Poll |
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Can Zombies man the Quad Gun? |
Yes they can |
 
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65% |
[ 51 ] |
No they cannot |
 
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35% |
[ 27 ] |
Total Votes : 78 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 18:22:17
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
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The Plague Zombie rules says they are Chaos Cultists w Fearless, FNP, Slow and Purposeful, no options, and just a close combat weapon. However it does not say they lack a BS, that is, they don't have different stats listed with a BS of 0. Nor did the little FAQ mention anything about them not having a BS, but we know their autopistols are just clubs.
So what are people's opinions of them manning a Quad Gun? I would vote yes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 18:24:39
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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the rules are just that any ranged weapons they are armed with cannot be shot. There are not forbidden from manning Gun Emplacements or Emplaced Guns.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 18:25:35
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Fixture of Dakka
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If the rules don't prohibit them explicity from shooting, then they can still fire the quad-gun. From my recollection (don't have my codex with me right now), I don't believe it says that they can't shoot, just that they use their autoguns if any as clubs (and this was just a justification for them carrying guns on the actual models).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 19:27:50
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Nope not in the conventional sense; though they may decide to use it in close combat...
Zombie:
"...- any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!"
Quadgun:
"Gun Emplacement...
Emplaced Weapons:
One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/28 19:30:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 19:29:11
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Neorealist wrote:Nope not in the conventional sense; though they may decide to use it in close combat...
Zombie:
"...- any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!"
Quadgun:
"Gun Emplacement...
What you quoted for the Zombies is just fluff.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 19:32:29
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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It's listed in Typhus' rules text and is in a block of rules text itself and therefore valid for this discussion. Regardless of how 'fluffy' it might otherwise be considered.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/28 19:34:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 19:33:12
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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But its still not the actual rules themselves. The actual rule is that they can't shoot the guns they are armed with, nothing more.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 19:35:15
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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The literal word of the rules text i quoted indicates they cannot fire 'any' guns, not just their own. The burden of proof is on you to indicate how that particular section of their rules is somehow disqualified from being used because it can be considered flavourful in addition to a literal rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 20:21:16
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Do they have a BS?, then they have permission to fire the Quad.
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DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 21:40:10
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Lobukia wrote:Do they have a BS?, then they have permission to fire the Quad.
More precise would be "do they have a BS of 1 or higher". You can HAVE a BS of zero, but that doesn't give you permission to fire it.
Consequently, if a model has no ranged weapons then how does it fire the quad gun "instead of it's own weapon"?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 21:50:25
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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Kevin949 wrote: Lobukia wrote:Do they have a BS?, then they have permission to fire the Quad.
More precise would be "do they have a BS of 1 or higher". You can HAVE a BS of zero, but that doesn't give you permission to fire it.
Consequently, if a model has no ranged weapons then how does it fire the quad gun "instead of it's own weapon"?
How do you run without a gun?
Models have permission to make shooting attacks, regardless of their armament. It is their BS that matters primarily.
Its still odd to see a bunch of zombies hitting a turret with autoguns until they finally hit the trigger and fire off an anticlimatic burst of lead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 21:54:22
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Neorealist wrote:The literal word of the rules text i quoted indicates they cannot fire ' any' guns, not just their own. The burden of proof is on you to indicate how that particular section of their rules is somehow disqualified from being used because it can be considered flavourful in addition to a literal rule.
Grey Templar is correct. That it just a fluffy explanation of the rule and Phil giving us some imagery. It isn't part of the actual rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 22:01:10
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Neronoxx wrote: Kevin949 wrote: Lobukia wrote:Do they have a BS?, then they have permission to fire the Quad.
More precise would be "do they have a BS of 1 or higher". You can HAVE a BS of zero, but that doesn't give you permission to fire it.
Consequently, if a model has no ranged weapons then how does it fire the quad gun "instead of it's own weapon"?
How do you run without a gun?
Models have permission to make shooting attacks, regardless of their armament. It is their BS that matters primarily.
Its still odd to see a bunch of zombies hitting a turret with autoguns until they finally hit the trigger and fire off an anticlimatic burst of lead.
Running just says "you can run instead of firing". Gun Emplacements says "may fire it instead of their own weapon." Do you see the difference here?
Mind you, I'm also just playing devil's advocate, but I am personally on the side of zombies not being allowed to use it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/28 22:03:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 23:23:40
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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I would say it is reasonably understandable that they were intended when created to only be close combat units
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/28 23:27:08
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Fireknife Shas'el
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I believe the quote about them having guns just to use as clubs was just trying to give permission to run the cultist with CCW and autopistol as a dual CCW zombie. Or even the autogun zombie.
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 03:44:30
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
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I think the first question is what is the BS of Zombies. The answer must be BS3, as their rules state they are Cultists, and does not provide different stats from a Cultist, just the Fearless, FNP, SnP. So from that perspective they could fire a Quad Gun.
The next question is regarding the sentence "They are armed with a single close combat weapon-any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!".....so the models themselves do not have a gun/shooting attack. But of course the Gun Emplacement rule states "One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting."
In the Gun Emplacement rule, does the word weapon mean any weapon or just a shooting weapon? Are we to assume they meant a shooting weapon? They did not specify. So then does this mean a Lord or Champion with 2 Melee weapons, or Possessed, or a Daemon Prince, would also not be able to man the Quad Gun? Some people are assuming because they are lowly zombies they are too stupid to fire a Quad Gun, but is a Daemon Prince too stupid for it? That's just racist. Even in Land of the Dead the lead zombie learned to fire a machine gun! Shooting rights should be protected for all models with a BS, which I think is not at issue here.
My verdict stands, zombies can man the Quad Gun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 03:47:55
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Kevin949 wrote:
Running just says "you can run instead of firing". Gun Emplacements says "may fire it instead of their own weapon." Do you see the difference here?
Mind you, I'm also just playing devil's advocate, but I am personally on the side of zombies not being allowed to use it.
A TH/ SS armed Terminator can fire the Gun Emplacement, even though it has no ranged weapons of its own right?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 08:25:38
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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phantommaster wrote:Grey Templar is correct. That it just a fluffy explanation of the rule and Phil giving us some imagery. It isn't part of the actual rule.
People keep saying this. My response is: "Where in any published 40k rule books are you getting the precident for this inference from?" What makes "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." any more or less valid rules-text than "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..." or any other passage from their particular block of rules for that matter?
It's from the same freaking paragraph. That is akin to choosing to say "well, it's just fluff-text that your zombies are fearless, et all, i'm going to ignore that in favour of them not having any stats whatsoever." and having any expectations of people not ignoring me? My hypothetical statement has the exact same rules-adherance as the unsubstantiated opinions i'm currently reading in this thread that share the theme of the above quote so far as i can tell, so i'm very interested in someone indicating 'why' they think it's just fluff. (if possible, in some sort of rules-validated way)
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/29 08:37:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 15:45:36
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Neorealist wrote:phantommaster wrote:Grey Templar is correct. That it just a fluffy explanation of the rule and Phil giving us some imagery. It isn't part of the actual rule.
People keep saying this. My response is: "Where in any published 40k rule books are you getting the precident for this inference from?" What makes "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." any more or less valid rules-text than "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..." or any other passage from their particular block of rules for that matter?
It's from the same freaking paragraph. That is akin to choosing to say "well, it's just fluff-text that your zombies are fearless, et all, i'm going to ignore that in favour of them not having any stats whatsoever." and having any expectations of people not ignoring me? My hypothetical statement has the exact same rules-adherance as the unsubstantiated opinions i'm currently reading in this thread that share the theme of the above quote so far as i can tell, so i'm very interested in someone indicating 'why' they think it's just fluff. (if possible, in some sort of rules-validated way)
I agree that " guns" refers to something effecting rules. But you have to know that "guns" is also referring to those things in their hands, not a Quad gun sitting out on the battlefield. Context matters. Rules on personal equipment do not equate rules for interacting with battlefield terrain.
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DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 16:10:42
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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My 2 perspectives
RAW, looks like they can. Not worth arguing over imo.
RAI appears they shouldn't be able to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 17:36:10
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Lobukia wrote: I agree that " guns" refers to something effecting rules. But you have to know that "guns" is also referring to those things in their hands, not a Quad gun sitting out on the battlefield. Context matters. Rules on personal equipment do not equate rules for interacting with battlefield terrain.
I don't really see where you are finding this either. Not a single one of the rules from their rules-text (so far as i can tell) only refers to a weapon they are holding as opposed to "...any guns..." like it explicitly states.
I get it, really: Zombies using their neglected stubbers and autoguns as makeshift clubs to thump some poor sod to death is quite 'fluffy'. Regretably for this POV however, we actually should follow the rules written in their writeup when determining how they can be used in the game as to do otherwise is to ignore at least one of their rules.
As written: they cannot use any guns as anything other than a CCW, and a quad-gun is most definately a gun. This needs to be disproven using actual rules, not arbitrarily dismissed as pointless flavour text with no more veracy than someone's personal opinion on the topic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/29 17:36:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 20:40:50
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:My 2 perspectives
RAW, looks like they can. Not worth arguing over imo.
RAI appears they shouldn't be able to.
This is exactly the simple answer we need.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 20:45:10
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Neorealist wrote:phantommaster wrote:Grey Templar is correct. That it just a fluffy explanation of the rule and Phil giving us some imagery. It isn't part of the actual rule.
People keep saying this. My response is: "Where in any published 40k rule books are you getting the precident for this inference from?" What makes "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." any more or less valid rules-text than "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..." or any other passage from their particular block of rules for that matter?
Quote the whole passage for "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." and you will see the context of any guns refers to the guns equipped on the models in question.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 21:45:20
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Uh huh. this part you mean? "...They are armed with a single close combat weapon..." Which does not appear to reference guns at all?
Or perhaps it's the part of their rules text that indicates they are cultists, but cannot select any options? or is the 'Feel No Pain' part of it? Throw me a bone here and actually quote the mysterious but critical part of the rules-text that makes your arguments actually make sense in the context of the words printed on the page as opposed to whatever opinion you happen to have formed instead?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/29 21:46:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/29 23:48:16
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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So what are they armed with again?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/30 00:07:33
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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What possible difference does that make?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/30 00:46:30
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Because the "Rule", if you can call it that, is referencing the guns that the zombies are armed with.
Not any external weapons they may come into contact with.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/30 00:59:37
Subject: Re:Zombies and Quad Gun
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. You cannot 'reference' something by inference, it's more or less the exact opposite.
In this case, the RAW for the zombies' rules-text does not actually list nor explicitly discuss the cultists' default weapons like you appear to believe. Instead, you see a very simple and clear "...all guns..." as the sole explicit indication of what weapons it is actually 'referencing'.
So at the risk of sounding redundant: please respond with some sort of actual rule which supports your contention, not yet another example of something you have yet to prove conclusively.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/30 03:35:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/30 08:35:02
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Neorealist wrote:phantommaster wrote:Grey Templar is correct. That it just a fluffy explanation of the rule and Phil giving us some imagery. It isn't part of the actual rule.
People keep saying this. My response is: "Where in any published 40k rule books are you getting the precident for this inference from?" What makes "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." any more or less valid rules-text than "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..." or any other passage from their particular block of rules for that matter?
Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/30 09:34:31
Subject: Zombies and Quad Gun
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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I think they can fire it just fine, if we argue that because they have no weapons of their own to fire and thus cannot fire the gun then a terminator with a thunder hammer and storm shield cannot fire the gun...but unless there are some rules I haven't seen, they can indeed still man the gun even though they themselves do not have any ranged weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/30 09:34:50
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