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If a Stormraven deepstrikes, it doesn't count as zooming, and would therefore be able to be shot at full ballistic skill yes? If so, you couldn't drop it anywhere within shooting range anyway or you'll be blown out of the sky the following turn.

 Homeskillet wrote:
If a Stormraven deepstrikes, it doesn't count as zooming, and would therefore be able to be shot at full ballistic skill yes? If so, you couldn't drop it anywhere within shooting range anyway or you'll be blown out of the sky the following turn.

It does/can count as Zooming.

 Heartless wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


Now we have Mordrak, a Special Character that is not an Independent Character, who may be treated as an Upgrade Character when accompanied by Ghost Knights. Mordrak also has this pesky special rule that lets him as well as any unit he accompanies to arrive on turn 1 via deep strike

SJ

However, Mordrak's rule states that he and the unit that he accompanies. Not "any".

Would this not suggest that he could only ever "accompany" one unit and therefore, could not affect the Stormraven?

GK Codex, page 40, Under "First to the Frey": "If he deploys via Deep Strike, Mordrak and any unit he accompanies ..."

I'd suggest reading the actual entry rather reading into the entry what you want to see.

SJ

Answer Rigelds posts proving you wrong, as you have been incapable of doing that so far

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK Codex, page 40, Under "First to the Frey": "If he deploys via Deep Strike, Mordrak and any unit he accompanies ..."

I'd suggest reading the actual entry rather reading into the entry what you want to see.

Any unit. Singular.
Does not say "any units"

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK Codex, page 40, Under "First to the Frey": "If he deploys via Deep Strike, Mordrak and any unit he accompanies ..."

I'd suggest reading the actual entry rather reading into the entry what you want to see.

Any unit. Singular.
Does not say "any units"

This is basic friggin english....
Unit-1
Units-1+

The only post by Rigeld2 I have not answered is his one on Stormravens zooming, which I find to be self-evident and have no issues with.

As to the any = singular, the word "any" is an adjective used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many. "Any" does not mean "one". In a sentence stating "any unit", the choice is amongst the available units in the group. If there is only one available unit in the group, "any" would apply to that singular unit. However, if there are several units in the group, then "any" would apply to as few or as many of the available units in that group.

If you wish go all "English Major" on me, please at least be correct.

SJ

At this point, this thread has fallen to the trolls.

Fragile wrote:
At this point, this thread has fallen to the trolls.

Any chance you got a magic Acorn?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The only post by Rigeld2 I have not answered is his one on Stormravens zooming, which I find to be self-evident and have no issues with.

Do me a favor then, because I must've missed it.

Which post of yours answers the issues I brought up here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495665.page#5095806

it specifically says in the BRB that if a unit is embarked upon a transport when coming from reserves then the transport comes with

is mordrak in a transport (SR)?
yes
is he arriving from reserves?
yes
do units embarked within a transport arrive from reserves with the transport?
yes
would he arrive from reserves with the SR since he is in the SR which is a transport?
yes
does GW use inconsistent wording when making their rules?
yes
should all you ninny's quit arguing and face facts that GK just got more op?
yes

 A GumyBear wrote:

does GW use inconsistent wording when making their rules?
yes

Sometimes, not all the time.

However any unit Mordrak accompanies... Which can only be the unit he is joined to, as IC are not allowed to join more than one unit. (Not that he could ever join the SR anyway since it is always a unit that consists of a single model).

First off term "any unit" doesnt mean mean multiple units. It means whatever unit mordrak is a part of.
Mordrak has permission to join some units. Stormravens are not a unit that Mordrak can join.
The issue gummybear is that Mordrak CANT bring his stormraven with him, as his rules do not give him permission to do so. Mordrak may bring any unit with him on turn 1 - flyers can't arrive until turn 2.

If we were to believe whaf jeffersonian said then Mordrak could bring in all your reserves on turn 1. Obviously he is wrong, and his own conclusion supports this.

J - nope, you havent actually answered the points by using any actual rules. Try again.

"Any unit" allows it to be any single unit, but not restricted to any one unit in particular. Try again on your parsing of that sentence.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The only post by Rigeld2 I have not answered is his one on Stormravens zooming, which I find to be self-evident and have no issues with.

Do me a favor then, because I must've missed it.

Which post of yours answers the issues I brought up here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495665.page#5095806

That would be my 2nd post on this thread, on page 2, when I quoted you followed by referencing page 78 of the BRB. My first post on this thread, which is on the same page, was not directly in response to any post you made (see what I did there?).

Neronoxx wrote:
First off term "any unit" doesnt mean mean multiple units. It means whatever unit mordrak is a part of.
Mordrak has permission to join some units. Stormravens are not a unit that Mordrak can join.
The issue gummybear is that Mordrak CANT bring his stormraven with him, as his rules do not give him permission to do so. Mordrak may bring any unit with him on turn 1 - flyers can't arrive until turn 2.

If we were to believe whaf jeffersonian said then Mordrak could bring in all your reserves on turn 1. Obviously he is wrong, and his own conclusion supports this.

Are you stating that Mordrak may not embark upon a Stormraven? Where is that printed? last I checked, any TDA model can embark any transport with the exception of Rhinos and Razorbacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
J - nope, you havent actually answered the points by using any actual rules. Try again.

"Any unit" allows it to be any single unit, but not restricted to any one unit in particular. Try again on your parsing of that sentence.

I'm sorry for you lack of English comprehension? "Any" has never meant "just one", as I posted above.

SJ

(and sorry for the multiple edits, just wanted to get all three responses in one post)

"Mordrak has permission to join some units. Stormravens are not a unit that Mordrak can join. "

"Are you stating that Mordrak may not embark upon a Stormraven? Where is that printed? last I checked, any TDA model can embark any transport with the exception of Rhinos and Razorbacks.
"

Not sure how youget that from the first quote

You are trying to say "any unit" == "any (number of) unit(s)". Sorry for your inability to parse basic English, but it is limited to a single unit, just not any single unit in particular. Try again./

jeffersonian000 wrote:That would be my 2nd post on this thread, on page 2, when I quoted you followed by referencing page 78 of the BRB. My first post on this thread, which is on the same page, was not directly in response to any post you made (see what I did there?).

Pretty sure I responded to it before but I don't feel like looking through my posts on this thread - ill just respond now.

jeffersonian000 wrote:Pages 78, BRB, under “Transports”, there are several references to transports "carrying" units (1st paragraph, 3rd paragraph, as well as the 2nd paragraph under Dedicated Transports), units being "aboard" (last paragraph), and units shooting from inside (the entire Fire Point entry).

I ask you, how is a unit that is "inside", being "carried", and "aboard" a transport not accompanying that transport? An embarked unit is, per GW, considered to be physically present inside the transport, and even becomes Fearless while inside.

It's not accompanying because the definition of the word shows us its not.

Then we have on page 80 rules detailing how passengers are affected by vehicle damage. How are passengers not accompanying the transport if they can be affected by damage the transport receives?

Because they're embarked, not accompanying.

On page 40 of the GK codex, "First to the Frey" specifies that any unit accompanied by Mordrak is affected by that special rule. People on this thread are arguing over what "accompany" means. Common usage of "accompany" is:

Verb
1. Go somewhere with (someone) as a companion or escort.
2. Be present or occur at the same time as (something else).

Embarked, per GW's usage, means: to board a ship, aircraft, or other vehicle, as for a journey.

Definition #2 is irrelevant. Definition of #1 is how GW defines joining a unit, not merely being embarked.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
First off term "any unit" doesnt mean mean multiple units. It means whatever unit mordrak is a part of.
Mordrak has permission to join some units. Stormravens are not a unit that Mordrak can join.
The issue gummybear is that Mordrak CANT bring his stormraven with him, as his rules do not give him permission to do so. Mordrak may bring any unit with him on turn 1 - flyers can't arrive until turn 2.

If we were to believe what jeffersonian said then Mordrak could bring in all your reserves on turn 1. Obviously he is wrong, and his own conclusion supports this.

Are you stating that Mordrak may not embark upon a Stormraven? Where is that printed? last I checked, any TDA model can embark any transport with the exception of Rhinos and Razorbacks.

I never denied Mordrak the ability to embark upon a Storm Raven, nor did i dispute the embarking potential of TDA models. What i disputed was the rather large and fatal hole in your defense, jeffersonian.
Mordrak is allowed to deep strike with one unit ("...any unit...") on the first turn. Not only can Mordrak not join Storm Ravens (therefore not allwoing him to bring the Storm Raven in with him, as he must "accompany a unit") Flyers are not able to join the game before turn 2, unless explicitly allowed to. Furthermore, your definition of the word "accompany" in a 40k sense is shaky, and if one were to believe your false and incorrect interpretation of basic English differences between the singular usage of the word "unit" and the plural usage of the word, "units," one would be able to use "First to the Fray" to deep strike his entire army wherever he wanted.

I have asked you to cite pages in the BRB where the term "accompany" is described. you have failed to do so repeatedly. This can only lead us to believe that you are unable to do this, so i will extend the challenge to any other user. Find me a page in the BRB that defines the term "accompany." This is rather important to a RAW standing, as if you are unable to define accompany then Mordrak's rule is actually not usable by a RAW outlook.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
J - nope, you havent actually answered the points by using any actual rules. Try again.

"Any unit" allows it to be any single unit, but not restricted to any one unit in particular. Try again on your parsing of that sentence.

I'm sorry for you lack of English comprehension? "Any" has never meant "just one", as I posted above.

SJ

(and sorry for the multiple edits, just wanted to get all three responses in one post)

and here, you're sort of correct. Any has never meant "just one," but the singular form of "unit" does in fact mean one unit in particular
that is basic English comprehension, which you seem to lack.
Your posts are neither informative nor legitimate in any defense of this tactic, and your attitude has ranged from condescending to imbecile (see above.) I do not believe that you have any real evidence, support, claims, rules or data to back up your "opinions," which is clearly what you are posting. We (or at least myself) are not arguing our opinions, per say. We are discussing what the rules allow Mordrak to do. And so far there has been little to support Mordrak accompanying two units, let alone a Storm Raven or even "accompanying" anything at all, as that word has little to no meaning in 40k appearing in the full hardcover version a total of two times, neither of which are in the rules section, as was proven by sorginak himself.
Good day sir.

The fallacy of your argument is that Mordrak may only First to the Frey with a single unit of his choice, which excludes all the Independent Characters that could legally join him. Independent Characters are units, too.

In English, the word "any" does not exclude all but one of a group. "Any" allows choice from amongst a group, specifically as few or as many from a group as chosen. In the case of "Mordrak and any unit he accompanies" can be parsed out as "Mordrak+Ghosts+IC+Stormraven+grappled Dreadnought" because in English, Mordrak is being accompanied by his Ghost Knights, attacked ICs, the Deep Striking Stormraven he is embarked upon, and the Dreadnought that just so happens to be grapple to the back of the Stormraven. This is because "accompany" is a verb the means to go somewhere with someone or something as a companion or escort, and to be present or occur at the same time as someone or something else. So, in English, First to the Frey says Mordrak as well as each unit he is grouped with will arrive on the first turn without scatter if he and his group deep strike from reserve.

If doesn't matter how you decide to limit Mordrak's group, because the BRB by RAW tells us that Mordrak may be joined by his Ghost Knights, one or more Independent Characters, a vehicle he can legal embark upon as well as any passengers that may also be legally joined to the vehicle. In the case of Mordrak deep striking inside of a Stormraven, all criteria is met for First to the Frey to bypass the normal deployment sequence and allow Mordrak and his group to arrive first turn without scatter. Nowhere in First to the Frey does Mordrak's selection become limited to just one of the many units he may find himself accompanying while being placed in reserve.

My point, again, is if you wish to bring proper English into the discussion (which happens to be outside of the tenants of YMDC), then at the very least understand the English language. "Any" does mean as many or as few, "accompany" does mean going with and grouped together, and "unit" per GW means one or more models in a group. And as a separate point, GW does in fact use the word "dice" as a singular die or as multiples of dice, so it is safe to say GW in its own right does not have a firm grasp of the English language.

SJ

and besides it doesnt even matter if he is acomanying the SR or not the rules for coming in from reserves states that they, and any transport they are embarked upon come in with them regardless of your shenanigans

 A GumyBear wrote:
and besides it doesnt even matter if he is acomanying the SR or not the rules for coming in from reserves states that they, and any transport they are embarked upon come in with them regardless of your shenanigans

I think you just argeed with me, but I'm not sure.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:The fallacy of your argument is that Mordrak may only First to the Frey with a single unit of his choice, which excludes all the Independent Characters that could legally join him. Independent Characters are units, too.

Reread the IC rules, note that there is no longer a separate unit once they join. Your counter "argument" falls at the very first step - where you made a rule up

jeffersonian000 wrote:In English, the word "any" does not exclude all but one of a group.

Good job we're talking about the phrase "any unit", then. In actual, real English this is a singular entity, just not one limited to exactly which unit - you have a choice. That choice is still limited to a single unit in totality.

You keep failing, and failing hard, because you are not actually countering an argument anyone is making, but one you are making up. Good strawman.

jeffersonian000, you seems to be using the word "accompany" to mean having a relationship or associated with in some way via proximity and/or organization. This is so broad as to include nearly anything from a IC joining Mordrak to the whole GK force + allies.

Precedent and similar rules should be examined for intent, rather than just applying an overly broad dictionary definition. Several have been cited for you.

"Any" doesn't mean just one.

But using "unit" instead of "units" does. Game over.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The fallacy of your argument is that Mordrak may only First to the Frey with a single unit of his choice, which excludes all the Independent Characters that could legally join him. Independent Characters are units, too.

Except for when they join a unit, they're a member of that unit for all rules purposes. Or did you ignore that bit in the IC rules?

This is because "accompany" is a verb the means to go somewhere with someone or something as a companion or escort, and to be present or occur at the same time as someone or something else. So, in English, First to the Frey says Mordrak as well as each unit he is grouped with will arrive on the first turn without scatter if he and his group deep strike from reserve.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that accompany cannot mean anything beyond Mordrak's unit. Also, there is a difference between "any unit" and "each unit".

My point, again, is if you wish to bring proper English into the discussion (which happens to be outside of the tenants of YMDC), then at the very least understand the English language. "Any" does mean as many or as few, "accompany" does mean going with and grouped together, and "unit" per GW means one or more models in a group. And as a separate point, GW does in fact use the word "dice" as a singular die or as multiples of dice, so it is safe to say GW in its own right does not have a firm grasp of the English language.

The bolded is absolutely incorrect.
And you continue to ignore that GW uses "go with" to mean join to a unit. Until you resolve that problem your interpretation cannot be correct.
You haven't addressed that issue directly. Please provide rules quotes showing your definition of "to go somewhere with" is correct. I've shown rules quotes proving it is not correct.

That mighy havd been the single worst response be the j-man in this thread.
No proper rules cited.
Actually makes up rules.
Insists on using accompanies definition.
Doesnt understand singular VS plural.
Doesnt understand "any."
Doesn't understand the tenets of dakkadakka.

Gentlemen....i think we have a troll.

Neronoxx wrote:
That mighy havd been the single worst response be the j-man in this thread.
No proper rules cited.
Actually makes up rules.
Insists on using accompanies definition.
Doesnt understand singular VS plural.
Doesnt understand "any."
Doesn't understand the tenets of dakkadakka.

Gentlemen....i think we have a troll.

You just described yourself.

I have cited the relevant rules. No new rules were invented, I do in fact understand singular versus plural (yet posters on this thread apparently do not). I have gone out of my way to educate this thread on what "any" means and how "any" is used within the context of both the game and the English language. And I have in fact stayed within the tenets of Dakka.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

chipstar1 wrote:
"Any" doesn't mean just one.

But using "unit" instead of "units" does. Game over.

That would be true only if you had elementary understanding of the English language. Like grades k-4 understanding of English. Yet, it does seem to be the case, so I will agree that it is game over as there appears to be a stopping point due to lack of education and reading comprehension of my opponents.

I will try again, though, for those that might be able to grasp a 5th grade concept of English.

"Mordrak and any unit he accompanies" is not singular, in the same way as "chipstar1 and any post he has written" is not singular. Both statements use the word "any" to modify the singular word "unit" or "post" to include as many or as few "units" or "posts" that many exist within a set group (i.e., the units accompanying Mordrak or the posts in this thread). "Any" can easily be replaced by "every", which changes the meaning from as many or as few to all within the group. "Mordrak and every unit he accompanies" is the same as "chipstar1 and every post he has written", both statements being plural despite the singular usage of the words "unit" and "post". The difference between "any" and "every" is that "any" allows for less than "all" while "every" is limited to "all". If it was GW’s goal to limit First to the Frey to only the unit Mordrak is with, they would have written the rule as, “Mordrak and the unit he accompanies” (chipstar1 and the post he has written).

People in English speaking countries learn that basic concept before High School. Harp all you want about my supposed misunderstanding of singular versus plural, the truth is that I am not one with the misunderstanding. So yes, I can see where it is "Game Over" if the average reader is unable to understand such a basic concept in the English language. Because if you cannot understand basic English, then these rules GW has written are lost on you.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the word “accompany”, since it matters, the definition can be found on-line or in any dictionary. As it pertains to 40k, the following rules in the BRB should be read:

Page 3, Forming a Unit
Page 11, Unit Coherency
Page 39, Independent Characters
Page 78, Transports
Page 121, Deployment
Page 124, Reserves

In each instance, GW has provided language describing how models are grouped together, move together, deploy together, are reserved together, and how they can even occupied the same space together. The same language as can be found in the common use definition of “accompany”. So while “accompany” is never defined by GW as a term, when GW has used the word “accompany”, they have used it correctly to mean being grouped together, traveling together, to go with, to move with, to be with, etc. This does mean that since GW has defined the words “join” and “attach” to have specific meanings in 40k, the word “accompany” retains its common usage meaning when used by GW.

So when a “unit” is “embarked” upon a transport that is place in “reserves”, the “unit” and the transport they “accompany” will “deploy” together, per the rules as written. If this sequence is true in general, then it is true in specific. “A units of Space Marine Scouts are embarked on a Rhino and placed in reserves for Outflanking, and will arrive together when they are deployed” is a true statement. “Mordrak, 4 Ghosts Knight, and a Librarian embarked in a Stormraven are placed in reserves for Deep Striking, and will arrive together when they are deployed” is a true statement.

The only hang up seems to be whether or not First to the Frey will change the arrival time of a legally reserved “unit”. Per the BRB and the GK codex, the answer is yes if the unit in question has Mordrak, is reserved, and will be deep striking. It is not legal for Mordrak to arrive separately from the transport he is embarked upon. It is legal for the transport Mordrak is embarked upon to arrive with him on the same reserve roll. First to the Frey simply bypasses the reserve roll stage if the correct conditions are met, with no specific limitations beyond that. When we follow the rules as written, Mordrak will arrive on turn 1 without scatter if he is placed in reserve for deep striking, regardless of whether or not he is embarked on a deep strike capable transport. By following the rules as written, the deep striking transport Mordrak is embark upon will arrive with him when he deploys via deep strike from reserve, just like a non-deep striking transport would arrive with Mordrak from reserve when he passed his reserve roll to deploy.

No new rules created. The rules as written followed. All criteria for the special rule were met.

SJ

So you're saying riding in a transport is the same as joining a unit?

Can I laugh now, or should I wait?

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're saying riding in a transport is the same as joining a unit?

Can I laugh now, or should I wait?

I'm thinking the lysander should start taking look out sirs for my land raider redeemer.

What do you think jeffersonian? This is a rather unique rule you've "created."

You still haven't cited a clear definition in 40k's terms of the word "accompany." RAW Mordraks rule doesnt allow him to bring anything in, as there is no "accompanying" in 40k. Only joining.

But lets say we play along with your RAI. So any unit means more than one unit?

So what stops me from deepstriking my entire army? Your implied meaning of accompany? the one you just admitted doesnt actually exist in 40k?

This guy is brilliant... I've never seen a 100% Grade A Troll