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I have a friend that I play against fairly regularly, who uses Nurgle CSMs.

I wanted to see if y'all had any interesting insights on Blood Angels (or really any Space Marine chapter) versus The Purge, with their Toughness 5 and plague grenades to remove bonus CC attacks.

He also loves to field several Helbrutes (usually two of four available ones---(1) multi-melta & powerfist, (2) power scourges, (3) reaper autocannon and powerfist and (4) plasma cannon and missile launcher). And he has a pet Forgefiend with three ectoplasma cannons. Finally, he uses a Vindicator.

Recently, he added a terminator squad with three combi-flamers, a heavy flamer, two (separate) lightning claws and two power axes. And don't forget: these, also, have the Mark of Nurgle *shiver.*

He also sometimes uses several Warp Talons with a character to give them fearless (added after Astorath the Grim spanked them all by his lonesome and sent them running to their table edge), that unfortunately can trash most close-combat fellows of my own, unless it's a charging Death Company unit.


Anyway... more information than you needed, but I thought I'd give you a good idea of what he plays and see what kind of interesting tactics could come of it. What sorts of lists would you build against an army likely to have the above in it, plus two large cultist units and a few different toughness 5 CSM units? This is obviously a pretty big battle that I am conceptualizing.

Assuming you're referring to PM by "Nurgle CSM", I have two answers:

1-Demolisher Cannon. It's awesome against all of the units you mention, so you may consider getting some Vindicators. It ignores FnP, ignores armor and thus kills PM in droves, and is almost guaranteed to penetrate Helbrutes and Forgefiends, and Chaos Vindicators too. Just make sure you have multiple DC to pound the enemy with.

2-Sword of Sanguinius. Same as above. Beware of using this against large groups though, PMs can get nasty in combat if you fail to wipe them out.

If you're referring to regular CSM with MoN, it's much easier, use anything with power weapons and halfway decent strength and/or re-rolls. Sample units: Sanguinary Guard, Assault Marines or Death Company with Sanguinary Priests, GK with Hammerhand, the EC with the Black Sword, Termies/Deathwing/Sword Brethren/Wolf Guard w/LC, any SW unit with Frost Axes/Swords/Wolf Claws, Veterans.

The TallyMaster is a ridiculous force multiplier, and if it is in his army, it;s a hard figure to get to and kill usually.

I primarily use RANGe as the main weapon against the enem,y and concentrate on troops only if possible His tally slows at range and of course you're killing the valuable scoring units while you still can. You have to give up volume of attacks in order to avoid volume of casuialties from your army. Just be thinking about it as you play if he's using that Nurgle build

Just do something to them to get them off of the 3+ save to force them to make a harder 5 feel no pain i play necrons and i have thousands suns,necrons i just use doomdays ark or deepstrike deathmarks with a crytec with the staff that does str 8 ap 1 flamer and wounds on a 2 up because of the hunter from hyperspace rule and thousands suns guns have the bullets that does 3 ap so that is how i deal with them

Hedkrakka wrote:
Assuming you're referring to PM by "Nurgle CSM", I have two answers:

1-Demolisher Cannon. It's awesome against all of the units you mention, so you may consider getting some Vindicators. It ignores FnP, ignores armor and thus kills PM in droves, and is almost guaranteed to penetrate Helbrutes and Forgefiends, and Chaos Vindicators too. Just make sure you have multiple DC to pound the enemy with.

2-Sword of Sanguinius. Same as above. Beware of using this against large groups though, PMs can get nasty in combat if you fail to wipe them out.

If you're referring to regular CSM with MoN, it's much easier, use anything with power weapons and halfway decent strength and/or re-rolls. Sample units: Sanguinary Guard, Assault Marines or Death Company with Sanguinary Priests, GK with Hammerhand, the EC with the Black Sword, Termies/Deathwing/Sword Brethren/Wolf Guard w/LC, any SW unit with Frost Axes/Swords/Wolf Claws, Veterans.

Sorry, what do you mean by PM?

And could you explain the reason for adding Sanguinary Priests to DC when DC already has Feel No Pain and Furious Charge?


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 Jancoran wrote:
The TallyMaster is a ridiculous force multiplier, and if it is in his army, it;s a hard figure to get to and kill usually.

I primarily use RANGe as the main weapon against the enem,y and concentrate on troops only if possible His tally slows at range and of course you're killing the valuable scoring units while you still can. You have to give up volume of attacks in order to avoid volume of casuialties from your army. Just be thinking about it as you play if he's using that Nurgle build

Tally Master?

Plasma Weapons, they will wound PMs [Plague Marines] on a 2+ and even do well vs. the “Dread”.

I can think a lot of things tbh:

Mephiston will rape units
Libby dread, hell even a talon dread will kill the unit...
Dead Company with Lemartes
Landraider with Flamerstorm cannons

and if you ally, take a dreadknight with teleporter and heavy inferno cannon

 themeremortal wrote:

Sorry, what do you mean by PM?

And could you explain the reason for adding Sanguinary Priests to DC when DC already has Feel No Pain and Furious Charge?

PM=Plague Marines in that context.
I forgot that DC had FC, sorry. Ignore the Priest there, he's only for Assault Marines.

Ah, Plague Marines. Yeah, he sometimes uses Plague Marines and sometimes uses regular CSMs. By "Nurgle" I just meant those with the Mark of Nurgle.

Well, I definitely understand what to use as far as weapons against him. Of course use plasma, melta and such. I guess I was talking about general tactics on employing said weapons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valek wrote:
I can think a lot of things tbh:

Mephiston will rape units
Libby dread, hell even a talon dread will kill the unit...
Dead Company with Lemartes
Landraider with Flamerstorm cannons

and if you ally, take a dreadknight with teleporter and heavy inferno cannon

What, specifically, about Mephiston have you found rapetastic about him? I've never fielded him, so I am curious about what you have found to work about him. He's very expensive, for sure. But his stats are glorious.

Yes, my DC Dread with Talons has shat on many a CSM unit that was given the Mark of Nurgle.

I like Lemartes as an individual character, but I have found that a Chaplain or Reclusiarch is a better use of points to accomplish what he does.

I run the Redeemer as well, though the abundance of melta weapons in my friend's army munch on that 250 point beast. I still run it, though, as it's great for moving jump-packless Death Company and drawing fire away from my more instrumental units.




So, basically, this is what I was looking for--a little discussion about the finer points of really broadening and combining different strategies against CSMs (especially Plague Marines) who deny insta-kills to everything but strength 10 weapons and such. Thus, yes, a Vindicator or two would be extremely helpful, but how does it mesh with the rest of the list and theoretically play out in the battle?

Against Plague Marines really STR 10 is the only way to go. As said before Vindicators really ruin PMs. As for chaos marines really anything AP3 or better. Small arms are not very good because of the T5. Plasma guns, Flamestorm cannons, Drop podding sternguard with combi plasma can really punish a unit of marines.

The common dilemma I run into is that when I focus on his Plague Marines/CSMs, his Helbrutes love to take my vehicles out and the footsloggers soon follow. Just about the only thing left alive is the DC, which is never a scoring unit, so that incapacitates me in objectives-based games.

Attacking the things with rending weapons; Retributors w/ Heavy Bolters, genestealers, gargoyles, most nidz come to think of it...

Last game I played him in (a 1500 pt game of Relic), I used the following force:

HQ:
-Reclusiarch (travelling with the DC).

Elite:
-2 Sanguinary Priests with jump packs and meltabombs (each traveling with Assault Marine squads).
-5 Sternguard with 2 multi-meltas (traveling in a rhino to make a fast-moving vehicle that can fire two multi-meltas a turn).

Troops;
-8 DC w/2 power weapons, traveling in Land Raider Redeemer equipped with Multi-Melta
-DC Dread w/Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer
-10 Assault Marines, Sergeant equipped with meltabombs
-5 Assault Marines, Sergeant equipped with meltabombs

Fast Attack:
-Baal Predator w/Flamestorm Cannon and Heavy Flamer side sponsons.



He had (don't know how his list lays out, so it's non-specific)...

Warpsmith

-4 Helbrutes (the 4 I mentioned in my first post).
-Forgefiend with three ectoplasma cannons.
-CSM Unit with plasma and heavy bolter
-Plaguemarines with plasma, heavy bolter and plague grenades (to stunt my DC a little).

Why Multi Meltas with the sternguard? Drop them and outfit the whole unit with combi meltas and put them in a Pod. Drop them in and roast the hellbrutes.

You have very little long range firepower and tat is where he is beating you. A stormraven or a annillahtor pred would do you well

It was mostly to comply with the FOC, and to have another fast vehicle with two multi-meltas to fire at once, to get into melta range faster. If the melta shots fail on the combi-meltas, I have only boltguns after that, is my concern. I will have spent 25 points versus 10 on shots that I can only use once in the battle. Granted, that's one almost guaranteed dead Helbrute, so you have a strong point. I definitely would enjoy that for a larger list. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep it in mind.

I agree. We are talking about a 1500 point list in this case, however.

Combi-Melta still works wonders even if its a one trick pony. More than likely all you need is that alpha strike on the Hellbrute and its goodnight sunshine. If the initial melta strike does not work consider running melta bombs.

Sternguard are really great Alpha strikers and for everything else you got special ammo to deal with MoN CSM.

Missile devs will take care of his walkers at long range and can still put the hurt on his infantry afterwards.

Also, do you feel you're getting enough out of the LRR/DC combo? Wouldn't just the normal ASM do the job more efficiently?

you loose access to the special ammo that sternguard has access to if you take anything other than the combi weapons.

use vindicators.or baal preds with ss/ HB. Thats a lot of firepower. thats 10d6, 4 s6 TLAC and 6 HB.

and we all know how good it feels to roll those dice.

You just have to keep shooting at them....or you could just hit them once with the Vindicator....your call.

nothing like putting the large template over all of theire stuff, esp if you hardly ever play them. they may never see it coming. esp the first time.

One unit, sternguard, hellfire rounds wound on a 2 plus who cares about t5, they can all have combi weapons for 5 pts each, use 10 sternguard and combat squad them, thats 5 combi meltas for each hellbrute

Assault marines with sang priest and libby with divination, on charge they will get hitting on 4's re rolling (with prescience) and wounding on 4's with furious charge,


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IGotBodied wrote:
Combi-Melta still works wonders even if its a one trick pony. More than likely all you need is that alpha strike on the Hellbrute and its goodnight sunshine. If the initial melta strike does not work consider running melta bombs.

Sternguard are really great Alpha strikers and for everything else you got special ammo to deal with MoN CSM.

Sternguard can also take 2 melta guns per squad for the same cost as combi weapon 5 pts each!, if you are running 10 of them it wouldnt matter much that you lose their speical ammo

As long as the tallymaster isn't on the board PM are not that bad. Sure they are really tough, but they cost more than purifiers. A really hard hitting cc unit can knock them out of cover, and they cannot go to ground in 6th ed. There are lots of solutions, unless the tallymaster is around. Then there is only 1 solution : kill the tallymaster.

 schadenfreude wrote:
As long as the tallymaster isn't on the board PM are not that bad. Sure they are really tough, but they cost more than purifiers. A really hard hitting cc unit can knock them out of cover, and they cannot go to ground in 6th ed. There are lots of solutions, unless the tallymaster is around. Then there is only 1 solution : kill the tallymaster.

That's why I throw him in my armies.

For under 200 points, I can have Epidemius hanging out in ruins or behind some terrain. He forces my opponent to commit to killing him, which wastes resources on his side of the board. If Epidemius is ignored, the PMs get 'powered up' to the point of silly.

I played a game today where 2 squads of PMs kill Ghaz, a mega-armor warboss, and 10 meganobs while taking minimal losses. This was because I was able to keep Epi out of range and safe while I tallied up.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
As long as the tallymaster isn't on the board PM are not that bad. Sure they are really tough, but they cost more than purifiers. A really hard hitting cc unit can knock them out of cover, and they cannot go to ground in 6th ed. There are lots of solutions, unless the tallymaster is around. Then there is only 1 solution : kill the tallymaster.

That's why I throw him in my armies.

For under 200 points, I can have Epidemius hanging out in ruins or behind some terrain. He forces my opponent to commit to killing him, which wastes resources on his side of the board. If Epidemius is ignored, the PMs get 'powered up' to the point of silly.

I played a game today where 2 squads of PMs kill Ghaz, a mega-armor warboss, and 10 meganobs while taking minimal losses. This was because I was able to keep Epi out of range and safe while I tallied up.

Yea smashing into t5 pm with a 3+fnp that wound manz on a rerollable 2+ isn't going to work. Which brings me to another small but very very important detail.

That fat feth in the chair kills entire armies by sitting his fat ass in his chair and counting the tally. He has to deploy by deamonic assault, and he has to die asap. If an entire battle plan centers around killing him never choose to go first against a tally list. All that does is allow the chaos player to keep fatty McFatFeth safe and snug in reserve while forces are committed, and then he gets to deep strike after you've wasted a turn committing forces to locations he's not going to be.

I've actually been considering bringing a bastion so I can throw epi into it on turn 2 (provided he came in on the perferred wave)

I can even throw a com-relay on top to ensure he comes in on turn 2 if I don't get my perferred wave, and I can throw a few autocannon havocs with MoN on top. When the tally hits 20, autocannons that ignore armor are pretty nasty.

What makes that strong is that you have to cut your way through 50 PMs in my 2k list to get to him. Given the durability of PMs, thats easier said than done.

To the OP
The thing that gives me the biggest PITA are weapons that don't care about T5. The best example of this are autocannons. Where a bolter has a ~1/20 of a chance of killing that PM, the autocannon is nearly as good vs them as normal MEQ

I wouldn't be overly worried by autocannons -- you've still got your armor and FNP to mitigate that.

Worry more about anything S6 AP3 or S7 AP2. The latter is a remarkably common profile, and the former has been getting more common recently...
...and of course, S10 AP2. Demolisher cannons will end plague marines quickly and decisively.

Corollax wrote:
I wouldn't be overly worried by autocannons -- you've still got your armor and FNP to mitigate that.

Worry more about anything S6 AP3 or S7 AP2.

You missed the point. Any weapon that is STR 7 or greater is the concern. It does not matter if you get saves or not.

For example, an ork loota squad is extremely dangerous to PMs, even though it gives saves. I was playing a game earlier this week and one PM squad took 12 wounds from 10 lootas shooting at it.

PGs or AP2 weapons are also extremely dangerous, but its the STR 7+ that makes them very scary. The AP2 also really sucks, but its pushing that 'to wound' roll down to 1 that's really dangerous.

The key is to mitigate that Toughness advantage. Low AP weapons are dangerous to PMs, but their also dangerous to any MEQ. If the STR is not 7+, then point-for-point their less dangerous to PMs than normal MEQ. Its that STR that makes the weapons so darn dangerous to PMs

Okay, yeah. I'm convinced about the combi-meltas. Very good call. I like the drop pod idea too.
Although, I do like the idea of using two meltaguns in the unit too.


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And I think a Vindicator is on my list for future purchases.

Since BA Libbys cant take Biomancy, always worth trying to roll Enfeeble, this will at least mean wounding them on a 4+ instead of a 5+ in combat.

I'm not an expert on the CSM codex, but that looks like a lot of Helbrutes to have in anything short of a 2000pt list...

 themeremortal wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:

Tally Master?

Epidemius

Here would be my 2k list for Nurgle

2000 Points of Plasma SPAM

Space Marine Chapter Master in Power Armour, 165 pts (Combi-Plasmagun x1; Relic Blade x1)

Sternguard Veteran Squad, 335 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Combi-Plasmagun x7; Plasma gun x2)
1x Sergeant (Combi-Plasmagun x1; Power Fist x1)

1st Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x7; Plasma gun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
1x Sergeant (Combi-Plasmagun x1; Power Fist x1)

2nd Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x7; Plasma gun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
1x Sergeant (Combi-Plasmagun x1; Power Fist x1)

3rd Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x7; Plasma gun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
1x Sergeant (Combi-Plasmagun x1; Power Fist x1)

1st Devastator Squad, 280 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
1x Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasmagun x1)

2nd Devastator Squad, 280 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
1x Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasmagun x1)

3rd Devastator Squad, 280 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Boltgun x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
1x Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasmagun x1)