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Still Standing wrote:

Spoiler:

That's how they looked in RT, but I think ever since the big revamp in 2E they have been presented with a more "standard" color scheme.

But thinking about it, it's still good you posted it. Lack of a canon policy means that people are free to pick what they want for their Marines, which could very well be RT-era colours, or even a camo design of the player's own choosing.
I'm still somewhat stuck in the "most current GW source trumps all" thinking, so occasionally I need a little hint that I should stop assuming everyone operates on the same level.

It is a RT era scheme, but as it says it's a camouflage variant. There are canon examples of other camo variants too, such as the Badab War variants.

 Red_Starrise wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

Isn't Necromunda an example of this not being the case though? Necromunda had a very famous regiment in 2nd Ed fluff, the Spiders, who fought to a man to ensure the safety of evac birds IIRC. Additionally, the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda underhive gangs.

The Ultramarines bother me in that all of their fluff is very contradictory to the "official" word of Rowboat Girlyman but yet they like to throw their weight around against others who don't follow it. They're quite the Nazis.

As to the idea, I don't see why it's not do-able. Maybe a combined arms campaign force. I know it's not uncommon during campaigns for SM commanders to take command of IG. In fact, Grimnar did this for the... 2nd war for Armageddon. So perhaps an IG company that operates in conjunction with a SM detachment frequently might start adopting some of their symbolism & iconography. I don't know if it's canon or not for guardsmen to receive any honorary awards from Chaplains but I know that SM of non-codex chapters can earn such & vice-versa (such as SW bestowing Fenrisian honors on an allied SM who fought valiantly alongside them). And there could be aspiring Space Marines in a "whiteshield" platoon on a planet that is known head hunting ground for a certain chapter since they're youth soldiers.

From the artwork created for the spyders, they have no link to the Imperial Fists. This is probably due to the fact that while the IF have recruitment rights on necromunda the planet is not under their control.

Fluff dictates a chapter can't control large numbers of IG so a regiment cannot mimic the colors of a sm chapter controlling them because the chapter isn't supposed to be controlling them.

If on the other hand a space marine chapter's recruiting world had a population of 10 billion + then a single planet/system could support an entire space marine chapter and the space marine chapter could if they chose to fly the colors of the planet/IG regiments they were recruited from. The marines and guard are 2 totally separate organizations that just happen to have a common heritage. It also means most of the time they wouldn't be working together as the marines and ig would be likely to be deployed in different systems, but if a recruiting world came under attack...

 schadenfreude wrote:
Fluff dictates a chapter can't control large numbers of IG so a regiment cannot mimic the colors of a sm chapter controlling them because the chapter isn't supposed to be controlling them...

Why does same wardrobe imply control... And since when have all SM chapters cared about following all the rules.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 Red_Starrise wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

Isn't Necromunda an example of this not being the case though? Necromunda had a very famous regiment in 2nd Ed fluff, the Spiders, who fought to a man to ensure the safety of evac birds IIRC. Additionally, the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda underhive gangs.

The Ultramarines bother me in that all of their fluff is very contradictory to the "official" word of Rowboat Girlyman but yet they like to throw their weight around against others who don't follow it. They're quite the Nazis.

As to the idea, I don't see why it's not do-able. Maybe a combined arms campaign force. I know it's not uncommon during campaigns for SM commanders to take command of IG. In fact, Grimnar did this for the... 2nd war for Armageddon. So perhaps an IG company that operates in conjunction with a SM detachment frequently might start adopting some of their symbolism & iconography. I don't know if it's canon or not for guardsmen to receive any honorary awards from Chaplains but I know that SM of non-codex chapters can earn such & vice-versa (such as SW bestowing Fenrisian honors on an allied SM who fought valiantly alongside them). And there could be aspiring Space Marines in a "whiteshield" platoon on a planet that is known head hunting ground for a certain chapter since they're youth soldiers.

From the artwork created for the spyders, they have no link to the Imperial Fists. This is probably due to the fact that while the IF have recruitment rights on necromunda the planet is not under their control.

The Imperial Fists recruit from any planet they want. I am sure there are some places they don't go so as to not step on the toes of some of the other Chapters but it's a big Galaxy... But they are a great chapter to consider in this regard. Also consider that Terra is the "Home" of the Imperial Fists and the Adeptus Custodes, (the standing Army of the Imperial Palace) have an almost identical color scheme, the Custodes is a little bit more like Gold then Yellow but the similarity is there so... possible I certainly think it would be possible. It is also possible that since much Imperial iconography is liberally spread around it would make it more than likely that on a SM Planet that the PDF would wear iconography similiar in nature. (As mentioned before look at the PDF of Ultramar.)

 Lobukia wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Fluff dictates a chapter can't control large numbers of IG so a regiment cannot mimic the colors of a sm chapter controlling them because the chapter isn't supposed to be controlling them...

Why does same wardrobe imply control... And since when have all SM chapters cared about following all the rules.

I guess it's a debate about the fine details about imperial doctrines that can best be settled in the most diplomatic way possible, burn anyone who disagrees with you at the stake.

If you want to make your Marines and guard match, go crazy. Heck, the simplest backstory for them is that they are assigned to work together and just happen to have similar heraldry and colouring, or the guard takes up the marines heraldry and colouring, or something like that.

As a note though, your idea of having the Guardsmen be aspiring marines does not fly unless you want your guard to consist of pre-teens (and I suspect that child soldiers are rare, even in the Imperium). The process to transform an individual into a Space Marine requires that they begin during puberty, otherwise the process will be non-successful at best, fatal at worst.

From a fluff standpoint, I could see IG and SM sharing the same symbol or icon but I think IG generally go for a functional camo depending on what environment they are in (like IRL armed forces) while the Space Marines are more about flashy colors and representing their chapter. I don't think IG would last long in some xenos jungle if they were wearing bright yellow to match their Imperial Fists SM brothers for example .

If you don't care that much about the fluff then go crazy and paint your IG bright pink if you want to. It's all up to you really.

Still Standing wrote:It is a RT era scheme, but as it says it's a camouflage variant. There are canon examples of other camo variants too, such as the Badab War variants.

It ultimately comes down whether you truly believe that Space Marine Chapters repaint their armour every month, or even have multiple suits per Marine to wear depending on the area they fight on. Personally, due to the absence of such images ever since RT and from all the images we have seen of Imperial forces ever since, I just don't think it applies to "contemporary" SM, but as with all fluff it's merely a matter of opinion and personal preferences. Just like whether this SC is still legit or not.

I have a way of approaching the lack of consistency between modern GW, RT GW and current Forgeworld GW. I regard all of the different fluff sources as being just one version of the "truth" that exists. (Of course, that truth is also different for everyone). This is in the same way that historians present lots of different versions of the truth, and entertainers present even more versions. For example, there are lots of versions of the tale of Spartacus, or King Arthur, or even more recently the Wild West. Whilst you have sources you can turn to, you really have to make up your own mind which version you prefer.

So, whilst I don't like to needlessly contradict modern fluff, RT fluff, or Forgeworld fluff, I choose the bits I like, embellish them, and go from there. I would not want to re-imagine Spartacus as a woman, and I don't like female space marines. I don't think it likely King Arthur was a black man, so I don't arbitrarily make him one, nor do I turn my coal-black Salamanders into Africans for no good reason (on the other hand, Jesus, if he existed, was almost certainly black, or at least darker than your typical Euro-stock, and no-one seems to mind that bit of revisionism). I don't think Billy the Kid used an assault cannon, and my non-Terminator marines don't use them either...

As a result, if you want marines in camo gear, good for you. If you want to make up a small regiment of Imperial Guard who have no further opportunity to recruit, and are thus almost extinguished, and have therefore thrown in with a marine chapter until their inevitable demise, good for you. If you want to have a pdf from a marine homeworld, good for you. If you want to paint your marines pink and purple and your IG purple and pink, good for you. (Personally I think it would look revolting, and I am glad you haven't said you want to do that, but hey, if anyone out there likes the idea, go for it!)

Balls to the naysayers!

 dalsiandon wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 Red_Starrise wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

Isn't Necromunda an example of this not being the case though? Necromunda had a very famous regiment in 2nd Ed fluff, the Spiders, who fought to a man to ensure the safety of evac birds IIRC. Additionally, the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda underhive gangs.

The Ultramarines bother me in that all of their fluff is very contradictory to the "official" word of Rowboat Girlyman but yet they like to throw their weight around against others who don't follow it. They're quite the Nazis.

As to the idea, I don't see why it's not do-able. Maybe a combined arms campaign force. I know it's not uncommon during campaigns for SM commanders to take command of IG. In fact, Grimnar did this for the... 2nd war for Armageddon. So perhaps an IG company that operates in conjunction with a SM detachment frequently might start adopting some of their symbolism & iconography. I don't know if it's canon or not for guardsmen to receive any honorary awards from Chaplains but I know that SM of non-codex chapters can earn such & vice-versa (such as SW bestowing Fenrisian honors on an allied SM who fought valiantly alongside them). And there could be aspiring Space Marines in a "whiteshield" platoon on a planet that is known head hunting ground for a certain chapter since they're youth soldiers.

From the artwork created for the spyders, they have no link to the Imperial Fists. This is probably due to the fact that while the IF have recruitment rights on necromunda the planet is not under their control.

The Imperial Fists recruit from any planet they want. I am sure there are some places they don't go so as to not step on the toes of some of the other Chapters but it's a big Galaxy... But they are a great chapter to consider in this regard. Also consider that Terra is the "Home" of the Imperial Fists and the Adeptus Custodes, (the standing Army of the Imperial Palace) have an almost identical color scheme, the Custodes is a little bit more like Gold then Yellow but the similarity is there so... possible I certainly think it would be possible. It is also possible that since much Imperial iconography is liberally spread around it would make it more than likely that on a SM Planet that the PDF would wear iconography similiar in nature. (As mentioned before look at the PDF of Ultramar.)

A. The IF recruit from specific worlds, they do not have the rights to go to a planet, invade its airspace and take children. All that would do is get inquisitors being called.
B. The IF and custodes do not share a colour scheme, the IF are yellow, the custodes were none painted armour (although now were very little armour).
C. Most space marine hereldry is not IoM related.
D. As in all discussions ultramar cannot be used as an example due to the fact that it holds a unique place in fluff and is not like any chapter's domain.
E. There is a large difference between PDF (locally controlled and maintained armed forces) and the IG (controlled and owned by Terra)

BluntmanDC wrote:The IF recruit from specific worlds, they do not have the rights to go to a planet, invade its airspace and take children. All that would do is get inquisitors being called.

Indeed. In the case of Necromunda, it was the local government that offered up their world's people as recruits as a way of thanking the Imperial Fists for winning a major battle against the Orks on this world. There was a very recommendable Index Astartes article that mentioned this in passing (online copy here).

Ultimately, Astartes recruitment zones need to be sanctioned by the Imperium, given that all these worlds still belong to the Emperor. One could say it's a piece of the "stand apart" deal the Marines have going on - and as the example of the Relictors' former homeworld shows, the IoM can not only grant recruitment rights but also take them away again.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 dalsiandon wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 Red_Starrise wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

Isn't Necromunda an example of this not being the case though? Necromunda had a very famous regiment in 2nd Ed fluff, the Spiders, who fought to a man to ensure the safety of evac birds IIRC. Additionally, the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda underhive gangs.
...
From the artwork created for the spyders, they have no link to the Imperial Fists. This is probably due to the fact that while the IF have recruitment rights on necromunda the planet is not under their control.

The Imperial Fists recruit from any planet they want. I am sure there are some places they don't go so as to not step on the toes of some of the other Chapters but it's a big Galaxy... But they are a great chapter to consider in this regard. Also consider that Terra is the "Home" of the Imperial Fists and the Adeptus Custodes, (the standing Army of the Imperial Palace) have an almost identical color scheme, the Custodes is a little bit more like Gold then Yellow but the similarity is there so... possible I certainly think it would be possible. It is also possible that since much Imperial iconography is liberally spread around it would make it more than likely that on a SM Planet that the PDF would wear iconography similiar in nature. (As mentioned before look at the PDF of Ultramar.)

A. The IF recruit from specific worlds, they do not have the rights to go to a planet, invade its airspace and take children. All that would do is get inquisitors being called.
B. The IF and custodes do not share a colour scheme, the IF are yellow, the custodes were none painted armour (although now were very little armour).
C. Most space marine hereldry is not IoM related.
D. As in all discussions ultramar cannot be used as an example due to the fact that it holds a unique place in fluff and is not like any chapter's domain.
E. There is a large difference between PDF (locally controlled and maintained armed forces) and the IG (controlled and owned by Terra)

 Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:The IF recruit from specific worlds, they do not have the rights to go to a planet, invade its airspace and take children. All that would do is get inquisitors being called.

Indeed. In the case of Necromunda, it was the local government that offered up their world's people as recruits as a way of thanking the Imperial Fists for winning a major battle against the Orks on this world. There was a very recommendable Index Astartes article that mentioned this in passing (online copy here).

Ultimately, Astartes recruitment zones need to be sanctioned by the Imperium, given that all these worlds still belong to the Emperor. One could say it's a piece of the "stand apart" deal the Marines have going on - and as the example of the Relictors' former homeworld shows, the IoM can not only grant recruitment rights but also take them away again.

Not arguing with you guys

A) I based my remark off this from the Lexicanum and from the 40K wikki for the Imperial Fists under recruitment: This is the first sentence from the Lexicanum.

The Imperial Fists take their potential recruits from many worlds, among which are Terra, Necromunda and Inwit. On each of these worlds they maintain a Chapter keep. However they have no special rights as to where they recruit their neophytes.

So if they have no special rights as to where they recruit then what is to prevent them for going where ever they wish and setting up a recruiting station aside from the considerations of other forces of the IoM?

And this is from the 40K wikki page under recruitment. Here it adds they maintain a chapel but have no political rights to a world.

The Imperial Fists take their potential recruits from many worlds, among which are Terra, and the Hive Worlds of Necromunda and Inwit. On each of these worlds they maintain a Chapter recruitment fortress-chapel. However, the Imperial Fists have no special political rights on the worlds where they recruit their Neophytes as other Chapters do.

So it's likely that the Imperial Fists can have a far more extensive recruiting network than most of the other Chapters.

to address B) As for the Adeptus Custodes wearing unpainted armour, I believe that is the Grey Knights. Of course the article says that they have changed their colors from red to black so it is possible they have adjusted. But this is just one of many images to the Custodes and that looks like a Gold color to me...

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/8/82/Custodes_terminators.jpg

C) The Imperial Eagle is the ultimate example IoM iconography and the SM use it just as much as all of the rest of them. All the skulls and cross bones, those are not exclusive to one group of the IoM or another. The heraldry of the SM is very chapter specific but then you have multiple Chapters with shared history and iconography and heraldry.

D) Fair enough, but it leaves a precedent for the possibility to exist elsewhere.

E) Again true. So if it's a PDF force on a SM vassal planet then why wouldn't they share some heraldry or iconography. It stands to reason that they would/could. After all PDF comes across as a National Guard type of military force as opposed to the frontline IG units so the Uniforms could be less functional in color schemes.

So for the OP to make a guard unit to match his Marines I see no reason why not. But thats just my reasoning on it.

dalsiandon wrote:I based my remark off this from the Lexicanum and from the 40K wikki for the Imperial Fists under recruitment: This is the first sentence from the Lexicanum.
The Imperial Fists take their potential recruits from many worlds, among which are Terra, Necromunda and Inwit. On each of these worlds they maintain a Chapter keep. However they have no special rights as to where they recruit their neophytes.
So if they have no special rights as to where they recruit then what is to prevent them for going where ever they wish and setting up a recruiting station aside from the considerations of other forces of the IoM?

Of course they have "special rights". They wouldn't be allowed to draw recruits from Necromunda if the government there had not "consented" (this is the wording from GW's Index Astartes article) to it. The whole purpose of Astartes fiefs is to grant a Chapter a semi-independent base of operations from where they can tithe replacements for manpower and equipment without interfering with the rest of the Imperium, whilst simultaneously being dispersed all across Imperial space to ensure a certain degree of coverage/availability. A Marine Chapter just doing what they want and randomly claiming Imperial resources without asking would sooner or later draw the attention of either the High Lords or the Ordo Hereticus.

That's not to say that they would often receive a positive answer when they ask (see Necromunda), or that Imperial retribution against a "rogue" Marine Chapter would happen swiftly (bureaucracy, red tape, interstellar communication delays, etc), but it's not like they could officially just do what they want. The Imperium cares little for what happens on planets already assigned to Astartes care as they essentially become sovereign satellite-states (much like Mechanicus Forge Worlds), but any sort of interaction between a Chapter and an Imperial world will be governed by certain rules.

Also, as usual in such discussions, I will point out that it's always better to look up the sources yourself (I've already linked a copy of the Index Astartes article in an earlier post) rather than relying to a fan wiki. Lack of canon in 40k means that not all sources are meant to co-exist (Custodes looks is another such example, since you already mentioned it), yet both wikis you mentioned try to mix everything together depending on the individual editor's personal interpretation. Ultimately, this can falsify the impression the various books actually attempted to convey.

dalsiandon wrote:So for the OP to make a guard unit to match his Marines I see no reason why not.

Technically, it could be PDF auxiliaries using the IG Codex, so in a way ... yeah, why not.

The good thing about this subject is that OP must not even care about what the Imperium's laws dictate. Even if it's not officially allowed, who cares? It'll take decades until anyone notices, and any consequences will become questionable in the usual web of internal politics, depending on the Chapter's standing with certain factions and powerful individuals. It's not like there is not a single other Marine Chapter that is in clear breach of some Imperial decree, even amongst GW's own creations.

dalsiandon wrote:to address B) As for the Adeptus Custodes wearing unpainted armour, I believe that is the Grey Knights. Of course the article says that they have changed their colors from red to black so it is possible they have adjusted. But this is just one of many images to the Custodes and that looks like a Gold color to me

.

There is a difference between pre and post heresy custodes, pre heresy custodes wore METALLIC colour armour (unpainted), the custodes now were leather for the most part. Yellow paint is very different from gold coloured metal.

C) The Imperial Eagle is the ultimate example IoM iconography and the SM use it just as much as all of the rest of them. All the skulls and cross bones, those are not exclusive to one group of the IoM or another. The heraldry of the SM is very chapter specific but then you have multiple Chapters with shared history and iconography and heraldry.

All the examples you have given are just generic IoM symbols and not space marine hereldry (chapter symbols), seeing as most IG regiments carry standard IoM iconography so its a bit pointless.

D) Fair enough, but it leaves a precedent for the possibility to exist elsewhere.

But it doesn't create a precedent, that is the whole point, not even other first founding chapters have the political clout of the Ultramarines. Ultramar covers a massive area of space. No other chapter would get away with controlling such a large and productive area of space.

E) Again true. So if it's a PDF force on a SM vassal planet then why wouldn't they share some heraldry or iconography. It stands to reason that they would/could. After all PDF comes across as a National Guard type of military force as opposed to the frontline IG units so the Uniforms could be less functional in color

But that again isn't the point, the question asked was about IG units not PDF.