Swarm template instant deaths

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**Unyielding Hunger**

This Post has been rescinded for a much more clarified post later in the topic. Please Refer to the later post, and I happily retract my statement that you have to take wounds to models under the template. Loopholes have been detected, so have fun.

Unyielding Hunger

**rigeld2**

sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.

Since you still have no real argument for not doubling the wounds, you're now resorting to the slippery slope arguments? Nice, this is why I'm sure you're on the wrong end of this.

No real argument? I'm sorry, is there a post of yours I didn't respond to?
Please don't insult me.

But since you started us down this road how about you address that since you think suffers=lose 1 wound

then you break invuln saves, because you never suffer a wound to save against.

RAW they're broken already, yes. We came to that conclusion earlier in the thread. Have you read it?

Units don't have saves so the whole unit takes every wound.

That would be true except that the rules give the unit a save by having you check each model to see if they're the same save, and then allowing you to roll that.

FNP stops working because if you've already lost the wound there's no wound to save against.

FNP isn't a save.

in a mixed unit, you probably would also claim that even though swarm doubles the wounds, you still only lose 1 wound, because pg 15 says you "reduce that model's wounds by 1.

Please don't pretend to assume what I would argue. This is a lie, I'd never say that.

A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool

Which isn't on a model yet.

you take your armor save against it.

Still not on a model.

we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool.
Now we allocate that one str 6 unsaved wound to the model, which based on the model may or may not cause ID. Because this is the step we reduce wounds.

Correct, the ID isn't determined until you allocate the wound.

for a swarm though
A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool
you take your armor save against it. You used a swarm models save characteristic.

Correct but irrelevant.

we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool. Swarm triggers on unsaved wounds, they double here at first mention of unsaved wounds.

Absolutely false. Which means any assumptions after this point cannot be true. Perhaps you'd like to apply the actual rules instead of your incorrect reading?

Even with a mixed save unit A lot of stuff happens between "if it fails" and "reduce the models wounds by 1." That comma is where the model now has a unsaved wound, for any unsaved wound effects to occur. ie FNP, swarm, etc. it is in that comma that the wound would get doubled creating 2 unsaved wounds. so you now have the 1 wound with a extra wound being created which is floating at this point. We finish the sentence by reducing the model's wounds by 1 which causes ID then we still have a duplicate wound to resolve. So we move on to the next paragraph

So you've allocated a wound. It doubles. Where is your permission to move it back to the wound pool?

"continue allocating wounds ..", taking saves (the wound has already been saved against, its already an unsaved wound) so you reduce the next models wounds by 1 which causes ID.

So in a mixed unit, according to you, a S6 AP6 blast that causes 3 wounds would kill 3 bases and deliver 3 unsaveable wounds to the attached IC? (Assuming a unit of 3 Rippers and a Tyranid Prime)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps if you were less conceited you'd be correct.

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you've failed to use?

**Fragile**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Ok guys, I have come to save this thread, but before I do, I would like to make some important notes. For those that have championed the fact that you shouldn't be killing 8 Ripper Swams, I thank you. However, you guys have spent far too long looking at the wrong section, and for that, shame on you.

For those that insist that you can kill 8 models, I am sorry to inform you that you guys are wrong.

To the Original Poster, I have come to solve this important question in 1 post, that when done, should completely kill this thread because there is no way to refute simple logic, which is how I plan to solve this. So, without further ado, may I present the 100% answer that no one can deny.

The Scenario: A swarm of 9 Ripper Swarms has been hit by a Strength 6 Armor Penetration 2 Blast Template. 4 of the Ripper Swarms fall under the template.

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.
3. Each Ripper Swarm has simultaneous checks for Armor Saves, which auto-fail from Armor Penetration.
4. Each Ripper Swarm suffers a Wound, which is immediately doubled from the Swarms rule.
5. Each Ripper Swarm suffers the first wound, which immediately makes a check for Instant Death, which it fails, and immediately dies.
6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast Template, and Wounds dealt from a Blast Template cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast Template.
7. Game continues on.

I must say, I am dissapointed in this thread. No one ever thought to challenge this shouting match with the simple rules of a Blast Template. Instead of fighting over wording, you should have simply gone back to the beginning of the problem. Remember, the effect of any problem is determined by the cause. In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

Unyielding Hunger

Perhaps you should explain your number 6 and cite rules to back it up.

**rigeld2**

Fragile wrote:
Unyielding Hunger wrote:

6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast Template, and Wounds dealt from a Blast Template cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast Template.

Perhaps you should explain your number 6 and cite rules to back it up.

I completely missed that - stopped reading when he got step 2 wrong.

**Unyielding Hunger**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.

Pg 15, right hand side. Allocate Wounds down to Emptied Wound Pool.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you used?

**DeathReaper**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:
For those that insist that you can kill 8 models, I am sorry to inform you that you guys are wrong.

If your premise was correct, then you would be correct, but your premise falls apart. See below for more info.

To the Original Poster, I have come to solve this important question in 1 post, that when done, should completely kill this thread because there is no way to refute simple logic, which is how I plan to solve this. So, without further ado, may I present the 100% answer that no one can deny.

The Scenario: A swarm of 9 Ripper Swarms has been hit by a Strength 6 Armor Penetration 2 Blast ~~Template~~ Marker. 4 of the Ripper Swarms fall under the ~~Template~~ Marker.

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

This is where you are incorrect (#2). Read P.15 the wounds are not allocated until after saves are made. So Denied.

6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast ~~Template~~ Marker, and Wounds dealt from a Blast ~~Template~~ Marker cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast ~~Template~~ Marker.

This is incorrect as well. Any model in the unit can be allocated the wound even if they were not under the blast marker. If it was not barrage you must remove the closest model to the firing unit first even if it was not under the Blast Marker. See the remove casualties section on P. 15 for more details.

Also Blast Marker, not Template. The Template is the teardrop shaped Template they use for flamer weapons.

7. Game continues on.

I must say, I am dissapointed in this thread. No one ever thought to challenge this shouting match with the simple rules of a Blast ~~Template~~ Marker. Instead of fighting over wording, you should have simply gone back to the beginning of the problem. Remember, the effect of any problem is determined by the cause. In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast ~~Template~~ Marker.

Unyielding Hunger

Added the orange.

Please re-read the blast marker section, any model can be killed as a result of the blast marker hits.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because you're applying the wound to the models (so you can double it).
Why are you being inconsistent?

I am not applying anything.

They tell us to use the common armor save in the unit to make armor saves before allocation. after the models fail their armor saves, which is before applying the wounds to the models, you see that Swarm rule doubles unsaved wounds.

A unit is just a collection of models, so does the unit have the swarm rule? If so the wounds get doubled when they are suffered.

Basically the process is this:

1. Cause wounds and populate the wound pool.
2. Roll armor saves and fail 4 armor saves (Note it says the unit gets an armor save but models take saves not units so this step either does not work, or we have to look to the models for the SV value).
3. Since the unit suffers an unsaved wound and the unit has the Swarm rule the wounds are now doubled.
4. Allocate wounds and remove casualties.

**rigeld2**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

rigeld2 wrote:Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.

Pg 15, right hand side. Allocate Wounds down to Emptied Wound Pool.

Same save units do armor saves first, then allocate, and its not allocated 1 to each ripper swarm, but one to the closest model, resolved, repeat.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you used?

Fixed that for you. Read the rules. The initial wounds were allocated to the wounds pool from the shot. The extra wounds given by Swarms are never given to the wounds pool, therefore they cannot be reallocated. 4 wounds were caused by the shot, and those are the only wounds given to the wounds pool.

And modified original post to be more clear.

Oh, so exactly what I've been saying, only with incorrect rules citation and confusing wording? Thanks for being so disappointed and bringing up irrelevant rules - protip: in this case the blast rules are absolutely irrelevant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

1. Cause wounds and populate the wound pool.
2. Roll armor saves and fail 4 armor saves (Note it says the unit gets an armor save but models take saves not units so this step either does not work, or we have to look to the models for the SV value).

I've addressed this. The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.

3. Since the unit suffers an unsaved wound and the unit has the Swarm rule the wounds are now doubled.
4. Allocate wounds and remove casualties.

The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.

**katfude**

So what was wrong with my post that it got completely skipped over?

The rules are all about timing.

Eternal warrior activates upon an unsaved wound. So does the double rainbow effect of templates on swarms. They activate simultaneously, so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first. You also roll all saves at the same time in a non-mixed unit, so all wounds are rolled simultaneously, unless they are mixed str and ap value shots, which the shooting player chooses which set of shots hit and resolve first.

There are 4 scarab bases. I wound 3 with baleflamer hits. I choose ID to apply first. I kill 3 models.

If I chose double wounds, I would have 6 wounds, and each base has 3 wounds. I kill 2 bases, with no spill-over to the other 2 bases, so ID applies to no model. I kill only 2 bases.

I hit and wound with a bolter and 3 wounds from a baleflamer. I apply the bolter first, remove 1 wound, double the wounds to 6 first, then apply instant death. 1 wound spills over to the other base and I kill 3 scarabs. Had I applied instant death first, the same amount of models would have died, because the bolter left 2 wounds open for ID to stick to.

In a mixed unit, it's more complex. You must allocate wounds on a model-by-model basis. You would have to roll each save separately, and then upon a failure, resolve the double wound/ID order, which would mean that either order would do nothing for you in my example.

4 scarab bases and 1 lord attached. Scarabs are up front, but the unit is mixed. I can, therefore, assign wounds on a model-by-model basis, RAW.

"First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit." If there is no save or a failed save, then you choose to apply the template or the ID effect first, MODEL-BY-MODEL per RAW. I can elect to use the fast dice rule as the defender. "You can instead allocate them in groups equal to however many models with the same, best save are nearest to the firing unit."

3 scarabs, 1 lord w/ phase shifter. 4 baleflamer wounds. I apply 3 wounds only, per mixed saves.

If shooter doubles first: 6 wounds, 2 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer wound to other scarab base. Lord takes no wound.

If shooter IDs first: 3 ID wounds, 3 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer to the lord.

Work complete!

**rigeld2**

The fact that you ignore allocation in all of your examples.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.

They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

@katfude 2 things.

1) it was back on Page 4
2) Doubling of wounds and Determining ID have nothing to do with "Applying rules first" Not sure what you post is supposed to imply.

Basically you said "so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first." where did you get that from, because it is not a rule. You may be confusing it with P. 9, the exceptions section says: if both players have to do something at the same time then the player whose turn it is decides the order.

This is not the case here as both players do not have to do something.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.
They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

I'm not glossing over it.
The triggers for the two are exactly identical. You're applying one and not the other. Why?

**katfude**

DeathReaper wrote:

Basically you said "so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first." where did you get that from, because it is not a rule. You may be confusing it with P. 9, the exceptions section says: if both players have to do something at the same time then the player whose turn it is decides the order.

This is not the case here as both players do not have to do something.

Thank you, I totally misapplied that.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.
They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

I'm not glossing over it.
The triggers for the two are exactly identical. You're applying one and not the other. Why?

The triggers for both Swarm and ID are identical (Suffering an unsaved wound) then we have to apply them when the unit suffers an unsaved wound, which is after saves are rolled, but before allocation as per the rules.

So we try and save 4 wound, and fail 3. At this point we have 3 unsaved wounds which are doubled to 6 unsaved wounds due to swarm and cause ID due to Str double tough.

We then allocate those 6 wounds, one at a time, and we see that 1 ID wound kills one base. We then have 5 wounds left to allocate, so we allocate another to the next closest model to the firing unit and kill that one as well etc...

**rigeld2**

Again, you're forcing a model to suffer a wound before allocating it. You have no permission to do so.

And you're misapplying ID. Using your interpretation, the wounds wound double and all wounds in the unit would be reduced to zero, per the ID rules. You can't insert a step for no reason.

**Gravmyr**

Except you would be applying Swarm USR at unit level to double them and ID at the model level. As you just said you have to apply them both at the same time as they are identical but where the Same Save method tells you to determine the save you don't have any permission to compare strength the unit's toughness. Can you show me where it tells you in Same Save method it tells you to compare strength to toughness?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have special permission to do one thing out of order and that is to takes saves before allocation that is all. It does not say you can do anything else. It doesn't say to apply all rules before allocation.

**DeathReaper**

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater" P. 16

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43

Notice the difference?

**Happyjew**

Yes, one refers to a model, the other refers to a model with the Swarms special rule.

**DeathReaper**

You mean a unit with the swarms rule

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
You mean a unit with the swarms rule

Cite a unit with that special rule.

**DeathReaper**

When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.

The rules of the English language.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.
The rules of the English language.

Which would be inconsistent with how GW words special rules.

Do units test for Dangerous Terrain, or do models?

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.

Basically the Swarms rule has the same requirement as armor saves.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.

Basically the Swarms rule has the same requirement as armor saves.

Really? Can you show it to me? I'm not seeing it. I see it in the Same Save rules for armor saves...

**DeathReaper**

You have to check if it is a Swarm or not.

It all boils down to what is a "Swarm"

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound..." P. 43

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
You have to check if it is a Swarm or not.

Citation required. We know that you have to check armor saves - so you can tell the difference between a same and mixed save unit.

**DeathReaper**

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds" Page 43.

You have to check if it is a Swarm when the unit suffers an unsaved Wound to be able to apply the rule.

**Gravmyr**

You are still not allowed to apply any rules that affect models at this point till a model suffers a wound, the unit has suffered a wound not a model. You have permission to change one timing issue alone and that is saves before allocation. Swarm USR is a model only rule as all rules that apply to entire units are the ones that say "A unit containing at least one model with this special rule" or something nearly identical. If the wounds applied to the unit without regard to models it would have been worded in Same Save method as remove a number of models with wounds equal to the wounds in the wound pool. It does not. INstead the focus shifts to individual models again as soon as the saves are failed via allocation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside by saying that Swarm applies to the whole unit as it is all a Swarm due to the english language you are also saying that the only time a Swarm has it's unsaved wounds doubled is when it suffers a single unsaved wound. Note the rule says wound not wounds. So either it doubles at allocation of an unsaved wound or at the failure of a save of an allocated wound any other time it is wounds.

**ah64pilot5**

So, new to this discussion, but trying to get it straight in my head also.
Is there a rule that allows a unit to wound more models than it hits in the shooting phase?
My reason for asking this is what if a unit shoots a heavy incinerator and can only just reach one swarm base in a unit of 6 (stupid positioning, but thats the scenario.)
By the doubling and going back to the wound pool that would would kill a second base. But in this instance, only one base was hit.
Where in the rules does it allow you to move wounds from shooting onto a model that was not even hit in the first place? I had thought that shooting was a 1 for 1 on hit vs. wound?
Not trying to be a pain, but much of this discussion seems confusing and circular.