Swarm template instant deaths

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**jegsar**

With fast rolling you take the save, fail the save suffer the wound when failed and then allocate the wound to a model...

**DeathReaper**

Gravmyr wrote:
No you cannot have a suffered wound without allocation.

This is false.

P 15 tells you to take saving throws for like save units. (This tells you what to do).

P. 16 tells us the process of tanking a saving throw. (This tells you how to do it).

P.16 says for each wound allocated, this is over-riden by P.15 that tells us to take saves before allocation.

**Gravmyr**

If pg 15 overrides the need for the allocation then it would also override the suffer and turn it into caused. In same save does use suffer at all? It's wounds caused then unsaved wounds caused. If you are agreeing that pg 15 overrides the requirement of a save then you are also agreeing to all the changes to saves including changing it from suffer to cause as that is what pg 15 calls the now unsaved wounds, caused not suffered.

**sirlynchmob**

Lungpickle wrote:
SO LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT.

1 lonely tac flamer guy walkes up to 10 canoptic scarabs. Lays out a template covers 4 bases.

I roll to wound get 4 wounds, If my opponent has a save he could take he would roll for all of the scarabs at once since they are fought as a group and all have the same save. Alas he can't make a save and is wounded 4 times multiplied by 2 for a grand total of 8 wound due to the swarm rule, which in fact are double tough insta kill wounds.

He would then allocate the unsaved wounds per rullebook page 15.
And according to the new FAq would remove 4 bases only.

Seems pretty simple to me....

and which new faq would that be? I missed any mention of swarm being clarified. feel free to post the relevant faq entry.

**Lungpickle**

If im looking at pg 15 and 16 correctly i see two rules being explained. thats pretty much it. pg 16 is explaining a saving throw, page 15 is telling you how to allocate wounds and remove casualties on alike models. Allocating wounds and removing casualties it what IMHO should be used in this case since its point specific on how and when saves are used apllied wounds are done and the like. The other explains the saving throw fundamentals.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
@deathreaper Do you see that the section you are quoting has allocation before the save that you are talking about?

Right so one of two things happens Either:

We can not take saves first as they have not been allocated.
Or
We must take saves first and the full rules apply. (This includes creating unsaved wounds)

The rules tell us it is the second one.

Why are you still applying a model based rule before allocating to a model?
"Saves are model based and they're applied before allocation therefore everything is!"
No. Absolutely false. Page 15 gives permission to use saves before allocation. Cite permission to use other model based rules that do not modify saves before a model suffers a wound.

**DeathReaper**

Because you took the saves for a model/unit of models with the swarm rule and generated unsaved wounds because of failing a save on a model/unit of models with the swarm rule.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
Because you took the saves for a model/unit of models with the swarm rule and generated unsaved wounds because of failing a save on a model/unit of models with the swarm rule.

So you still haven't found permission then?
And unit/model are not interchangeable - that was proven incorrect a few pages ago.

**DeathReaper**

Permission is in the Swarms rule.

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds" P. 43

If the swarm failed the save, then the swarm suffered an Unasved wound from a blast or template.

**rigeld2**

And Swarm is a USR the unit has, or one the model has?

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
And Swarm is a USR the unit has, or one the model has?

All of the models in the unit have it.

You rolled the armor save for the models in the unit, and suffered an unsaved wound for each failed armor save, thus those wounds are doubled as the models that failed the save have the Swarms rule.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
And Swarm is a USR the unit has, or one the model has?
All of the models in the unit have it.

You rolled the armor save for the models in the unit, and suffered an unsaved wound for each failed armor save, thus those wounds are doubled as the models that failed the save have the Swarms rule.

Page 15 - it's the unit's saving throw, not the model's. so it isn't a model failing a save.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
And Swarm is a USR the unit has, or one the model has?
All of the models in the unit have it.

You rolled the armor save for the models in the unit, and suffered an unsaved wound for each failed armor save, thus those wounds are doubled as the models that failed the save have the Swarms rule.

Page 15 - it's the unit's saving throw, not the model's. so it isn't a model failing a save.

Except the unit does not have a Sv value, the models do.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
And Swarm is a USR the unit has, or one the model has?
All of the models in the unit have it.

You rolled the armor save for the models in the unit, and suffered an unsaved wound for each failed armor save, thus those wounds are doubled as the models that failed the save have the Swarms rule.

Page 15 - it's the unit's saving throw, not the model's. so it isn't a model failing a save.
Except the unit does not have a Sv value, the models do.

And page 15 gives allowance to use the models save for the unit (same save unit). Cite permission to apply other model based rules to the unit.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:

And page 15 gives allowance to use the models save for the unit (same save unit). Cite permission to apply other model based rules to the unit.

If you use the save from the model, why are you ignoring the other rules of the model when you fail a save and suffer a wound?

**Gravmyr**

It only tells you to use the model's save for the unit not to apply all model based usr's to the unit.

**sirlynchmob**

Gravmyr wrote:
It only tells you to use the model's save for the unit not to apply all model based usr's to the unit.

Nice assumption there

All you need to prove that point, is to show anywhere that you are specifically given permission to check models for any USR, model or otherwise.

**Gravmyr**

It's not an assumption. It's all same save tells you to look at.

**sirlynchmob**

Gravmyr wrote:
It's not an assumption. It's all same save tells you to look at.

Its a far leap from "target unit gets to make one saving through, if it has one" to

check models for any SR's that may modify the saving throw.

It only tells you to use the model's save for the unit not to apply all model based usr's to the unit.

so if it only says to use the models save, you are then only using the models unmodified save. Unless you can quote where it says to check for USR.

**Gravmyr**

Since there is no way for them to always to have a correct cover save and you have to calculate it on a model by model basis you have to look at the special rules to determine each model's save. Does it say to apply anything else? How do you calculate cover saves without looking at USR's? You calculate each model's save and compare and then take that save. It's not a far save they write different things different ways. A model doesn't have an invuln save on it's sheet without wargear/psychic powers/special rules. Tell me do you allow invuln saves?

**sirlynchmob**

Gravmyr wrote:
Since there is no way for them to always to have a correct cover save and you have to calculate it on a model by model basis you have to look at the special rules to determine each model's save. Does it say to apply anything else? How do you calculate cover saves without looking at USR's? You calculate each model's save and compare and then take that save. It's not a far save they write different things different ways. A model doesn't have an invuln save on it's sheet without wargear/psychic powers/special rules. Tell me do you allow invuln saves?

RAP (rules as played) Yep, I love me some invuln saves. so tell me do you allow invuln saves from the skyshield? If you can't have permission to check for models and any SR's that they have, where do you get permission to check buildings for SR's?

pg 18 & 19, cover saves. Its a set value based on what you hide behind. Now show me under those two pages where it grants permission to check for or apply stealth or shroud? Then why you think you can pick and choose when to look for SR's without permission.

permissive based rules remember, so where do you get permission to check for any SR's?

**Gravmyr**

If you look at the model's save and this were something that could affect it without my looking they would alter the save. Since you cannot calculate the saves without looking you have to look to see what the save is you look. Seriously for someone that claims someone else is using logical fallacies...... I can in fact write you off entirely.

**Happyjew**

So since we are apparently applying model based rules to units, does that mean my Tac Squad with Librarian in Termie armour are now Relentless?

**sirlynchmob**

Gravmyr wrote:
If you look at the model's save and this were something that could affect it without my looking they would alter the save. Since you cannot calculate the saves without looking you have to look to see what the save is you look. Seriously for someone that claims someone else is using logical fallacies...... I can in fact write you off entirely.

The point is, which you keep missing, is that you can't claim you have permission to look for models with SR's that apply to saves yet ignore any other SR's those same models have. You can't claim that to be RAW if you can not show anywhere that you are given permission to check for SR's that only affect saves. When can you check for SR's? where are you given permission to do so?

I keep asking you for your proof, and you have never provided any, ergo it's just your assumption, not RAW.

**rigeld2**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
If you look at the model's save and this were something that could affect it without my looking they would alter the save. Since you cannot calculate the saves without looking you have to look to see what the save is you look. Seriously for someone that claims someone else is using logical fallacies...... I can in fact write you off entirely.

The point is, which you keep missing, is that you can't claim you have permission to look for models with SR's that apply to saves yet ignore any other SR's those same models have.

Absolutely 100% false. What save does a unit of Scouts have?

You can't claim that to be RAW if you can not show anywhere that you are given permission to check for SR's that only affect saves. When can you check for SR's? where are you given permission to do so?

When you're told to determine if the entire unit has the same save.

I keep asking you for your proof, and you have never provided any, ergo it's just your assumption, not RAW.

False. Proof has been provided - you've simply refused to accept it.

Answer my question - what save does a unit of Scouts have?

**sirlynchmob**

rigeld2 wrote:

False. Proof has been provided - you've simply refused to accept it.

You're projecting again.

and Units don't have saves.

**rigeld2**

sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

False. Proof has been provided - you've simply refused to accept it.

You're projecting again.

and Units don't have saves.

You're told to determine if all models in a unit have the same save and then use that save as the units save.
So what save does a unit of Scouts have?

**sirlynchmob**

rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

False. Proof has been provided - you've simply refused to accept it.

You're projecting again.

and Units don't have saves.

You're told to determine if all models in a unit have the same save and then use that save as the units save.
So what save does a unit of Scouts have?

So you still can't prove your point, so you're just going to post random questions now?

How about you answer this question, Other than just saying its wrong. As you can't prove its wrong, I have no reason to follow you on your random tangents.

The point is, which you keep missing, is that you can't claim you have permission to look for models with SR's that apply to saves yet ignore any other SR's those same models have. When are you ever given permission to check for SR's?

**rigeld2**

sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

False. Proof has been provided - you've simply refused to accept it.

You're projecting again.

and Units don't have saves.

You're told to determine if all models in a unit have the same save and then use that save as the units save.
So what save does a unit of Scouts have?

So you still can't prove your point, so you're just going to post random questions now?

How about you answer this question, Other than just saying its wrong. As you can't prove its wrong, I have no reason to follow you on your random tangents.

The point is, which you keep missing, is that you can't claim you have permission to look for models with SR's that apply to saves yet ignore any other SR's those same models have. When are you ever given permission to check for SR's?

I've answered it a few times.
You must determine saves.
To determine saves, you must look for SRs that modify saves.
The Swarm rule does not modify any saves whatsoever.

Now, what save does a unit of Scouts have?

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
You're told to determine if all models in a unit have the same save and then use that save as the units save.

and lets say those models fail one save, and those models have the Swarms rule.

Has a Swarm suffered an unsaved wound after the failed save? (Hint: Yes it has).