The Betrayer *spoilers*

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**Void__Dragon**

Why do you continue to bring up Magnus?

Did I kick salt in someone's food or something?

**Pilau Rice**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Why do you continue to bring up Magnus?

Did I kick salt in someone's food or something?

You should see me talking about Leman Russ, I bet you would be happy then

I don't dislike any Primarch, but when someone is championing one over the other i'll stick up for the other guy. No Primarch is amazing as they were all flawed things, although the loyalist ones seem to be the less broken.

I'm just saying that Lorgar and Magnus are quite similar in their failings despite both doing different things.

**Void__Dragon**

I uh, didn't bring up Magnus vs. Lorgar, lol.

I also don't actually dislike Leman Russ. Or even the Space Wolves anymore.

Just some of their fans.

**Formosa**

This was such a good book it shocks me that so many people are focussed on the fight between Russ and angron, kharn was one of my favorite characters of.the heresy so far, and what he did to erebus was.well deserved, Argul tal was also well written, all in all I put this book up there with horus rising, legion, fulgrim, and angel exterminatus as excellent books that redefines the characters they are.written about

**Pilau Rice**

Void__Dragon wrote:
I uh, didn't bring up Magnus vs. Lorgar, lol.

I also don't actually dislike Leman Russ. Or even the Space Wolves anymore.

Just some of their fans.

No, but you made nasty comments about Lorgar that needed addressing

Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.

Void__Dragon wrote:
He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.

Yeah, they do seem to enjoy bigging up their Legion like Thousand Sons fans .. oh wait ..

**DarthMarko**

Actually the more I'm going through the books Lorgar seems to be the only one who isn't a "man child " and I kind of like him...
Don't get me wrong guy has issues, but there are moments when he is five times more rational then most of his brothers...

**Omegus**

Sephyr wrote:
And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.

I thought that happened when Horus cut his face off.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.

He was probably one of the few primarchs who understood the end game and didn't cause his legion to be shattered like Magnus Agron and Fulgrim.

Actually, he basically admits in the book that Kor Phaeron and Erebus have lost sight of his vision and are doing their own thing, and is all butthurt when his favorite son is killed. Of course, he doesn't do anything about it, but rather retreats to his tower to meditate/produce scripture, letting Kor Phaeron and Erebus systematically purge the Word Bearer ranks every few decades or so in an endless power struggle with no real point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But

Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.

He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.

I disagree with this assessment. Lorgar seems fully aware just how gakky Chaos is, but he considers the alternative to be worse (i.e. what happened to the Eldar). Humanity's psychic potential is awakening with every passing moment, and no amount of pogroms or dogmatic repression is going to stop that. Eventually, the dam will break and we will have the birth of Slaanesh x1000. If humanity refuses Chaos like the Eldar did, we too will become a scattered race of bitter survivors trying to eke out a few more years in an uncaring universe (except given the scale of humanity, there probably won't be a universe).

**Pwn'd You**

This was by far one of my favorites and not just because I have pre heresy world eaters, I loved the depth it gave the world eaters and angron(wasn't much death but its considering I thought they had nine to begin with) kharns portrayal was amazing as was Argel tal and angron for that matter. I thought it was a great mix of action and storyline and loved how it was broken up into two stories almost. And I personally loved lotara sarin, plus it was nice to see Erebus get stomped

**Corporal_Reznov**

Omegus wrote:
Yes, that point of view is touched by Lorgar's madness (neither him nor his truest son, Argel Tal, really liked the reality they saw behind the veil, but they refuse to "live in ignorance" since they work from the assumption that an Eldar-like event for humanity is inevitable, except will be on a much larger scale, and if we don't embrace the truth of the universe now, we're all going to be screwed down the road).

That said, I don't think it's inaccurate to label the Imperium as anti-truth. For example, the Emperor practically set Magnus up for a fall, probably so he had a good excuse to imprison him in the Throne (Magnus saw the throne as an honor, but I don't think he was aware of the full extent of its price...see Malcador). He blinded the Imperium at the most dire of times. The fact is, the scale of the Emperor's ambition is simply too great to consider the fate of an individual, which is why he probably tolerated the horrors of the Petitioners' City right at his doorstep. The lifespan of a single human being is simply too short to draw his attention; by the time he affected change, you'd be dead anyway. So the Imperium probably wouldn't be all too different if the Heresy didn't occur; the Emperor made clear his intention to pass the minutiae of rule to mortals, and he only had one Perfect Son, anyway. He could minimize the Warp's influence by stamping out occult knowledge and taking over the Webway, but in such a huge and diverse Empire, there would always be Chaos cultists. Mutants and psykers would still have to be thoroughly oppressed, So at the end of the day, just like in the "modern" Imperium, you either accept your lot in life and serve the Emperor, or you die.

Spoiler:

The worth of the individual was the greatest lie the Imperium had made its people swallow. From soldiers in the army to the scribes of the palace to the workers toiling in the factories, every human life was in service to the Emperor. Whether they realised it or not, the human race had been yoked to the singular goal of the galaxy’s conquest.

For the first time in his life, Kai saw the Imperium for what it was, a machine that could operate on such a vast scale only because its fuel of human life was in never-ending supply. He had been part of that machine, but he was a tiny cog that had slipped its gear and was tumbling without purpose through its delicate workings. Kai knew enough of such mechanisms to know that such a random piece could not be allowed to remain within the body of the machine. Either that piece was returned to its designated place, or it was cast out and discarded.

Malcador died cause he just wasn't powerful enough to withstand the Golden Throne. One would think that Magnus could withstand it seeing as he is a powerful psyker and a Primarch.

The Emp let humans run the Imperium cause he was busy and no one person can rule the galaxy on their own. Also it shows that the Emp has no real care about wanting to rule the human race seeing as he could have ruled over humanity before humanity even traveled space if he wanted to.

The petitioner's city IIRC was created by people who were waiting for the chance to petition the palace or something IIRC. That sprung up around the time the Emp was busy with the Webway project and then dealing with the damage caused by Magnus.

Also about accepting one's lot in life? That applies to humans in the Tau empire and humans following Chaos too. Freedom doesn't exist in 40k.

clively wrote:

So what we have is Angron, as one of the only primarchs to fail in subjugating the world he grew up on prior to being reunited with daddy, being forcefully pulled away from a fight that he should have plainly been left to prosecute. The Emperor should have let Angron finish what he started even if failure meant his death. Stealing Angron away didn't just dishonor Angron and his freedom fighters, but dishonored the very ideals and purpose the Emperor supposedly had for him. The level of irony is almost comical.

Angron was pissed because the Emp saved him and not his fellow slaves. Angron wanted to die and the Emp didn't want that.

here's what someone stated about the entire thing between Angron and the Emp on another forum:

The Emperor didn't seem to know what to do with Angron. Angron was broken and the world surrendered to the Imperium so in theory the fighting should be over, but there was no way Angron and his rebels were going to go for that. So the Emperor takes Angron and lets the locals takes out the rebels, which of course makes Angron furious. The Emperor probably left Angron with his legion so they could bond and with Angron bonding with his genetic sons who are loyal to the Emperor and thus get past the whole incident in time.

This didn't work.