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I'm trying to start a new CSM army, probably mostly chosen (their models look the best, or at least the DV ones do), but the problem I'm seeing is that there's nothing really awesome about the codex. Sure, there are Helldrakes and Forge/maulerfiends, which are cool, but there's so much that's overcosted, so much that could have been put in (like, I don't know, half of the daemon weapons from the 3rd ed book? There were at least three per god), but this codex seems really weak and empty compared to 3rd edition and especially compared to newer codices like GK, which has special weapons and abilities out the bum.

Am I the only one seeing this, or is this another case of poor imagination?

P.S. At least this codex lists out the playtesters so we know who to slap.

Personally I actually kind of like it as it's not a blatent cheese like the necrons have turned into and it gives some hope that codex creep isn't as bad as people will make it out to be.

However, that being said, this codex really does have some nice features such as the incredibly stupid spawn rush along with baleflamers and of course a return of (well they never left but I feel like they are much better now) obliterators.
I happen to have a bunch of spawn from chaos daemons so it was really fun to see them in action. While I agree with the daemon weapons thing, I never really use them much for lords so it's not as big a deal for me.

The epidermis + zombies madness is actually pretty OP when it does right. Backed up by spawn and helldrakes along with some oblit shooting, it's really been fairly powerful. In fact possibly may need a nerf in the future as it's pretty tough to kill.

The internal balance isn't nearly as good as say IG, or GK or necrons I'll give you that but there are some very successful builds with them now though you tend to have to like certain units in there. (mostly making you buy new models as far as I can tell; mostly spawn, cultists, oblits if you don't have them already, and of course helldrakes)

The epidermis + zombies madness is actually pretty OP when it does right. Backed up by spawn and helldrakes along with some oblit shooting, it's really been fairly powerful. In fact possibly may need a nerf in the future as it's pretty tough to kill.

It was even good before the 6th edition codex. Note that the combo is good because of Epidimius, not because of the zombies.

The internal balance isn't nearly as good as say IG, or GK or necrons I'll give you that but there are some very successful builds with them now though you tend to have to like certain units in there. (mostly making you buy new models as far as I can tell; mostly spawn, cultists, oblits if you don't have them already, and of course helldrakes)

Aaaand there you have it. This is another reason why I am so adamant against this White Dwarf worthy update. First you have to buy a stupidly overpriced $50 book. THEN to put salt in the wound, you have to buy some stupid looking Helturkey for another $75 just for you to even have a fighting chance against a remedial with some Grey Knights.

It'd be awesome if Thousand Sons was a viable list. Or if they had a decent transport. That wasn't a Rhino. Dammit.

 McNinja wrote:
It'd be awesome if Thousand Sons was a viable list. Or if they had a decent transport. That wasn't a Rhino. Dammit.

AKA "it would've been nice if Fail Kelly didn't just phone it in and focused on the actual problems of our last codex". I agree with you wholeheartedly by the way.

It's particularly galling when I'm told that I can have a good codex if I mix and match all the cult units. Guess what, I play mono Khorne. Or at least I did until I stopped with Chaos for this new book. How far the proud fall, eh?

Agree with Vladsimpaler : every codex could be good or bad, it depend on the use you do of it. I play CSM for 10 years, and I think this codex is a good one : many different units, lots of combination and possibilities, psykers are back... very pleasant to play, you can surprise your opponents with very differents armies from games to games.

I like the chaos dex the way it is right now . I dont like when meta game shifts and I have to buy new things . If my flyers werent so good ,I play Ig, I dont know If I would like 6th ed as much as I do now.

I personally have been having a great time with the codex. And I am having some decent success with it. The naysayers will continue to naysay, but I am having a lot of fun with a variety of builds.

Not a bad codex, but a very unimaginative and bland one.

Aren't you guys glad Mat Ward didn't write it?

It would have been more interesting had Mat Ward wrote it.

Overall I found it good but not Overpowered.

Exactly what one wants in a game of 40K.

is the OP complaining about a codex which is actually kind of fun to play? or that its not the "ohmygodhowfreakingoverpoweredawesomesauceisthiscodex"? I like it more than the old codex.

It's not as good as I had hoped, but it certainly has a number of viable units and builds, and I've been enjoying learning its new tricks, ins and outs.

It's definitely been more interesting to work on and play with than the Necrons I was building before, who have a very well-written and powerful codex, but just haven't inspired the same level of motivation.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
is the OP complaining about a codex which is actually kind of fun to play? or that its not the "ohmygodhowfreakingoverpoweredawesomesauceisthiscodex"? I like it more than the old codex.

That's not much of a milestone, considering how bad the 4th edition dex was.

*sigh* as usual, no one is happy with improvement...

 Kaldor wrote:
Aren't you guys glad Mat Ward didn't write it?

Yes. yes i am, the last codex destroyed my ability to field the Iron warriors legion in a way the fluff nut in me wanted, now i can recreate it and know it's still able to compete. there are few bad choices.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
*sigh* as usual, no one is happy with improvement...

It should make you feel better that I don't consider it better or improved, only a horizontal shift. It's still the same stuff I was unhappy about with the 4th edition book, except now it's inbetween the 4th edition and (original) 3rd edition books.

The problem with the codex is that even though it may be balanced, it will have a hard time competing with the top tier codexes; balanced does not equate to being competitive and withstanding the test of time.

Don't get me wrong, it is a solid mid tier codex and in capable hands it does have a chance of doing well. But in my opinion it lacks teeth and the scare-factor that Chaos Space Marines are supposed to have. Heck, I think the Grey Knights allied with Guard would make more of an accurate portrayal of Chaos Marines than the Chaos Marine dex; I always looked at Chaos Space Marines as few in numbers and highly powerful with the bulk of the force being made up of ordinary humans who have fallen to Chaos.

Another point I would like to raise is the distinct lack of weapons which are truly Chaosy and lack of special cult weapons. What I mean by this is that nearly all the weapons are just Space Marine weapons but with spikes. I was really hoping we were going to see a whole plethora of new chaos weapons such as more daemon weapons, hell, maybe even daemon infused shooting weapons. As for the cult troops, I was really hoping that they would gain thier own special weapons such as Plague Marines having Bile throwers which could be a poisoned flamethrower with pinning. Khorne berserkers should of got hand flamers and meltas.

Lastly, vehicle marks have appeared to be forgotten as well.

Nurgle should give the vehicle shrouded and the ground around the vehicle should count as dangerous terrain.

Tzeench should give vehicles a 5+ invuln, ap3 bolt gun weapons and flamers and cannot be shaken or stunned.

Khorne should give vehicles overcharged engines, extra attacks and rage ect if a walker, the ability to assault out of Rhinos.

Slaanesh should allow vehicles to take sonic weapons and the ability to fire at multiple targets due to heightened senses.

MetalOxide cool ideas.
I myself, don't like the codex, because I don't have a MUST units (helldrake, bikes) on whom this codex stands.
I'm also disappointed in lack of variety and customization. For example, GK can build numerous inquisitors, has numerous interesting strategies, psy powers etc, all we got is crappy randomized boon table and few psychic powers. Would it hurt to make for example cultists more interesting? Is it so hard to come with ideas?
More named characters? Maybe champion named character upgrades?

All these small things gives depth and makes codex interesting for a long time IMO and C:CSM lacks those. Not to mention horrible internal balance.

It's not lackluster, it's balanced.

 Kaldor wrote:
Aren't you guys glad Mat Ward didn't write it?

I lol'd

Matt Ward is so awesome, dude boldy re-invents 40K in ways it seriously needs and makes really balanced Dexes that rage people so hard. But when you look at the other Dexes its so obvious how terrible some of them are in story and rules... I'll admit, GKs were insane when they came out, but keeping in mind Ward knew how 6th was going to change CC and AP values for CC weapons they make sense in hindsight.

I really hope by some miracle he does Tau and makes Farsight a Calgar spanking Decepticon who just rapes everything blue with broad shoulders.

I think one of the biggest issues, is there is so much potential that just failed to be realized. Basic things like Marks for Vehicles, could have made a world of difference.

It also feels very rushed. The Internal balance really isn't all that great either, which is too bad.

Overall, the codex itself isn't bad, but I'm glad there are allies. I'll be able to make a pretty neat Chaos Force, with Daemons, at least I'm hoping so.

Something desappointing is that you have only two choices of troups : CSM and cultists, except if you choose a character in your army list (for example, you take Kharn and bersekers becomes troups instead of Elite). But I think they could have more choices for troups in a "regular" army list.

 meecham63 wrote:
Something desappointing is that you have only two choices of troups : CSM and cultists, except if you choose a character in your army list (for example, you take Kharn and bersekers becomes troups instead of Elite). But I think they could have more choices for troups in a "regular" army list.

Lords or Sorcerers with Their respective marks will also unlock the cult unit as a troops choice.

I going to ally with either Necrons or Imperial Guard to get the air superiority or air defence which Chaos Space Marines are missing.

I will admit that the codex does leave a lot of holes and begs a lot of questions.

Why are flakk missiles so expensive?

Why is the god dedicated towards magic given a crappy psychic table?

Oh, these Khorne Berzerkers look cool. I'll throw them in an assual...t.... trans....port.... oh. Fine, I'll just toss them into a drop po... oh.

Really the biggest flaw is that they just cemented their role as spikey marines with much less options for vehicles, at least the options they really should have had.

Bring a Heldrake, bring an allied attachment of Chaos Daemons of screamers and flamers, and you win all the things.

The new CSM codex can best be described as timid - as if they were afraid of giving Chaos anything that could be seen as obviously powerful. It's like they still haven't forgiven Chaos for winning the EoT campaign and are perpetually making amends for giving them a powerful varied codex in 3.5.

It doesn't take a genius to realize what this game is really about - space marines. SM are the main product line, they are the most popular and, being almost entirely plastic, have the highest profit margins. The game is designed to push SM. The various flavors of SM exist to accomplish this. Other armies exist only to serve as opponents. And CSM have the misfortune of being directly comparable to SM, sharing much the same statlines and equipment, yet they aren't SM (in terms of actual products they only share some vehicle sprues). So I guess it's inevitable that CSM will always be destined to fall a little behind. This is probably a conscious design decision - it's all about selling the main army.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The new CSM codex can best be described as timid - as if they were afraid of giving Chaos anything that could be seen as obviously powerful. It's like they still haven't forgiven Chaos for winning the EoT campaign and are perpetually making amends for giving them a powerful varied codex in 3.5.

It doesn't take a genius to realize what this game is really about - space marines. SM are the main product line, they are the most popular and, being almost entirely plastic, have the highest profit margins. The game is designed to push SM. The various flavors of SM exist to accomplish this. Other armies exist only to serve as opponents. And CSM have the misfortune of being directly comparable to SM, sharing much the same statlines and equipment, yet they aren't SM (in terms of actual products they only share some vehicle sprues). So I guess it's inevitable that CSM will always be destined to fall a little behind. This is probably a conscious design decision - it's all about selling the main army.

My face when this makes way more sense than it should

The new CSM book isn't bad, is that everyone wanted a matt ward version aka grey knights and/or another 3.5 codex.

Don't listen to the haters, is a good balanced book.