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It has been discussed before but I'm bringing it up again as I just listened to the 11th Company podcast regarding Veil of Darkness and the Relic.

My view is that the Monolith can only deep strike mishap if it scatters off the board, but never if it lands on buildings or units.
I come to this conclusion from page 83 in the rulebook on the lower left.
"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Allot of you shouted me down stating that deepstrike does not count as movement, so the rule does not apply...
On page 36 it says in regards to deep striking units "In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

So I guess deepstriking counts as movement but isn't movement so the Monolith will mishap if it lands on a unit.


This would mean that in the Relic I could pick up the Relic, then use the Veil of Darkness to deepstrike close to my board edge and next turn walk off the board. Since deepstriking doesn't count as movement.





Eldar Question
From what I've read allies can not benefit from wargear or psychic powers that provide buffs. Archon in a Fortuned unit, Blood Angels FNP bubble and things like that.
What about debuffs?

What if an eldar casts Doom on a unit, then some allies shoot that unit. Can you still re-roll to wound using non eldar units?

Even if the mono was moved to the point that no model is underneath it, if those models are enemy models, it would still mishap because of the 1" rule. That rule says to move the skimmer so that nothing is under it not so that it is an inch away.

This is my understanding base on what you posted, I do not have a brb handy.

I never noticed that rule before. Is there any other way, aside from deep strike, for a skimmer to be forced to end over another model/unit? I know that you can not voluntarily end your move within 1" of an enemy model, or on top of one, even with flyers.

@ 40k-noob: The Drop pods also do not state that they are moved beyond the 1", so would likely mishap by your statement.

Why would you ever play a monolith in its current state? It should be collecting dust on a shelf.

the only thing I have found is that if your opponent lacks solid AV14 kill they can be a real pain, but I would generally never field them(except in low points games to throw things for a loop).

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I never noticed that rule before. Is there any other way, aside from deep strike, for a skimmer to be forced to end over another model/unit? I know that you can not voluntarily end your move within 1" of an enemy model, or on top of one, even with flyers.

Not sure about 6E but in 5E you could tank shock with skimmers, you could jump over a vehicle to tank shock the one next to it, if you were stopped you would move the minimum distance so you could place the model. Only thing I can think of other than deep strike.

Deep Strike is movement. Deep Strike scatter is not movement. The unit does not traverse the terrain, move through units, etc. You place one model down as a marker, then scatter and the unit actually arrives at the end point of the scatter.

If you think scattering is movement, then you must also conclude that no unit can EVER mishap by scattering into Impassible terrain or enemy units, because you're not allowed to move into those things. Since clearly units ARE meant to be able to mishap on those things, then your conclusion about scatter is clearly mistaken.

Not sure about 6E but in 5E you could tank shock with skimmers, you could jump over a vehicle to tank shock the one next to it, if you were stopped you would move the minimum distance so you could place the model. Only thing I can think of other than deep strike.

You have this one exactly right. Tank Shock is the only time you are likely to see a Skimmer forced to end its move over an enemy unit, if it were Stunned or Immobilized just in front of one unit it was trying to Tank Shock, while OVER a second unit. Normally when Stunned or Immobilized the Tank stops 1" in front of the unit. If that position is illegal, you move it backwards to a legal position, per the Skimmer rule you referenced.

This would mean that in the Relic I could pick up the Relic, then use the Veil of Darkness to deepstrike close to my board edge and next turn walk off the board. Since deepstriking doesn't count as movement.

Here you have three two or three rules wrong.

1. A scoring model picks up the Relic if it is in contact with the Relic at the end of the movement phase.
2. Veil is used during the movement phase.
3. If you Veil so that you're no longer touching the Relic, since you have to do that during the movement phase, you're going to be unable to pick up the Relic at the end of the phase when you would have been eligible.
4. You can't walk off the board. The only times units can leave the table are flyers leaving combat airspace, or units Falling Back, which count as destroyed when they do it.
5. Once again, Deep Striking does count as movement.

Eldar Question
From what I've read allies can not benefit from wargear or psychic powers that provide buffs.

That's not, in any way, the rule. You really should read the ally rules, and the FAQs. Many, many different special rules which enhance or benefit units or models in one's army have been errata'd to only apply to units from your own codex (like the Blood Chalice). Others (like, say, Prescience, from Divination) may or may not apply depending on whether the ally in question is a Battle Brother or not. Because they say they work on "friendly" units, and Allies of Convenience and Desperate Allies both count as enemy units.

Archon in a Fortuned unit, Blood Angels FNP bubble and things like that.

An Archon can benefit from Fortune if he is attached to an Eldar unit, as the Eldar unit is what's allowed to be targeted by Fortune. Per the IC rules, the Archon counts as a member of that unit as long as he's attached. Fortune can never target a Dark Eldar unit, though.
The Blood Chalice only works on units from Codex: Blood Angels, because GW errata'd its wording in the FAQ.

What if an eldar casts Doom on a unit, then some allies shoot that unit. Can you still re-roll to wound using non eldar units?

The power is cast on the enemy unit, not on the allied units. It allows ANY unit to re-roll to wound on that unit.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I never noticed that rule before. Is there any other way, aside from deep strike, for a skimmer to be forced to end over another model/unit? I know that you can not voluntarily end your move within 1" of an enemy model, or on top of one, even with flyers.

Not sure about 6E but in 5E you could tank shock with skimmers, you could jump over a vehicle to tank shock the one next to it, if you were stopped you would move the minimum distance so you could place the model. Only thing I can think of other than deep strike.

I can not find any special dispensation for skimmers doing this in 6th. You pick a direction, declare you are going to tank shock, declare the intended movement distance, move, and tank shock the first enemy unit encountered. I did not check the FAQ however, so maybe it is in there.

Another note, the Tank Shock rules specifically have models that end up under the tank move out from under the tank, rather than moving the tank.

Interesting; you're right, the wording seems to have changed and I'm not seeing the option for Skimmers to skip over a unit and Tank Shock one behind it anymore.

I'm not sure what situation in which a skimmer might be forced to end its move over another unit, then.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Here you have three two or three rules wrong.

1. A scoring model picks up the Relic if it is in contact with the Relic at the end of the movement phase.
2. Veil is used during the movement phase.
3. If you Veil so that you're no longer touching the Relic, since you have to do that during the movement phase, you're going to be unable to pick up the Relic at the end of the phase when you would have been eligible.
4. You can't walk off the board. The only times units can leave the table are flyers leaving combat airspace, or units Falling Back, which count as destroyed when they do it.
5. Once again, Deep Striking does count as movement.

Deep Strike is movement. Deep Strike scatter is not movement. The unit does not traverse the terrain, move through units, etc. You place one model down as a marker, then scatter and the unit actually arrives at the end point of the scatter.

If you think scattering is movement, then you must also conclude that no unit can EVER mishap by scattering into Impassible terrain or enemy units, because you're not allowed to move into those things. Since clearly units ARE meant to be able to mishap on those things, then your conclusion about scatter is clearly mistaken.

2 Problems pop up in my head with these statements.
Problem 1
Turn 1, Veil with a unit of Warriors and deep strike so 1 is touching the Relic picking it up
Turn 2, Veil away with the unit taking the Relic with you and then hiding on your side of the board.
You can do this a technically you have not moved more than 6"

If above is wrong
Problem 2
Turn 1, Veil with a unit of Warriors and deep strike so 1 is touching the Relic picking it up
Turn 2, Veil away with the unit taking the Relic with you but place the first deep striking model no more than what normal 6" movement would have allowed, hope for a long scatter as scatter is not movement.
If lucky you will have scattered 12" towards your board edge. Redeploying the Relic a max of 18" away from where it started that turn.


Back to Monolith
As you can place a deep striking model anywhere you like you can place it on top of friendly or enemy units. If you do NOT scatter it floats off the models and lands safely besides them. If you scatter, even just 1", even on top of the same models as before, you mishap as scatter is not movement and the rule does not apply for non "movement" movement.
From your interpretation of deep striking this is completely legit, and it would be one of the few occasions a skimmer could end up on top of friendly or enemy models. Just gotta get lucky with the scatter dice...

For the Veil, since Deep Striking is movement, any Deep Strike of more than 6" would result in dropping the Relic. If the start point and end points of where the Relic moved from and to are more than 6" apart, it gets dropped.

For the Monolith, you choosing to place your Skimmer on top of models, even if it's a legimate position (which many people will dispute), is still not the skimmer being "forced" to end its move there. It's your choice. So it will not invoke the Skimmer rule and will still result in a mishap unless you're lucky enough that it scatters clear. Again, the Scatter is NOT movement, so whether or not it scatters 1" will not help you.

This is even clearer when you read the DS rules, which is that the model is only a marker (place a model where you want the unit to arrive, meaning that model is NOT the model until after the unit has arrived) until after you have arrived DS; the skimmer has not finished its move until after DS has completed, meaning mishaps occur before the skimmer rule could ever kick in.

And yet it is the only known way for a skimmer to be forced to end it's move on top of another model.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
And yet it is the only known way for a skimmer to be forced to end it's move on top of another model.

Actually, because Deep Striking Skimmer will mishap before completing the movement, even that is not possible.
So that Skimmer rule might be currently unnecessary. Most likely it is a remnant of 5e or some rule that got cut out. Or multitude of other options which have nothing to do with Deep Striking.
Good examples of GW editing is that even though there are multiple references like "remember, you still cannot move through your own models", the actual rule that states "you may not move through your own models" is missing from the book.

So far, GW has always been 100% clear when they've wanted to give a model DS protection.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
And yet it is the only known way for a skimmer to be forced to end it's move on top of another model.

And yet the inclusion of a selsom-used rule is not justificiation for its potentially unwarranted use.
I personally think the monolith would mishap, as it is not 100% clear that deep striking counts as movement during the movement phase. thus the aforementioned skimmer rule wouldn't actually get to take effect. If you assume that deep striking is movement, and that when a monolith DS in and that rule takes effect, as someone else pointed out there is nothing stopping drop pods from scattering into mishap, as they may nor be placed 1" or more away necessarily.

The Drop pod mishap might have been me. However everyone I have ever played has treated it as mishap protection. Though it appears that that is not the case.

So if a drop pod would land on an enemy model it mishaps even with that rule about placing it next to a unit it lands on?

Hmm, this is new to me. What about the Tyranid one, does that one mishap as well if it would have landed on friendly or enemy models?

Do you only roll for mishap for the transport? or the cargo as well? If drop pod is destroyed I take it contents are destroyed as well?

What about as true result of forced movement, such as TftD?

Drop pod rules say "... minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle". Because avoid isn't term defined in the rules, the question is what does avoid mean in this case?

There is a very strong argument that if the Drop Pod mishaps, it has not actually avoided the obstacle at all.

Also note that the rule uses wording "avoid the obstacle", instead of "avoid model or impassable terrain" and obstacle is not defined rules term either.

I'm sorry, I might be dense here... but I don't see anywhere that shows me that scatter isn't a part of the deep strike movement. I can't find any evidence that they are separate.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, I might be dense here... but I don't see anywhere that shows me that scatter isn't a part of the deep strike movement. I can't find any evidence that they are separate.

The first "model" placed is by necessity nothing more than a marker until after DS scatter has been resolved. To play otherwise breaks the game.


Assuming the first model is more than a marker to represent the unit and that scatter is actual movement:

The first Model is placed in dangerous or difficult (but not impassible) terrain. It must immediately (before rolling for scatter) take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to scatter (or not, if a hit is rolled), and no model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?

The first model is placed next to dangerous terrain, and then scatters 12" to the other side. If the scatter is movement, the model must take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?

In both of these examples the initial placement is legal in any circumstance, but there are a host of additional rules that would have to be written to cover the "more than a marker", and "scatter is actual movement" positions.

If the initial model is simply a marker until scatter is resolved, then the deepstrike rules work fine as written with no house-ruling needed. This also means that the initial placement can be on/in impassible terrain and enemy units, as it does not interact with the game at all until after the scatter roll.

Thanks Lorehat.

 Lordhat wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, I might be dense here... but I don't see anywhere that shows me that scatter isn't a part of the deep strike movement. I can't find any evidence that they are separate.

The first "model" placed is by necessity nothing more than a marker until after DS scatter has been resolved. To play otherwise breaks the game.


Assuming the first model is more than a marker to represent the unit and that scatter is actual movement:

The first Model is placed in dangerous or difficult (but not impassible) terrain. It must immediately (before rolling for scatter) take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to scatter (or not, if a hit is rolled), and no model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?

The first model is placed next to dangerous terrain, and then scatters 12" to the other side. If the scatter is movement, the model must take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?

In both of these examples the initial placement is legal in any circumstance, but there are a host of additional rules that would have to be written to cover the "more than a marker", and "scatter is actual movement" positions.

If the initial model is simply a marker until scatter is resolved, then the deepstrike rules work fine as written with no house-ruling needed. This also means that the initial placement can be on/in impassible terrain and enemy units, as it does not interact with the game at all until after the scatter roll.

But since the it is a marker and not the model, the scatter is not actaully the movement, but marks the end of the movement as the model is not on the board until after scatter is resolved.

As far as the skimmer rule/DS interaction is concerned, DS is movement as you are counted as moving whether or not you scatter. The scatter would be the thing that would force you to end your move over models.

As someone has already pointed out, unfortunately you are not actually on the board till the end of DS is completed which is interrupted by the mishap.

As far as still mishapping from being within one inch.. slippery slope as Drop pod guidance doesn't move you an inch away either RAW.

It moves you to avoid the "obstacle", raw. A mishap is certainly an obstacle

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It moves you to avoid the "obstacle", raw. A mishap is certainly an obstacle

It could be considered an obstacle, but is not necessarily an obstacle as defined by the inertial guidance rule. It is an effect because you are to close to an actual obstacle(the enemy model). Note that everyone I have ever played has treated it as mishap protection, but as others have stated unless GW gives explicit permission to avoid a mishap, it does not get to avoid a mishap. So RAW it does not avoid a mishap, just the models it landed on.

The inertial guidance rule: "Should a drop pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model(friend or foe!) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle."

The obstacle is the model not the mishap rule. Thus the minimum reduction would leave the drop pod within 1" of an enemy model, and thus mishap.