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One of the most annoying player types I've encountered is TFG who complains every single time they lose a model. Tactical squad rolled ten saves and failed two? WHY CAN'T MY POWER ARMOR WORK. Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED. You took plasma guns and killed something with them? STOP BEING TFG AND PLASMA SPAMMING. Killed a Land Raider? MELTA IS OP, STOP BEING TFG. No matter if you rolled average, or even below average, any outcome in which a space marine dies is automatically unfair. And needless to say this completely ruins the game, to the point where you have to start seriously considering not shooting anymore just to get them to shut up.

So, the question to the rest of you: is there something about having 2+/3+ armor saves that makes you expect that all of your stuff should never die? Are IG/Ork/etc players forced to learn how to handle losses or ragequit and disappear from the community faster? Or is it just coincidence that the examples that I've encountered have both been marine players?

It does seem to usually be a SM problem.

People buy in to the dung BL, Sm fluff etc shovels that one SM can destroy/purge a world just by breathing, then get butthurt when their 'indestructible' SM's bite it.

Doesn't help that a lot of the time SM armies are the first one you have, and they are in many ways playing 40K on easy mode. I've found that non-SM players are a lot more accepting of the deaths of their armies.

Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..

Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.

It could be the small, elite thing, but i've not seem this tendency to get so emotionally invested in each guy in Eldar, or other armies that tend to the small and elite builds.

Firstly, may I ask how old this player is? I get the impression he's an adult, which is really, really sad...

Anyway, it's probably coincidence. For every good, nice, considerate and fun player there are 2 TFGs.

*** before the flaming begins ***

I'm not hating on SM here. I have played several chapters over the years myself.

The tendency is still there though, and it's usually SM or CSM players i've seen it in. (Occasionally also Daemons, when a DP or GD dies.)

 Ascalam wrote:
Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..

Or even elite IG. Glass cannon artillery tanks die early and often, Chimeras explode and take half a veteran squad with them, plasma gunners kill themselves, etc. Even if you play elite IG you're going to either get used to removing your favorite models, or you're going to quit the game entirely within your first few games.

For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?

My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.

Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Painbiro wrote:
Firstly, may I ask how old this player is? I get the impression he's an adult, which is really, really sad...

Both were adults, at least 20-30 years old. The opponent I played tonight was married with kids, so I can only imagine how bad family game night is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.

The funny thing is that one of the people I'm thinking of played a completely bare plastic GK army and had barely even even read the fluff part of his codex. But over and over again he'd roll average or better on his armor saves and complain about how his power armor isn't working. It's like there was the mental blind spot on the fact that a 3+ save means you still fail a third of the time, and his expectation was that he had a rerollable 2++.

As a SM player I was a little taken aback at how often an obscenely expensive unit would die. After a few games I've gotten used to it. I find it's easier to just laugh it off and keep rolling the dice. Eventually your deathstar termi squad will be taken down at range before they can do anything, or calgar will mishap and get sucked into the warp. Nothing you can do, so keep playing and save the story for later conversations of epic fails.

That said after getting into apocalypse... well, nothing can prepare you for losing a titan... doesn't really matter what turn, or how bad it failed, seeing a titan that's half the size of the table die to tau broadsides... that's a hard one to live down.

This is usually a problem with the young space marine players. They think guard is over powered, so they start complaining the moment I put models down.

If I am not paired up to play against them, I don't chose to. I don't like having my opponent whine about my army the whole game. (Although if you rolled like I did today, whineing about how bad your are rolling is perfectly acceptable. )

It is just coincidence that the examples that you've encountered have both been marine players.

Nothing more than coincidence.

I do tend to find that a disproportionate number of MEQ players do get whiney when they lose models. But then, I also find that the ones who'll whine loudest are the TFG's/Bandwagoner FotM types who go out and buy the newest greatest netlist and expect to win every game...

The only times I myself ever bemoan my Space Marines "forgetting to slip the 'ON' button" is when I'm lucky to be passing maybe 30% of my saves!
However, I try to keep it lighthearted and comical because everyone has those games where the dice gods just seem to hate you. Unfortuneately for me, that tends to be most games! Heck, one of the last games I played with my Salamanders, I passed barely 10% of my armour saves - 3+ is good my !

When I do vehemently complain though, it's typically because my opponent is being a donkeycave. Like the first game I ever had vs the new GK's;
- GK player looked at my case full of Daemons, then pulls out a bunch of Interceptors and a pair of 10 man Strike Squads...
- He wins the roll for first turn and I fail to grab the intiative...
- Doucebag Warp Quakes the entire table, and then juggles my auto-mishapping units between quake bubbles to ensure he auto-wipes my entire army!
- Then he tells me I deserve it for ruining Fantasy and being a WAAC's Daemon hole and I should go out and buy a real army instead of a broken pile of OP crap...

Sounds like you're playing against whiny and terrible people. It doesn't matter what army they're playing, they'll be the same way about everything.

Reasonable people might get miffed if they fail a disproportionate amount of saves. I know I've gotten a little despondent when I rolled 5 armor saves for terminators only to lose 4.

The difficulty stems from people who are not thinking clearly about what certain probabilities really mean.

A person who looks at a 3+ save may get in the mindset "I will always make this save" just like players who have a 5 or 6+ may fall into a " I will always fail this why bother" attitude. A 3+ save fails 1 in 3 and people who are not prepared for that will grouse.

There is also observer bias where people fixate on only the result they want; a marine player will discouragingly only focus on his failures and declares 'my dice sucks' or ' X is overpowered'. It takes a fair bit of maturity to overcome that, something not everyone you will play against will ever see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I do tend to find that a disproportionate number of MEQ players do get whiney when they lose models. But then, I also find that the ones who'll whine loudest are the TFG's/Bandwagoner FotM types who go out and buy the newest greatest netlist and expect to win every game...

The only times I myself ever bemoan my Space Marines "forgetting to slip the 'ON' button" is when I'm lucky to be passing maybe 30% of my saves!
However, I try to keep it lighthearted and comical because everyone has those games where the dice gods just seem to hate you. Unfortuneately for me, that tends to be most games! Heck, one of the last games I played with my Salamanders, I passed barely 10% of my armour saves - 3+ is good my !

When I do vehemently complain though, it's typically because my opponent is being a donkeycave. Like the first game I ever had vs the new GK's;
- GK player looked at my case full of Daemons, then pulls out a bunch of Interceptors and a pair of 10 man Strike Squads...
- He wins the roll for first turn and I fail to grab the intiative...
- Doucebag Warp Quakes the entire table, and then juggles my auto-mishapping units between quake bubbles to ensure he auto-wipes my entire army!
- Then he tells me I deserve it for ruining Fantasy and being a WAAC's Daemon hole and I should go out and buy a real army instead of a broken pile of OP crap...

Thats why I pack more than one army, If is see list tailoring my alternate army is easily able to afford the same courtesy.

Theres this kid in my neighborhood who is exactly like that. He basically cries anytime he loses something in his TEQ spam army. Then for some reason, he just stopped showing up to play at my HS game club like thing. We all just kinda shrugged and didn't care, no one really like to play him anyway.

Then a few months down the line he came back. I was the first man "Into the breach". When he went to go assault my poor 10 man vet squad with 5 Termies, my vets must have gotten REALLY pissed off at this and overwatch then killed 1 of them (The termies), and in the following melee the vets killed ALL the remaining Terminators. We all expected him to just rage-quit, but instead we both started laughing our asses off at what just happened all the while creating interesting stories about what it must have been like.

We don't know what caused the kid to change, but he's no longer TFG. Maybe in his absence a wave of maturity finally hit him haha

 lazarian wrote:


There is also observer bias where people fixate on only the result they want; a marine player will discouragingly only focus on his failures and declares 'my dice sucks' or ' X is overpowered'. It takes a fair bit of maturity to overcome that, something not everyone you will play against will ever see.

Sums it it I think.

I can say that, at least for me, I start to get frustrated when I lose a marine every time I have to roll more one or more saves. It's irritating having 2 and 3+ saves but losing precious models because I can't stop rolling 1's...this is compounded by the fact that my opponent habitually rolls well on his saves and hardly ever loses anything unless I put a blindingly huge firing squad to it.

That said, it takes until turn 4 or 5 for this to start really getting to me...it's a frustrating experience having the odds work so heavily in your favor on paper but to then roll a terminator death three turns in a row because one lasgun got through and you rolled three 1's (yes I've had this happen).

It's all in how you handle it though. I've seen people get frustrated at the other player like he's cheating or something. For me, I scoff at it and move on, but inside i'm going "ffffuuuuuuuuuuu"

I only find it frustrating when the dice come up with a really really unexpected result.
Failing 5/6 2+ saves on your hammernators as they try to split open the skulls of guardsmen, or having your opponent pass every single save he makes in a round of shooting...

It can be frustrating, and it can fray nerves if you are super serious, but what generally happens is you as a player remember the time you fail all your saves, and conveniently forget all the times you pass your saves.

As an example, back in 3rd ed, my necron phalanx got pretty much wiped out by guard in a single round of shooting, i had 35/45 necrons down, when it came to my WBB rolls, 28 or 29 of them got back up again. this is remembered by me because it won me the game, and by my opponent because it cost him the game.

As quite a veteran gamer, i expect casualties, and i am quite happy to sacrifice units if it will win me the game, but newer players in particular aren't quite as comfortable with this abstract view of the game, and so drama can ensue

The only reason I complain when I get beat with my Space marines/Necrons is because it's completely my fault. I may have the worst dice rolling luck EVER.

It's not because my opponent took anything "overpowered", it's because I fail 75% of my dice rolls, both offensively and defensively, lol. You would think that a 3+ armor save would translate into a better than 50% chance of saving against wounds, but not from these golden fingers, noooo.

In all seriousness, though, I think it's because Space marine players with the wrong attitude are set up to fail. They are told at every turn how SM armies are the best sure-fire winning army, by everyone on the 'net, and by GW itself using them as the posterboy army. So when their so-called "easy mode" army is at the mercy of a player with better tactics on the table, and pure luck itself with the dice, it can be a harsh reality. Necrons tend to have players of the same mindset, too, especially of late.

I mean, c'mon, the other armies' worth are basically compared against Space Marines as a baseline, ala "Eldar Dark Reaper armor is 3+, that's as good as a Space Marine!".

For the record, when I play Eldar, I use tons of Starcannons against my buddies Black Templars. That's because Eldar are smart, not OP, lol.

I can safely say I'm gonna name all of my models in my future SM army, but instead of whining, I just roll a series of d6s to see if I gotta rename models. XD Seriously, I hate morons who believe fluff translates into TT ability

I don't know if it's as much fluff translation as it is believing the hype laid down on all Space Marine-based armies. Plus, lets face it. A lot of us are huge nerds, and at our core are hoping to be vindicated by finally showing our dominance over somebody by winning, and some of us can't overcome that feeling and just have fun. So they rage when they can't win, because frankly that's all they are wanting out of the experience.

Just look at experiences. A bunch of use have (at least) once faced off against that guy that doesn't seem to want to engage us socially during a game, they just boredly move their models across the table. They make it clear that the only facet they are looking to get anything from is the winning endgame.

You may not see a conection here but, When I run my little Hive Tyrant deathstar. You know the 2+ and the 3 guards thing. Anyways Iv noticed that when I'm hungry my tyrant does better overall, like passes its saves or hits and kills things in CC. I know it sounds dumb but it works for me. (Note: its only my Hive tyrant that works this way, all my other MC and troops dont get afftected by this.)

And for TFC who complaine all the time. I had a guy call my 4 bessis and mantacore army overpowerd....

It's not just the 3+ save. When you're dealing with Tactical squads, it's basically 8 models with a 3+ save until you get to the stuff that actually has value.

Oh noooo I just lost a Boltgun.

Honestly; I can say I perpetrated this. Not in whining, but going from guard to GK, I expected Power Armor to be practically invincible.

Oops.

madtankbloke wrote:
I only find it frustrating when the dice come up with a really really unexpected result.
Failing 5/6 2+ saves on your hammernators as they try to split open the skulls of guardsmen, or having your opponent pass every single save he makes in a round of shooting...

It can be frustrating, and it can fray nerves if you are super serious, but what generally happens is you as a player remember the time you fail all your saves, and conveniently forget all the times you pass your saves.

I guess I'm so used to crap dice that it doesn't bother me anymore... I mean, my 'Space Marine gaming career' has always typically gone;
- Every single plasma weapon in the army exploding spectacularly on its first shots. Hell, I've tabled myself on the final turn a couple times just through plasma overheats!

- Failing every single dangerous terrain test throughout an ENTIRE TOURNAMENT! on a Rhino w/Dozer Blade upgrade.

- Passing maaaaybe 30% of my armour saves on a regular basis. (please, never make me roll saves for Termies, it's never pretty! )

- Routinely failing the one or two or so Dangerous Terrain checks on Jump Infantry. (and yet, my IG Drop Troops hardly ever died to the same, but apparently my marines' just love flying head first into solid walls or swan diving onto tree limbs! )

- My Librarians routinly like to fail their psychic tests on boxcars... At a tournament over the summer, my one idiot Epistolary managed to outright kill himself in 3 of 6 games doing this!

- My MISSile launchers and lascannons are lucky to hit once or twice a game. Then of corse, I like to roll just under what I need to glance/pen the target that's been raping my army for the past 3-4 turns! (hell, I think I should just use the blindfolded mutation sprue head for my gunners - they're be just as accurate!)

- I've never once passed Cypher's 4++ save on 3D6.



Sure I have the occaional good game of average or slightly above rolling, but it's not very often... Still, I don't understand why I should ever get seriously upset about it? If anything, it's quite funny to see just much worse things can get!

My best game ever though was that one game I rolled like a champ and nearly tabled Phil Kelly's Ulthwe army! (in 3rd edition w/Codex: Armageddon Salamanders no less!)
No way I'd ever forget that moment of triumph!

Yeah I think it's the people not the army. I play regularly against a SW player and more often than not I gun down his wolf guard with lasguns which just leads to us laughing and chatting. Same with the BA player.

However I kill one gaunt with a stray shot? OMG THE GARD R OP. My local tyranid player is the one who can't seem to handle losing a model.

 Peregrine wrote:
Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED.

If someone ever said that to me I would quickly reply "AND THERE'S NOT A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT" and wear the smuggest face I could muster.

Try playing with grown-ups.

 Griddlelol wrote:

However I kill one gaunt with a stray shot? OMG THE GARD R OP. My local tyranid player is the one who can't seem to handle losing a model.

God.. that must be awful to a man running gaunts

I mean, I'll bitch a little when a flamer kills 5/5 terminators but the whining is more of a facepalm of disbelief than anything. I haven't run into much of the same problem with anyone that you have peregrine, though I've only just started attending my FLGS regularly, so I'm sure I'll run into this sooner or later

Figuring out how to respond to such children would be nice though

 Testify wrote:
Try playing with grown-ups.

YAH BURN PEREGRINE, U PLAY AT THE DAYCARE OR SOMEFIN?

But no, really. There are plenty of adults with poor gaming-etiquette.

Have you ever played online games?

 Necroshea wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED.

If someone ever said that to me I would quickly reply "AND THERE'S NOT A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT" and wear the smuggest face I could muster.

Ahh.. There's my solution. + = me


Also! If someone starts spouting garbage like the plethora of examples that have been listed here, one could also start suggesting "solutions" to this problem.

Well.. you know.. 3 Assault marine squads with twin LC Sarges, and whirlwinds, are great hard counters to plasma gun spam. OH! and 5 man TAC squads in a twin linked heavy flamer razor back. Those are great too. Will totally wreck an army like mine... yeah...

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Try playing with grown-ups.

YAH BURN PEREGRINE, U PLAY AT THE DAYCARE OR SOMEFIN?

But no, really. There are plenty of adults with poor gaming-etiquette.

Have you ever played online games?

The glorious thing about 40k is that it's played face-to-face. Playing 40k with someone who's an immature little bitch, regardless of their age, would be like having sex with someone who's ugly, then complaining when you can't achieve orgasm.

 Testify wrote:

The glorious thing about 40k is that it's played face-to-face. Playing 40k with someone who's an immature little bitch, regardless of their age, would be like having sex with someone who's ugly, then complaining when you can't achieve orgasm.

What a remarkably crass analogy.

But in 40k, you don't complain about the person's face. You complain about their attitude, which more often than not comes out DURING said game, not beforehand. Can't really preemptively refuse a game because someone "looks immature". Then once you're deployed, and a turn or two in, you're not going to back down. You'll avoid them later, yes. But that one game probably is just going to involve some teeth-gritting.

Now, my policy about not playing against ugly people; that's a different story.