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 Omegus wrote:
Lorgar also struggled against the Communion of World Eater psykers.

Lol.

What?

It was actually quite sad. The World Eaters' psykers got a bum deal. They are hated by their own Legion, left out of all the reindeer games, and then are eaten by their own Primarch despite saving his life half a dozen times.

Lol.

What?

Yup all the world eaters psykers combine to help Angron survive up until Lorgar just about overpowers them and has his brother eat them all to become a daemon prince

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


I suppose Magnus could open up the earth under Angron and have the big dumbass tumble in (something Russ wouldn't fall for, no pun intended).

You took words out of my mouth....


This is similar is what Russ did in a way...Also Angon has a chance against his smarter brothers only in arena...same thing about Angel boy : duel- Angron would raped him, on the battlefield KFC wins


My opinion is that if Magnus can burn stuff with his mind, he can easily melt his nails...And also what Magnus said about Angron
shows his new feat....
also add ultra dumb (for reasons above)

But let's put aside Russ vs Angron topic, and tell me @Omegus what do you really think about the book?

It left me a bit conflicted.

It tries way too hard to make Angron sympathetic, and Lorgar's manipulation of him "you deserve answers as to why the Emperor didn't save your boys but just teleported you alone into space!" was a bit hamfisted. Angron torturing Orfeo also didn't make a lick of sense.

I also now struggle to make sense of Lorgar's motivation. Initially after his enlightenment he spouts stuff about how the Gods want what is best for us, to co-exist in perfect union, blah blah blah, yet in this book he seems aware that the Gods are fickle and spiteful beings, that only desire pain and suffering, who work against each other as often as not, and may not even really be sentient as we understand it.

It seems he is convinced that Chaos will swallow up reality Eldar-style regardless, so we may as well embrace the truth of our reality and do what we can to please the Gods. Seems like an easy choice to make when you're already a Primarch and have daemons blowing smoke up your ass about being the Chosen of Chaos, but for the rest of humanity all it offers is madness and death.

Overall, though, it was a good read.

Honestly of all the Primarchs, I think Angron can be made out to be the most sympathetic. Being the only Primarch who refused to leave his adopted world but being forced into this life as more or less the Emperor's slave.

There's always choice, and Angron chose to mutilate his sons (after killing a bunch of them), and then to massacre whole worlds. He refused to leave his fellow rebels behind, not his world. Seeing as the same house was still in charge a century later, I guess they capitulated to the Imperium and thus the Emperor saw no reason to purge them. After taking command, Angron could have come back to the planet and replaced the leadership and abolish the practice of the Butcher's Nails (Lorgar is shocked that Angron knew where the planet was all along, and never came back to it), instead of spreading them into a Space Marine legion.

How is a guy blaming his psychosis on how his daddy mistreated him more sympathetic than, say, Magnus, whose sin was wanting to know stuff and to save his sons, and it cost him his whole Legion (you know, which he actually cared about).

 Harriticus wrote:
Honestly of all the Primarchs, I think Angron can be made out to be the most sympathetic. Being the only Primarch who refused to leave his adopted world but being forced into this life as more or less the Emperor's slave.

Angron is basically Spartacus denied. A slave violated even in his own mind who led a revolt with the people whose plight he shared, only to have his moment of reckoning stolen from him by an absent father keen on being a weapons-grade jerk. The book explores this quite well. Under this light, it makes sense that he doesn't give a toss about his Legion; they are not the ones he shared his early life with or wanted to die for. Every victory of theirs only expands the tyranny of the merciless father who allowed his true companions to die unsung and unavenged.

There's a bit in the early chapters that I really hope is a set-up. Argel Tal comments that Legions should be inspired by their primarchs, and Kharn admits that the World Eaters don't feel that way about Angron, even after they have taken up the Nails. As the story develops, I wonder if they -will- eventually come to honestly admire and worship him, as they lose themselves to Khorne, achieving that awe in wanting to be what he has become: an avatar of pure rage.

I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.

 Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.

Kharn just may be the closest of them all to the ideal of a life of unceasing violence. Not saying it's a good thing, but under that insane premise it does work. It's not unlike Kyras' last speech in DoW2. "We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery. This universe is mindless.".

According to te latest CSM codex, not all Khorne lords are frothing madmen, though during battle you could be excused for believing otherwise.

That last part isn't exactly a new concept.

 Sephyr wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.

Kharn just may be the closest of them all to the ideal of a life of unceasing violence. Not saying it's a good thing, but under that insane premise it does work. It's not unlike Kyras' last speech in DoW2. "We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery. This universe is mindless.".

QFT - and Kyras "the Khorne librarian" concept sucks....

 Omegus wrote:
There's always choice, and Angron chose to mutilate his sons (after killing a bunch of them), and then to massacre whole worlds. He refused to leave his fellow rebels behind, not his world.

Actually, he didn't refuse to leave his fellow rebels behind; he refused to leave period. The Emperor hijacked him because he was going to die; his fellow rebels were left because they wanted to continue the fight.

 Omegus wrote:

How is a guy blaming his psychosis on how his daddy mistreated him more sympathetic than, say, Magnus, whose sin was wanting to know stuff and to save his sons, and it cost him his whole Legion (you know, which he actually cared about).

Magnus's sin was more than that, he worked a deal with Tzeentch to save his sons shortly after taking over that legion.

-------
So what we have is Angron, as one of the only primarchs to fail in subjugating the world he grew up on prior to being reunited with daddy, being forcefully pulled away from a fight that he should have plainly been left to prosecute. The Emperor should have let Angron finish what he started even if failure meant his death. Stealing Angron away didn't just dishonor Angron and his freedom fighters, but dishonored the very ideals and purpose the Emperor supposedly had for him. The level of irony is almost comical.

The killing of "his" legionnaires is actually understandable as they were a representation of the Emperor. It only stopped when he came across Kharn who convinced him that he understood what honor was.

With Magnus, one of the first things he did was make a pact with the 40k equivalent of a devil. No sympathy for that as right out of the gate, Magnus royally screwed up and truly belongs in the same boat as Lorgar.

Magnus, despite his own abilities, found himself unable to save his legion, and found himself forced to turn to a higher power, and if he didn't, his legion would have likely been exterminated. Magnus, more than any of the Primarchs, believed in the ideal of the Great Crusade, the triumph of knowledge and reason over superstition. Only the Great Crusade was never actually about that, it was always about ignorance, about keeping humanity in the dark concerning the truth of the universe.

Angron has a sympathetic backstory, one I've defended many times, but he can't compare to Magnus in that regard. Not when he deliberately turned his legion into a legion of bloodthirsty madmen, not when he regularly massacred civilians without thought or care, not when he helped plunge the galaxy into chaos, without Chaos even needing to orchestrate his fall, like Magnus's was.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus, despite his own abilities, found himself unable to save his legion, and found himself forced to turn to a higher power, and if he didn't, his legion would have likely been exterminated. Magnus, more than any of the Primarchs, believed in the ideal of the Great Crusade, the triumph of knowledge and reason over superstition.

True - even now he considers CG as warp abominations or leeches, nothing else...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the Great Crusade was never actually about that, it was always about ignorance, about keeping humanity in the dark concerning the truth of the universe.

False - and totally Lorgar's PoV

Yes, that point of view is touched by Lorgar's madness (neither him nor his truest son, Argel Tal, really liked the reality they saw behind the veil, but they refuse to "live in ignorance" since they work from the assumption that an Eldar-like event for humanity is inevitable, except will be on a much larger scale, and if we don't embrace the truth of the universe now, we're all going to be screwed down the road).

That said, I don't think it's inaccurate to label the Imperium as anti-truth. For example, the Emperor practically set Magnus up for a fall, probably so he had a good excuse to imprison him in the Throne (Magnus saw the throne as an honor, but I don't think he was aware of the full extent of its price...see Malcador). He blinded the Imperium at the most dire of times. The fact is, the scale of the Emperor's ambition is simply too great to consider the fate of an individual, which is why he probably tolerated the horrors of the Petitioners' City right at his doorstep. The lifespan of a single human being is simply too short to draw his attention; by the time he affected change, you'd be dead anyway. So the Imperium probably wouldn't be all too different if the Heresy didn't occur; the Emperor made clear his intention to pass the minutiae of rule to mortals, and he only had one Perfect Son, anyway. He could minimize the Warp's influence by stamping out occult knowledge and taking over the Webway, but in such a huge and diverse Empire, there would always be Chaos cultists. Mutants and psykers would still have to be thoroughly oppressed, So at the end of the day, just like in the "modern" Imperium, you either accept your lot in life and serve the Emperor, or you die.

I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.

It is inarguable that the Emperor actively endeavored to keep humanity in the dark about faith, Chaos, how the two are connected, and whatnot. He strove to use that ignorance to help starve the Chaos Gods, and whether they are real gods or not is irrelevant.

I loved the book. All the characters were written fine. Poor argal tal :(

 theheartcollectors wrote:
I loved the book. All the characters were written fine. Poor argal tal :(

Yup. So ironic that a man with a deamon in him would actually go down out of loyalty and honor.

I might need to pick this book up now :/

Yeah I thought that twist was awesome. I never expected it. I'd say one of my favorite parts of the book was the battle close to the start when the ultramarines make a last stand against the world eaters using shields to break their advance. And the ultramarines champion tearing kharn a new one.

Really this book just highlights how much of a pussy ass bitch all of the Primarchs are. And the Emperor is just stupid. I liked it though.

 theheartcollectors wrote:
Yeah I thought that twist was awesome. I never expected it. I'd say one of my favorite parts of the book was the battle close to the start when the ultramarines make a last stand against the world eaters using shields to break their advance. And the ultramarines champion tearing kharn a new one.

It wasn't a champion but the plaentary commander of a war planet, so he'd likely be the equivalent of a Chapter Master. But yeah, he was doing a fine job against Kharn.

I like the book because it's one of the few in which all sides come out looking great.

Ultramarines come across as valiant and utterly dangerous even in defeat. Given that they spend the whole book facing two legions backed by their primarchs and warships of unheard-of scale, they do a good job at selling each battle dear.

Angron gets more fleshed out, with some borderline sympathetic moments. For those who have the audiobooks, the performance is really good, especially toward the end. His rants at Russ and Roboute are the stuff revolution and rebellion are made of.

Lorgar really shines here. He has many of the best lines, seems to genuinely care for his brothers and graduates from whiny prayboy into a magnificent bastard worthy of respect, even if he is going rather insane.

Argel Tal is a pragmatic, tragic figure who honestly dislikes the current turn of events, but simply can't argue with the truth.

Kharn is an amusing badass you can respect, but they really should flesh out the reason he supports the Heresy a bit more.

The Space wolves come across as arrogant but still well-meaning, and able to keep their eyes on the prize even when things are going bad for them.

And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.

And if Lotara is not elevated to daemon princess at some point, the Chaos Gods deserve to lose.

I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.

He was probably one of the few primarchs who understood the end game and didn't cause his legion to be shattered like Magnus Agron and Fulgrim.

He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.

Actually, no. It exists, despite what his all-knowing Father told him. It's the key to power on unimaginable scale. In fact, as he demonstrates in the book, it is a path for an endless, higher existence free from time, death and physical demands.

Sure, Chaos sucks for those being sacrificed or stomped. So does compliance, if you're the one being shelled by Space Wolves Whirlwinds, taking bolter round sto the face because your tithe wasn't up to specs, and so on.

 Sephyr wrote:

And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.

Another comeuppance hmm, he's not doing so well the poor chap, does he lose his face again?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.

Lorgar made a deal for truth, Magnus made a deal to save his sons. At least Lorgar went into it with his eyes open.

Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But

Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.

He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But

Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.

He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.

Lorgar doesn't seem to be very happy either.

Magnus was pretty much the same, crying into the warp because he couldn't save his sons, making pacts with powers he thought he was better than, sulking after he got told off by his dad, thinking he knows best and ignoring what he was told. They are both as bad as each other. Now go to your rooms the pair of you