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rigeld2 wrote:
So you're saying riding in a transport is the same as joining a unit?

Can I laugh now, or should I wait?

I think we've all been laughing for a few pages.

True, grade "A" 24-karat troll. Brilliant!

"Any unit" is plural, apparently. Lol. If we dont "understand" this then we're only grade 4 - what is that in English grades? 8 yrs old?

My entire army "accompanies" Mordrak. I can prove it too. See, its right here on the FOC. There Mordrak is, accompanying my army to every single battle it goes too.

Fragile wrote:
My entire army "accompanies" Mordrak. I can prove it too. See, its right here on the FOC. There Mordrak is, accompanying my army to every single battle it goes too.

Ima deepstrike mah landraiders!!!!!

Mock all you want, but none of you have posted a rebuttal as to why a unit in reserve would arrive over multiple turns. Because the only way for First to the Frey to not work is if you break the deployment from reserve rules. If Mordrak arrives on the same turn as the vehicle he is embarked upon, then the vehicle he is embarked upon will arrive at the same time as Mordrak. The only thing First to the Frey does as change which turn the arrival occurs on.

I’d like to see your reason why Mordrak cannot arrive from reserve in a vehicle he is embarked upon.

I'm waiting.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mock all you want, but none of you have posted a rebuttal as to why a unit in reserve would arrive over multiple turns. Because the only way for First to the Frey to not work is if you break the deployment from reserve rules. If Mordrak arrives on the same turn as the vehicle he is embarked upon, then the vehicle he is embarked upon will arrive at the same time as Mordrak. The only thing First to the Frey does as change which turn the arrival occurs on.

I’d like to see your reason why Mordrak cannot arrive from reserve in a vehicle he is embarked upon.

I'm waiting.

SJ

I already disproved you. Accompany doesn't exist in 40k. You stated this yourself.
Find me the word "accompany" in any of the rules. RAW Mordraks rule doesnt work, because accompanying means nothing in 40k, only joining, embarking, etc are actual rules. Point proven, hook, line and sinker.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mock all you want, but none of you have posted a rebuttal as to why a unit in reserve would arrive over multiple turns. Because the only way for First to the Frey to not work is if you break the deployment from reserve rules. If Mordrak arrives on the same turn as the vehicle he is embarked upon, then the vehicle he is embarked upon will arrive at the same time as Mordrak. The only thing First to the Frey does as change which turn the arrival occurs on.

I’d like to see your reason why Mordrak cannot arrive from reserve in a vehicle he is embarked upon.

I'm waiting.

SJ

They do arrive on the same turn. Just not on turn one, because Mordrak can't use his First to the Fray ability on a unit he is not joined to. No rules are broken.

If the stormraven is a dedicated transport then I'd say yes to circumventing the no flyer on turn one rule, since however its bought apart from the unit an they do not need the stormraven to deepstrike i'd say no you can't circumvent the rule that states all flyers start in reserves.

I've read through this thread and there is a flaw in the initial arguement:

Mordrak does not have the Independent Character rule. If Ghost Knights are bought he is treated as an Upgrade Character for them (thus making them a retinue, not a seperate unit that he's joining). Mordrak can't join any unit because of this, flyer or otherwise. This is all outlined in page 40 of the Grey Knights codex.

Now on the other hand Independent Characters can join Mordrak, they would benefit from his rule, but again, flyers can't join Mordrak because it's not an independent character.

Further more the only time vehicles are a unit is when they are in a Squadron, which is formed with other vehicles (page 77 of the big rulebook). "Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model."

The Storm Raven doesn't have the Squadron rule and is thus, a unit of a single model.

Lastly on page 39 of the rulebook we see that Independent Characters can join other units, but not vehicle squadrons, or units that consist of single models (such as most vehicles or Monstrous Creatures).

So while Mordak can embark onto a Storm Raven, he can't join it as he doesn't have the Independent Character rule, and even if he did you can't form a unit with vehicles. This means that despite who is inside the Storm Raven it does not share rules with the models inside as they are not a single unit. The only exception to this sharing of rules is if a model specifically has a rule that affects vehicles, not just units they are joined too. Since Mordrak does not have a rule that affects any vehicle he is embarked in, he can not affect the Storm Raven with his FttF rule.

In conclusion I believe that if Mordrak and his Ghost Knight are embarked in a vehicle that is deep striking they do not use Mordrak's special rule as it is the Vehicle that is Deep Striking, not Mordrak. This is due in part to the fact that if Mordrak was deep striking he would be placed on the table, not the flyer (as per the Deep Strike rules (on page 36 in the rulebook).

And finally, a unit and a Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit (124 in the rulebook), but in the case of a unit in reserves and any other vehicle is only mentioned as "arriving together". This means they do not count as a singular unit for purposes of special rules that modify the way deployment would work. Since Mordrak can not buy a transport as a dedicated transport no transport counts as being a singular unit with him for the purposes of reserves. This would mean that a Deep Striking Storm Raven with Mordrak inside wouldn't use his Deep Strike rules (because he's embarked, doesn't form a unit with the transport and doesn't get placed on the board when placing him for the purposes of determining since the rules for being in a transport do not say that you form a unit with the vehicle, only that your inside of it), and FttF doesn't give operate permissively to say "vehicles".

So no, this combo doesn't work without GW giving us an FAQ from the Devs saying that it's supposed to (which would make that RAI not RAW).

Wow, the OP and Jeffersonion are great examples of the kind of player i hope I NEVER have to play. Hell, my first thought was that they were the same person since the OP disappeared and Jeffersonian came in white knighting his argument.

Rigeld, Nos, and others have repeatedly pointed out how you are incorrect within the realm of GW rules and you continue to carry on with the whole "your wrong, and I'm right, so nannie nannie boo boo" schtick.

ClockworkZion Seems to have eaten their wheaties this morning and have covered what seems to be every base left remotely open.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mock all you want, but none of you have posted a rebuttal as to why a unit in reserve would arrive over multiple turns. Because the only way for First to the Frey to not work is if you break the deployment from reserve rules. If Mordrak arrives on the same turn as the vehicle he is embarked upon, then the vehicle he is embarked upon will arrive at the same time as Mordrak. The only thing First to the Frey does as change which turn the arrival occurs on.

I’d like to see your reason why Mordrak cannot arrive from reserve in a vehicle he is embarked upon.

I'm waiting.

SJ

ClockworkZion wrote:
I've read through this thread and there is a flaw in the initial arguement:

Mordrak does not have the Independent Character rule. If Ghost Knights are bought he is treated as an Upgrade Character for them (thus making them a retinue, not a seperate unit that he's joining). Mordrak can't join any unit because of this, flyer or otherwise. This is all outlined in page 40 of the Grey Knights codex.

Now on the other hand Independent Characters can join Mordrak, they would benefit from his rule, but again, flyers can't join Mordrak because it's not an independent character.

Further more the only time vehicles are a unit is when they are in a Squadron, which is formed with other vehicles (page 77 of the big rulebook). "Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model."

The Storm Raven doesn't have the Squadron rule and is thus, a unit of a single model.

Lastly on page 39 of the rulebook we see that Independent Characters can join other units, but not vehicle squadrons, or units that consist of single models (such as most vehicles or Monstrous Creatures).

So while Mordak can embark onto a Storm Raven, he can't join it as he doesn't have the Independent Character rule, and even if he did you can't form a unit with vehicles. This means that despite who is inside the Storm Raven it does not share rules with the models inside as they are not a single unit. The only exception to this sharing of rules is if a model specifically has a rule that affects vehicles, not just units they are joined too. Since Mordrak does not have a rule that affects any vehicle he is embarked in, he can not affect the Storm Raven with his FttF rule.

In conclusion I believe that if Mordrak and his Ghost Knight are embarked in a vehicle that is deep striking they do not use Mordrak's special rule as it is the Vehicle that is Deep Striking, not Mordrak. This is due in part to the fact that if Mordrak was deep striking he would be placed on the table, not the flyer (as per the Deep Strike rules (on page 36 in the rulebook).

And finally, a unit and a Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit (124 in the rulebook), but in the case of a unit in reserves and any other vehicle is only mentioned as "arriving together". This means they do not count as a singular unit for purposes of special rules that modify the way deployment would work. Since Mordrak can not buy a transport as a dedicated transport no transport counts as being a singular unit with him for the purposes of reserves. This would mean that a Deep Striking Storm Raven with Mordrak inside wouldn't use his Deep Strike rules (because he's embarked, doesn't form a unit with the transport and doesn't get placed on the board when placing him for the purposes of determining since the rules for being in a transport do not say that you form a unit with the vehicle, only that your inside of it), and FttF doesn't give operate permissively to say "vehicles".

So no, this combo doesn't work without GW giving us an FAQ from the Devs saying that it's supposed to (which would make that RAI not RAW).

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
ClockworkZion Seems to have eaten their wheaties this morning and have covered what seems to be every base left remotely open.

Actually it was a Kashi cereal, but either way it was full of lots of fiber.

I tried to cover all the bases, but I'm sure someone will still find semantics to try and use to claim it'll work regardless. Or attack my post count on this board (this one being my second) which creates the appearance of being new (I'm not. I just lurk a lot). Either way I appreciate the nod, it's nice when you take the time to post a full argument and people notice it instead of skipping it because it has words instead of crayon drawings.

And just because I think I forgot to mention it (or if it's just not clear enough):

Embarking isn't the same as forming a unit. Embarking is riding inside of a transport. And unless you have a special rule that works from inside of a vehicle (by FAQ or being specifically mentioned as working that way (for example the Techmarine's Blessing of the Omnissiah which is permitted to work from inside a vehicle per FAQ)), you can't use your special rule from inside a vehicle. This goes for psychic powers, and rules like FttF. As such regardless of what your interpretation of how the model joins the vehicle, he can't affect it with the rule as it does not specifically mention it affecting any vehicles he's embarked on.

And since he's inside a vehicle his rules for Deep Striking aren't used for the same reason. Instead we use the Flyer's rules for Deep Striking which aren't affected by FttF (as previously mentioned) thus meaning it uses it's own rules instead (which follow the basic rules as outlined in the rulebook).

Now if GW puts out an FAQ that says otherwise, then fine, as FAQ trumps internet arguments. But as it stands there is nothing in the rules (which are permissive, not omissive, as in they restrict your actions by say what you can do, not by only saying what you can't) that actually supports this in the actual rules and thus it is not a legal option.

Now assuming that this is actually shut, I'm going back to my lurking, pending any response to my postings regarding this rule.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Mock all you want, but none of you have posted a rebuttal as to why a unit in reserve would arrive over multiple turns. Because the only way for First to the Frey to not work is if you break the deployment from reserve rules. If Mordrak arrives on the same turn as the vehicle he is embarked upon, then the vehicle he is embarked upon will arrive at the same time as Mordrak. The only thing First to the Frey does as change which turn the arrival occurs on.

I’d like to see your reason why Mordrak cannot arrive from reserve in a vehicle he is embarked upon.

I'm waiting.

SJ

It's already been explained, you're just ignoring it.
Mordrak cannot join the Flyer, therefore First to the Frey cannot apply if he's embarked.
Perhaps you should read the relevant rules instead of assuming you're right?

Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies? Accompany is a word used in the First to the Frey rule, so therefore it does exist in the 40k 6th edition rule set. I have challenged the assumption that a transport is not included in the First to the Frey special rule, as "any unit he accompanies" does in fact literally cover any unit Mordrak is grouped with. There is no rule in 6th edition that specifically states special rules cannot be used inside vehicles (transport bestow Fearless on passengers, for example), nor is there a rule that specifically states psychic powers cannot be used inside vehicles (although there are rules that specifically stated only witchfire powers maybe use to target models via fire ports). I am not the OP. And I have read the relevant rules, which do support the OP's position (although judging by some of the posts by others, they may not have even bothered to read the rules at all).

What I have not seen on this thread is any attempt to disprove my statements using the actual rules as written. I have read each response, which ranges from "you are wrong" to "any unit is singular" to "embarked is not accompanying" to “ this special rule does not work”. I have fully proven my position by RAW. Simply stating that I am wrong because accompany either equals joining or accompany does not equal joining is an opinion, not RAW. RAW supports units grouped together in reserve to arrive at the same time, in the same place, by a single reserve roll. First to the Frey is a special rule (Codex > BRB) that changes to order upon which Mordrak and any unit he accompanies (RAW supports all units arriving with Mordrak from reserve on the same reserve roll to be treated as a single unit for deployment purposes) to arrive on turn 1 without scatter if Mordrak is deep striking (Mordrak inside a vehicle that is deep striking is considered to be deep striking as Deep Striking rules apply to him just as they apply to the vehicle), no reserve roll required. The combination the OP proposed is legal and is fully supported by RAW. Each attempt to disprove this has ignored rules covering reserves and deployment from reserves, and has either hinged on what “any”, “unit”, and “accompany” means, or blatantly ignores the rules as written.

Calling me a troll, mocking me, and just stating that I am wrong does not disprove my posts. And for the record, I’m not posting because I support the tactic, I’m posting because it is legal and posters on this forum have taken a hard line against the tactic by ignoring the actual rules as they are written.

SJ

Mock you? Your taking a word and trying to twist the definition to fit your purposes. Yet, you say you are being mocked when we apply YOUR definitions in a broader context.

You have been shown to be wrong on just about every level of this rule, yet you ignore it, and selectively reply to arguments, avoiding the ones that outright disprove your claim. Your argument is simply restating the same stance.

Even your own statement. ""does in fact literally cover any unit Mordrak is grouped with."" disproves your stance.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies? Accompany is a word used in the First to the Frey rule, so therefore it does exist in the 40k 6th edition rule set.

Since ACCOMPANY is not defined in the 40k ruleset, RAW FttF never works. According to the Rules, ACCOMPANYING is not a thing any model can do.

We can argue English definitions all we want, but if the rules make no mention of ACCOMPANY then it has no meaning in the game of 40k.


It is the same as the rules debate about Vehicles and INV saves. RAW, Vehicles have INV saves they can use against Wounds, but no permission is given to use them against Glances or Pens. However, no one actually plays that RAW.

It is a similar issue here. ACCOMPANY is not defined by the 40k rulebook. Mordrak is unable to ACCOMPANY any unit, RAW. Therefore FttF never works.

I have challenged the assumption that a transport is not included in the First to the Frey special rule, as "any unit he accompanies" in fact literally cover any unit Mordrak is grouped with. There is no rule in 6th edition that specifically states special rules cannot be used inside vehicles (transport bestow Fearless on passengers, for example),

The bolded statement is irrelevant. the rules tell you what you CAN do not what you CANNOT.

Example: there is no rule saying that I cannot smash your models with hammer.


According to the strictest RAW, ACCOMPANY does not exist.

You can EMBARK in a Transport.
You can JOIN a unit,

You never "ACCOMPANY" anything.
RAW FttF never works.



================



List of the times the Word Accompany [or various forms] is used in the 40k rulebook

Introduction page
xviii under battles
138 Adeptus ministorum
159 organization
173 Roots of Corruption
192 Yarrick
232 Betrayal of Body
349 Teleport Attack

Please show that one of those instances [or an instance i did not find] gives you permission to ACCOMPANY a unit.


=======================


Lacking another definition for the word ACCOMPANY, most players assume that ACCOMPANY=JOIN [this is RAI, not RAW]


You have a different interpretation of the word ACCOMPANY in your version or RAI. [which states that ACCOMPANY = JOIN or EMBARKED in reserves]


As such there will not be any agreement on this issue until GW makes some sort of FAQ that further clarifiies the definition of Accompany in the ruleset of 40k.

And there lies why this is a doomed forum. You just stated First to the Frey can never work because GW failed to define the word "accompany". Bravo.

SJ

First to the fray requires the unit to be DS; he isnt, he is embarked in a vehicle that is DS; the unit that is DS is not Mordrak.

FttF doesnt activate, meaning it is yet another rule Jeff hasnt read.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
And there lies why this is a doomed forum. You just stated First to the Frey can never work because GW failed to define the word "accompany". Bravo.

SJ

The whole point of this sub-forum is to argue about the RAW.

It clearly states in the 40k rulesbook that you need to make some sort of agreement between the players in order to play the game. GW basically admits that it is impossible to play 40k with strict RAW.

By pointing out the rules issues like this one, where the GW rules are inconsistent or incomplete, we can help to prepare players. They should know what rules do and do not work RAW, so they are able to generate a set of Rules As Played that works for them and those they play with.

Additionally, I think that GW does have an ear to forums like this and others. In the past, GW has put out some FAQ answers that were remarkably similar to questions on this forum and from the INAT FAQ.


By pointing out the inconsistencies like this, I am helping other play the game, avoid potential arguments with no "Correct" answer, and hopefully improve the ruleset of the game in the future.


I am doing exactly what this forum was intended to do, and I am not ashamed of it at all.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies?

Mordrak can't convey this rule magically to a unit he's not joined to. The only way he can join a unit is by taking Ghost Knights (and he counts as an upgrade of them). To share this rule he needs to be part of the unit, otherwise he's working it alone. The only other way to claim that this rule would work is that the entire army benefits from it because he "accompanies" the army.

And that is frankly is ridicuious.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Accompany is a word used in the First to the Frey rule, so therefore it does exist in the 40k 6th edition rule set.

Technically true. It's not a word that's used to describe units, characters or independent characters.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I have challenged the assumption that a transport is not included in the First to the Frey special rule, as "any unit he accompanies" does in fact literally cover any unit Mordrak is grouped with.

As I quoted from the actual rulebook you can't join a model that isn't a vehicle to a vehicle. The only things that can form units with vehicles are vehicles when used in Squadrons. To share a rule with another model Mordrak needs to be in a unit (thus accompanying them since he would be with them). He can't join units (not an IC), and only creates a unit when he buys Ghost Knights. He doesn't accompany a vehicle since he can't form a unit with a vehicle.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is no rule in 6th edition that specifically states special rules cannot be used inside vehicles (transport bestow Fearless on passengers, for example),

Permissive ruleset. It tells you what you can do, not what you can't. Nowhere does the rulebook say you can use special rules from the inside of a vehicle.

The fearless rule is a specific rule granted by transports, regardless of the rules of the unit inside. It's granted by the transport, not the unit and thus doesn't support your arguement.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
nor is there a rule that specifically states psychic powers cannot be used inside vehicles (although there are rules that specifically stated only witchfire powers maybe use to target models via fire ports). I am not the OP. And I have read the relevant rules, which do support the OP's position (although judging by some of the posts by others, they may not have even bothered to read the rules at all).

You are confusing having a ruleset that specifically gives you permission to do things, and one that works by only telling you the things you can't do. 40K is the former, not the latter.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What I have not seen on this thread is any attempt to disprove my statements using the actual rules as written.

So taking rules in context of the actual books, posting page numbers and using them as supporting evidence wasn't using actual rules to support an arguement? I guess I forgot how this sort of thing works.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I have read each response, which ranges from "you are wrong" to "any unit is singular" to "embarked is not accompanying" to “ this special rule does not work”.

My "this special rule does not work" was a summary, not the entire post. I don't feel like drawing a flow chart in crayons so I'm not going to break it down for you again.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I have fully proven my position by RAW. Simply stating that I am wrong because accompany either equals joining or accompany does not equal joining is an opinion, not RAW. RAW supports units grouped together in reserve to arrive at the same time, in the same place, by a single reserve roll.

Yes it does, by putting one unit inside the other. When Deep Striking the Deep Striking unit is placed on the table and then scatter is rolled (unless some other rule trumps the scatter). When a unit is inside a transport and both unit and the transport have the Deep Strike rule, which are you putting on the table? If it's not the unit, you aren't using their Deep Strike rules.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
First to the Frey is a special rule (Codex > BRB) that changes to order upon which Mordrak and any unit he accompanies (RAW supports all units arriving with Mordrak from reserve on the same reserve roll to be treated as a single unit for deployment purposes) to arrive on turn 1 without scatter if Mordrak is deep striking (Mordrak inside a vehicle that is deep striking is considered to be deep striking as Deep Striking rules apply to him just as they apply to the vehicle), no reserve roll required. The combination the OP proposed is legal and is fully supported by RAW. Each attempt to disprove this has ignored rules covering reserves and deployment from reserves, and has either hinged on what “any”, “unit”, and “accompany” means, or blatantly ignores the rules as written.

RAW supports dedicated transports being a single unit, otherwise just mentioned as being a single roll. Storm Ravens aren't a dedicated transport (as it doesn't say that all transports form single units and the rule set is permissive, we can't assume that all do therefore they don't). To do otherwise is not RAW it's RAIIT (Rules as I Interpret Them). I quoted page numbers and rules supporting the fact that the OP's and your interpretation where not true RAW, showing that Mordrak can't form a unit with the Storm Raven because the rules don't explicitly state it. This isn't about precedent or implication, it's about what the rules say in pure black and white only.. I suggest you actually go back and read my entire post, read the things I said and read the things I referenced.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Calling me a troll, mocking me, and just stating that I am wrong does not disprove my posts. And for the record, I’m not posting because I support the tactic, I’m posting because it is legal and posters on this forum have taken a hard line against the tactic by ignoring the actual rules as they are written.

SJ

Discounting other people because they disagree with your narrow interpretation of the rules (which requires adding to the rules in a way that alters the way they are written) does not make them wrong. I'm not mocking you, nor am I picking on you. I posted strong evidence that you've ignored so I'll bring it all up again. If you still disagree, tough cookies. Your opinion is not fact, and your interpretation is not one that is supported by a pure RAW reading of the rules.

It comes down to this: for Mordrak's rule to work, he has to be the one Deep Striking. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a model that is embarked in the reserves may choose to Deep Strike out of that vehicle. And because the Deep Striking model must be placed on the table Mordrak can't Deep Strike once he's embarked. However, the transport he's in (again, the Storm Raven), can Deep Strike and can be placed. It is a separate unit that Mordrak (and maybe his Ghost Knights) are inside of. Because it's not a Dedicated Transport for Mordrak and his Phantom Crew the rules do not explicitly say (which is the crux of RAW, what the rules literally say, not what we extrapolate them to say) that it forms a unit with the models inside of it. Because of this we use the Deep Strike rules as they pertain to the Storm Raven which are not affected by FttF rule because nowhere in the rules (and that would be any of them) does it give explicit permission to use a rule that modifies when it can come in from inside the vehicle.

To argue otherwise is not RAW because there is not permission given in this permissive rule set to do so. It doesn't matter if "Mordrak" accompanies a unit in the Grey Knight book because neither the main rulebook nor the Grey Knights book explain how accompanying a unit works. And due to this lack of a definition set forth in the rules (no English Dictionary is the authority to set forth the definition for a ruleset as they are not the authorities of the rules, only the rules themselves hold that distinction) there is no RAW to claim that Mordrak inside of anything is "accompanying" it. Furthermore because there are no rules for "accompanying" anything Mordrak is instead effectively broken and apparently can't use his own rule due to the way the rules work.

So this is where we sit. Mordrak technically doesn't work because there are no rules for "accompanying" things.

Get an FAQ that says otherwise and you've got a leg to stand on. Otherwise your arguing an interpretation of the rules, not how they are actually written in black and white.

Now I've had to repeat myself again, there won't be a third time because we've just reached the only true logical conclusion of this "accompany" argument: Mordrak doesn't work. Congrats. You broke Grey Knights in a bad way. That's an achievement.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies? Accompany is a word used in the First to the Frey rule, so therefore it does exist in the 40k 6th edition rule set.

Now you must define it. Since it doesn't exist in rules outside FttF, we look at the English definition which is "to go with".
Please, quote this post and explain how "to go with" is not the same wording used for ICs joining a unit.

What I have not seen on this thread is any attempt to disprove my statements using the actual rules as written.

Bold lie. Please retract it.

Simply stating that I am wrong because accompany either equals joining or accompany does not equal joining is an opinion, not RAW.

Perhaps you're not familiar with the definition of RAW? Or you're somehow not familiar with the plain English definition of accompany, despite the fact that you keep using it and its been provided in the thread multiple times?

Each attempt to disprove this has ignored rules covering reserves and deployment from reserves, and has either hinged on what “any”, “unit”, and “accompany” means, or blatantly ignores the rules as written.

Yes, just as your position hinges on what the word "accompany" means, so does mine. One of those positions is actually supported by rules and has quoted them.

Calling me a troll, mocking me, and just stating that I am wrong does not disprove my posts. And for the record, I’m not posting because I support the tactic, I’m posting because it is legal and posters on this forum have taken a hard line against the tactic by ignoring the actual rules as they are written.

No, I haven't ignored any rules. Perhaps you'd like to finally attempt to disprove me? Or do you have me on ignore? Frankly that's about the only way you could possibly have not responded to my posts yet.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies?

Get an FAQ that says otherwise and you've got a leg to stand on. Otherwise your arguing an interpretation of the rules, not how they are actually written in black and white.

Now I've had to repeat myself again, there won't be a third time because we've just reached the only true logical conclusion of this "accompany" argument: Mordrak doesn't work. Congrats. You broke Grey Knights in a bad way. That's an achievement.

Nice, i gotta say, that was impressive. Thank you Clockwork, for that overwhelming rebuttal.

More so to the point, Mordrak does need to be Faq'd. His rule literally doesn't work in any fashion at all RAW, so like old Zogwort, I'll be shelving him for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


Calling me a troll, mocking me, and just stating that I am wrong does not disprove my posts. And for the record, I’m not posting because I support the tactic, I’m posting because it is legal and posters on this forum have taken a hard line against the tactic by ignoring the actual rules as they are written.

No, I haven't ignored any rules. Perhaps you'd like to finally attempt to disprove me? Or do you have me on ignore? Frankly that's about the only way you could possibly have not responded to my posts yet.

This has literally been his tactic all along....and to top it all off? read his original post in this thread....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dakka-daka has gone down hill as a source of good rule debating. This is not the first thread peeps on this forum have gone decidedly against a legal combination (as based on rule as written).

Mordark embarked on a transport is in fact "accompanying" the transport. Rules-wise, the two models are co-located. If the transport had firing ports, Mordrak could legally shoot his Stormbolter from that firing port. If Mordrak was not accompanying the transport, then he would not be able to legally fire his weapon from the port.

If a Strike Squad is embarked on a transport, we measure their Warp Quake from the hull of the vehicle. If the Strike Squad was not legally accompanying the transport, we would not be able to use Warp Quake at all while embarked.

These are to examples of units accompanying a transport. As such, if we follow Mordrak's First to the Frey special rule, all the is required is for Morkrak and every unit he is accompanying to be designated as deep striking. That's it. Mordrak in a Stormraven that are designated as deep striking will, by the rules as written, arrive on turn 1 without scatter. This is legal because the rules make it legal.

Debating what the word "accompany" means is a debating technique to disregard an argument by focuing on a word rather than the actual issue.

SJ

No page references, makes up a rule about transports and strike squads, makes up rules for "accompanying" and then tries to defend himself by literally saying if you debate the meaning of "accompany" you aren't focusing on the actual issue, which is that accompany doesn't have any actual value in 40k from a RAW perspective.
This is either the worst debater on the planet, or one of the most stubborn trolls i've ever dealt with. Which is an entertaining idea, because i actually enjoy stupid people, so i'm winning in the end.

Isn't it Fray, not Frey?

He's been spelling it wrong this entire time while standing on top of his pedestal of intellect.

Unless, of course, you mean some Norse Goddess of Fertility, in which case, carry on.

Of course, I'm just nitpicking, but I think this entire argument is stupid, and rests upon words that aren't even used in the rulebook/codex.

Neronoxx wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where does it say in First to the Frey that Mordrak must be joined to a unit he accompanies?

Get an FAQ that says otherwise and you've got a leg to stand on. Otherwise your arguing an interpretation of the rules, not how they are actually written in black and white.

Now I've had to repeat myself again, there won't be a third time because we've just reached the only true logical conclusion of this "accompany" argument: Mordrak doesn't work. Congrats. You broke Grey Knights in a bad way. That's an achievement.

Nice, i gotta say, that was impressive. Thank you Clockwork, for that overwhelming rebuttal.

More so to the point, Mordrak does need to be Faq'd. His rule literally doesn't work in any fashion at all RAW, so like old Zogwort, I'll be shelving him for a while.

Thanks, I think! I hate that I had to take their own conclusions to that extreme, but it was the only true outcome of harping on how their was no definition of "accompany" by the game rules, thus Mordrak can't give his rule to anyone else.

He's not nearly as broken as he seems, he only falls apart when you start taking "accompany" to mean anything other than "Mordrak, his Ghost Knights and the ICs that are tagging along". Most people see him this way, it's only when people try to twist the meaning of "accompany" to mean "Mordrak and the entire army of Grey Knights he's a part of" that it really falls apart. Your average person won't complain about it, and if you broach the problem with a TO before a tournament and establish a common ruling there shouldn't be an issue. And I don't think I know of any TO that would say "yes" to the "turn 1 Deepstrike a Storm Raven into your opponent's line, have it Zooming, and get to kill their important stuff without even risking scatter" interpretation.

Either way this whole thread got so silly I sent an email into the GW FAQ address along with an explanation of the problem, and the questions that came up, as well as the answers most of us had, and the ones that were being proposed that bent the spirit of the game over a desk and railed it from behind.

I normally just do this quietly from time to time when threads get heated, but this was one of those threads where you see people making good points and someone wearing a dunce cap running around wearing only a thin coat of fecal matter with their fingers in their ears going "I'M NOT LISTENING!".

Crazyterran wrote:


Of course, I'm just nitpicking, but I think this entire argument is stupid, and rests upon words that aren't even used in the rulebook/codex.

Kinda been my point for a while....

The thread is going around in circles at this point and has gotten a bit hostile and unfriendly.

I think the question's been adequately answered, too.

Locking.