can kill.

The bolters are not affected... Reading way too much into the rule.

I brought up the line of sight issue but the FLGS states that torrent rule supersedes it and just says just within 12" of the mouth. In addition, it isnt a hull gun which is what the 45 arc of sight is mentioning.

 Tomb King wrote:
I brought up the line of sight issue but the FLGS states that torrent rule supersedes it and just says just within 12" of the mouth. In addition, it isnt a hull gun which is what the 45 arc of sight is mentioning.

The torrent rule allows placing the template and overrides the normal template rules.
Nothing in the torrent rule overrides page 16.

It's not about being a "hull mount" - you don't assign arcs based on hull vs sponson vs turret mount, rather you assign arc based on how far the design of the model lets it move. The design of the Heldrake doesn't allow the weapon to traverse at all, which means (according to the rule book) it has a 45 degree arc - 22.5 degrees in every direction.

 Tomb King wrote:
I brought up the line of sight issue but the FLGS states that torrent rule supersedes it and just says just within 12" of the mouth. In addition, it isnt a hull gun which is what the 45 arc of sight is mentioning.

How is it superseding a rule that has nothing to do with allocation of wounds to models out of LOS? PLacing a template is not the same thing. In short, theyre wrong and are playing 5th edition

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
I brought up the line of sight issue but the FLGS states that torrent rule supersedes it and just says just within 12" of the mouth. In addition, it isnt a hull gun which is what the 45 arc of sight is mentioning.

How is it superseding a rule that has nothing to do with allocation of wounds to models out of LOS? PLacing a template is not the same thing. In short, theyre wrong and are playing 5th edition

I already know this! I know he is wrong but besides my best efforts I have been unable to convince him that he is wrong. I am trying to prepare better for the next attempt to fix it. Can someone reference the different sections that support the right answer?

Page 16 - Out of Sight.
Page 43 - Torrent - "The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon."
Page 62 - Template Weapon.

There's nothing on page 62 that conflicts with the Out of Sight rule. Nothing in the Torrent rule that changes that fact.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 16 - Out of Sight.
Page 43 - Torrent - "The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon."
Page 62 - Template Weapon.

There's nothing on page 62 that conflicts with the Out of Sight rule. Nothing in the Torrent rule that changes that fact.

Have also heard the eyes can see and the head can swivel to fix line of sight.

 Tomb King wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 16 - Out of Sight.
Page 43 - Torrent - "The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon."
Page 62 - Template Weapon.

There's nothing on page 62 that conflicts with the Out of Sight rule. Nothing in the Torrent rule that changes that fact.

Have also heard the eyes can see and the head can swivel to fix line of sight.

Page 72, Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight