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I am sure this kind of thing has been discussed before but I can't figure it out.

He effectively took 3 legions out of the fight with the Istvaan campaign.
Also he had the Ultras and Space Wolves tied up. Also didn't he send orders to distract the Blood Angels too?

I am not familiar with all the fluff so far and it gets a little hazy in the details during the middle part of the war.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).

Anyone shed some light on it?

Several Loyal Legions were en route to Terra - including the largest, the Ultramarines, then Horus went and got himself killed. Even the most insane Traitor could see it's very much a case of 'better luck next time' at that point.

Edit: Also Imperial forces were unified and working together. Traitors were not. For example the Emperors Children spent the whole battle rounding up civilians to err... play with.

But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?

Simple.
Horus panicked.
He had the defenders on the ropes.

Then word came of the imminent arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.
Being caught between the rock of the Imperial Palace and the hard place of being attacked in the rear by the other two most accomplished tacticians in the Imperium was a bad place to be, so he lowered his flagship and its shields in an attempt to lure the Emperor on board. This worked, but the outcome was a draw - both died.

The other version is that he didn't lose. He got killed, sure, but since the demise of the Emperor, the Imperium (and mankind with it) has been dying a 10,000 year long, slow agonising death.

Zanderchief wrote:
But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?

UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.

 DarthMarko wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?

UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....

Actually UM were en route to Terra, at least in the old fluff. They were no where near though, weeks, even months away, but still coming.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.

Ah, head in the sand. Always works. The Heresy series does a really good job of telling the origins of the Legions from a neutral 'novel' point of view, which works well when compared to the very (deliberately) biased view of the codexes. For example, though they added masses to the fluff of the Alpha Legion, none of it directly contradicts the fluff in any recent Chaos codex. Though there are some changes, and some timeline..um..incidents, I can't think of that many instances where the Codex info has actualy been changed...

I think that both of the chapters you mentioned have had a huge benefit in terms of believable fluff from the HH series. The Thousand Sons aren't just some movie evil-villains or Space Egyptians and are now properly fleshed out with an interesting story. The Space Wolves have finally dropped the stupid cartoon Space Viking image when Dan Abnett actually decided to research into real Norse custom, real history, and apply this to how a Legion might realistically exist like that. I think both of them are vastly more believable and interesting then before the Heresy series.

Easy: because three remaining Space Marine Legions ( SW, DA, UM ) were on route to Terra after defeating the Legions that Horus sent to disrupt them.
With the arrival of three loyal Legion the victory for loyalists would be assured and it was then when Horus took a gamble of lowering his shields and challenging the Emperor for one final duel with the galaxy at stake ( because seriously, when you have millions of men, marines and daemons battling for the domination of the galaxy, they TOTALLY will stop just because their general is dead).

Horus was erased from existence but not before he eat Emperor so badly he was put to golden throne to survive.

Zanderchief wrote:
I am sure this kind of thing has been discussed before but I can't figure it out.

He effectively took 3 legions out of the fight with the Istvaan campaign.
Also he had the Ultras and Space Wolves tied up. Also didn't he send orders to distract the Blood Angels too?

I am not familiar with all the fluff so far and it gets a little hazy in the details during the middle part of the war.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).

Anyone shed some light on it?

The continuing HH series is starting to flesh this out.

The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars were at Terra, in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage). The Scars and Fists were practically at full strength. The Blood Angels were a large Legion but had also suffered large losses.

All nine Traitor Legions were present at the siege, but with differing strengths. The Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children had all lost about a third of their strength when purging their Legions (according to FW:Betrayal). The new Betrayer novel seems to point the World Eaters towards being seriously under-strength by the time of the siege, and of course the Emperor's Children ignored a lot of the fighting and just attacked civilian areas. The Word Bearers are a huge legion, but also suffer massive losses at Calth, and though the Thousand Sons weren't purged, they were always a small legion, and even smaller once the Space Wolves had finished with them.

That leaves the Alpha Legion and Night Lords (both at full strength but whose 'loyalty' to Horus & Chaos is pretty questionable) and the Iron Warriors (who were just betrayed by Fulgrim and have no love of Chaos anyway).

Horus plan was from start based on a fast success when heading for Terra, he acknowledged himself his inability to withstand the gathered might of the loyalists and loyalists does include just every human being and everything created from a human life-form.

The warmaster was screwed from his first steps onward. Chaos never considered to stick with their promises...
So Horus lost everything. His existance, his reputation, and got....not even a crappy T_shirt...

Like stated in other posts, reinforcements were incoming and Horus and his treacherous followers couldn't afford a lenghty battle as sooner or later the discipline of the loyalists would overcome the lack thereof of the traitors.
Horus chose the duel to "win".
He couldn't trust his allies and one or two Legions to would be enough to ruin the siege of Terra. They may not just outright beat the traitors, but they would buy the time for more reinforcements to arrive.
Now if someone intends to put Gulliman in a role there, a job as the master logistican behind such reinforcements seems obvious. Would Horus believe he could stand against a counter force his logistics loving brother has gathered?
I think not.
This is a case where an army has to achieve a goal in a given time-frame before it gets encircled and brought low.

Remember also Horus wanted to chose the time and place of battle, to move the scales in his favor beforehand.
Didn't fight at Istvaan 1 vs 1, rather 9 vs 3. Same was planned for Terra as the presence of the Blood Angels and White Scars wasn't what Horus wanted. His tactic looks like hit them hard and fast, something that can fail.

 DarthMarko wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?

UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....

Hahaha. Yeah and Robute will eventually be the one saving Empy's ass, then BL will do a complete 180 due to the Ultra IRL, which unlike the Ultras of wh40k. ain't nice people at all. Then they will realize the Ultras being a negative thing and they will retcon them out of existence in order to escape accusations of being racist.

So if hard and fast was how he liked it (boom boom) then why not just drop on to Terra first, after giving the loyalist armies errands to run. Like fetching the milk at end-o-galaxy store.

Zanderchief wrote:
So if hard and fast was how he liked it (boom boom) then why not just drop on to Terra first, after giving the loyalist armies errands to run. Like fetching the milk at end-o-galaxy store.

Like this http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/comic-110.html or hubris got to him. He basically thought he was invincible and nothing could best him.

Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?

Zanderchief wrote:
Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?

Well it's my interpretation, and he might have taken the risk just to best the ultimate being in existence. Of course he was a great general, but rushed as he was and full of pride, I honestly think he believed he could beat the ultimate man in single combat so he lowered the shields.

Hehe i like you refs to the Emp being the ultimate being and the ultimate man. He now sounds like an OTT wrestler who uses these phrases :-)

Actually i get that he had to rush things but i was suprised that the traitors were not a bit better than they are made out to be. Every one of them lost their battles except the drop site it seems.

Although i don't know how any World Eaters at all survived. There must have been about 5 of them left!!

Zanderchief wrote:
Hehe i like you refs to the Emp being the ultimate being and the ultimate man. He now sounds like an OTT wrestler who uses these phrases :-)

Actually i get that he had to rush things but i was suprised that the traitors were not a bit better than they are made out to be. Every one of them lost their battles except the drop site it seems.

Although i don't know how any World Eaters at all survived. There must have been about 5 of them left!!

Actually Empy used the phrases I mentioned. He did so when Lorgar was told to stop worshiping him. That as you mentioned seems like Empy have a past within WWE. He told Lorgar he was the ultimate man and should be revered as such, but not worshiped, then he turned to Robute telling him to demolish the cathedrals of Lorgar. Just that get me all giggly hehe, thinking of Empy going off like the OTT wrestler you mentioned. For proof just look at the belief-system of the Space Marines hehe.

Yeah the traitors seems to lose even when they shall win. In Codex Space Marines the Ultramarines is out-everything against the Alphas, and still win. How? They get angry.

World Eaters are flandarized too much. Khorne is as much planning as he is mindless slaughter. I'm of the impression that the Khornate fanatics in general go nuts as a concious choice, rather than being berzerk all the time. That brings up the question: How the hell can they board a vessel to invade something?

 Beaviz81 wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?

Well it's my interpretation, and he might have taken the risk just to best the ultimate being in existence. Of course he was a great general, but rushed as he was and full of pride, I honestly think he believed he could beat the ultimate man in single combat so he lowered the shields.

Listen to the audio drama Warmaster.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)

I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.

Lowering his shields was a brilliant move on Horus's part. The main goal of the siege of Terra, I think, was to kill the Emperor. The main obstacle was the fortified palace. Horus negated that obstacle by luring the Emperor to fight on his own terms. At the same time, this was a major gamble. It was time to walk the walk, so to speak. Horus thought he could replace the Emperor but how would he fair mano a mano? And, all things considered, he did pretty damn well.

The real question is not "why did Horus fail?" but rather "how did he get so far?" The answer is, of course, that he was an absolute genius.

Beaviz81 wrote:World Eaters are flandarized too much. Khorne is as much planning as he is mindless slaughter. I'm of the impression that the Khornate fanatics in general go nuts as a concious choice, rather than being berzerk all the time. That brings up the question: How the hell can they board a vessel to invade something?

The new 'Betrayer' novel actually does this really well - fills them out quite nicely. They can't help going nuts but they're not frothing loonies either. Basically,



Add to this that

Manchu wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)

I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.

I agree - the Imperial Palace is the deciding factor. There's another thread going on about Legion sizes, and some good numbers were dug up. This is guesswork based on what little we know, but we could estimate as follows..

Imperial Fists - large legion - 180,000
Blood Angels - mid/large legion, but battered - 100,000
White Scars - mid size legion - 100,000
En-route are the Dark Angels (est. around 100,000) and Space Wolves (est. around 60,000)

Sons of Horus - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 100,000
World Eaters - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors, battered - 80,000
Emperor's Children - mid size legion, culled almost 1/2 of their warriors - 60,000
Death Guard - mid/small legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 60,000
Word Bearers - mid/large legion, 1/2 killed at Calth - 75,000
Then, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion (est maybe 90-110,000 each), but we don't know how many actually go to Terra. Estimate half, so 150,000

Loyalist 380,000 and a massive fortress, with 160,000 more on their way
Traitor 625,000 basic, up to about 750,000 if lots of Iron Warriors and Word Bearers showed up.

Sounds like the Traitors would be in a pretty bad position if the DA and SW turned up....

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.

Ah, head in the sand. Always works. The Heresy series does a really good job of telling the origins of the Legions from a neutral 'novel' point of view, which works well when compared to the very (deliberately) biased view of the codexes. For example, though they added masses to the fluff of the Alpha Legion, none of it directly contradicts the fluff in any recent Chaos codex. Though there are some changes, and some timeline..um..incidents, I can't think of that many instances where the Codex info has actualy been changed...

I think that both of the chapters you mentioned have had a huge benefit in terms of believable fluff from the HH series. The Thousand Sons aren't just some movie evil-villains or Space Egyptians and are now properly fleshed out with an interesting story. The Space Wolves have finally dropped the stupid cartoon Space Viking image when Dan Abnett actually decided to research into real Norse custom, real history, and apply this to how a Legion might realistically exist like that. I think both of them are vastly more believable and interesting then before the Heresy series.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, then. I think the HH series does a terrible job, both of having a neutral POV, and in describing and characterising the Primarchs and their Legions (with the exception of Fulgrim, which I thought was actually a reasonably decent book).
In fact, I think the entire series was a bad idea to begin with.
I actually liked the 40K background before, when the events of the Horus Heresy, while described in some detail for us, the reader, was mostly a dimly remembered past that no one really knew the specifics of. IMO, it should have remained that way. The Index Astartes series was about as detailed as it should have gotten, IMO. Some more info on some of the First Foundings would have been nice, but no more than that.
I like the "barbarian army in space" image of the Space Wolves. I liked that they were one of the few factions in 40K who could genuinely be described as "good guys" (along with the Salamanders) without the elsewhere completely prevalent grimdark. Also, from Abnett I didn't Viking vibe at all, except a little bit from their Rune Priest. (On a separate note, I also dislike how they turned from vikings in space to werewolves in space in the latest codex - a case of someone not understanding they're called space wolves because vikings were called the wolves of the sea in medieval times methinks.)
As for the Sons, their origin was never described as moustache-twirling villains. Theirs was always a tale of a tragic fall caused by a misunderstanding, of being set up by a being they dealt with with hidden agendas and everything. That's what I like about them.

I absolutely loathe the HH series not just for its arbitrary changes (and there are quite a lot), but for the terrible quality of writing, the complete lack of a decent climax and conclusion in, well, just about all the books. If I have to choose between head in the sand and losing my enjoyment of a lot of the 40K background, then head in the sand it is.

Novels can never have a "neutral" PoV anyways. Invariably, the author - a human being with his or her own personal opinions on how something works or what is cool and how far you can go - will leave their mark on a story. Just look at all the other novels out there and how they contradict each other or the source material.

Personally, the only thing *I* consider to be truly neutral when it comes to 40k (apart from technical descriptions, but GW doesn't seem to publish them anymore anyways) are the cold hard stats and numbers of the game, who do not distinguish between protagonist or antagonist - traits that exist only in stories, but not on the battlefield. Which is exactly why GW felt that creating Black Library as a separate division was necessary. As Dan Abnett explained in an interview, you can't write a good story with "neutral" rules. Heroes have to survive against the odds and overcome epic obstacles, regardless of whatever chance they should actually have. That's the magic people want to read about, and you know it.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)

I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.

I agree - the Imperial Palace is the deciding factor. There's another thread going on about Legion sizes, and some good numbers were dug up. This is guesswork based on what little we know, but we could estimate as follows..

Imperial Fists - large legion - 180,000
Blood Angels - mid/large legion, but battered - 100,000
White Scars - mid size legion - 100,000
En-route are the Dark Angels (est. around 100,000) and Space Wolves (est. around 60,000)

Sons of Horus - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 100,000
World Eaters - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors, battered - 80,000
Emperor's Children - mid size legion, culled almost 1/2 of their warriors - 60,000
Death Guard - mid/small legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 60,000
Word Bearers - mid/large legion, 1/2 killed at Calth - 75,000
Then, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion (est maybe 90-110,000 each), but we don't know how many actually go to Terra. Estimate half, so 150,000

Loyalist 380,000 and a massive fortress, with 160,000 more on their way
Traitor 625,000

Sounds like the Traitors would be in a pretty bad position if the DA and SW turned up....

Completely agree with your post(s) ArbitorIan, although Shadows of Treachery shows the Night Lords and Imperial Fists as having large losses (I'm sure someone could go through the book and provide exact numbers if you wish).
IIRC Dan Abnett also stated the Word Bearers as about 200,000 strong and having 50,000 present at the Battle of Calth/events of KNF (I don't know what happens in Betrayer, yet). For reference, I seem to recall this being the vid where he stated the Ultramarines as the largest Legion and about 250,000. I think those were the numbers...

The Traitors also seemed to have more non-Space Marine support, such as Daemons, Cultists, Titans etc. and over twice as many Primarchs. However, the Imperial Palace had the Custodes and I'd imagine the Dark Angels to be a large Legion (albeit there are those on Caliban).

However, as you said, The Siege of Terra was the decisive factor IMHO. Horus had been dominating the Imperials until then, with some of his plans falling through at the pivotal moment (such as Calth and Signus), but it really fell apart at the Palace. To me, things point to the Palace being much harder to break than anticipated which - due to the incoming Imperial Reinforcements - forced Horus' hand.

In the most recent short story compilation, in the discussion between Dorn and Sigismund, they consider the posibility that Horus could just stay out in the galactic rim and bleed the Imperium until there was nothing left, but it wasn't in his character not to make the fight personal. He was nothing if not prone to grand-standing.



And why do people keep neglecting to mention the fact that the Ultramarines were also en route to Terra? Hell, the latest books give pretty clear indication that Guilliman more or less orchestrated the entire counter-offensive.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.

I've been much happier since I did that.

 Manchu wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)

I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.

Lowering his shields was a brilliant move on Horus's part. The main goal of the siege of Terra, I think, was to kill the Emperor. The main obstacle was the fortified palace. Horus negated that obstacle by luring the Emperor to fight on his own terms. At the same time, this was a major gamble. It was time to walk the walk, so to speak. Horus thought he could replace the Emperor but how would he fair mano a mano? And, all things considered, he did pretty damn well.

The real question is not "why did Horus fail?" but rather "how did he get so far?" The answer is, of course, that he was an absolute genius.

Horus was a fool, and so was the Emprah. The former could have simply burned the planet to crisp ( 30k weaponry is certainly capable of utterly devastating a planet especialy if we consider things like cyclonic torpedos and the like ) while the Carriongod, instead of acting like a braindamaged berserker, could have simply teleported a warhead on Horus now unshielded ship.
Of course, epic duels are always preferable to efficiency in 40k and the "military genius" of most characters usualy tends to remain an informed ability.

 Omegus wrote:
And why do people keep neglecting to mention the fact that the Ultramarines were also en route to Terra? Hell, the latest books give pretty clear indication that Guilliman more or less orchestrated the entire counter-offensive.

Personally, I've not mentioned it because I don't know if this will change under Betrayer and Unremembered Empire.

There are more sources stating they were on their way, and only one WD source simply omitting them entirely. Given that in the recent HH novels, Guilliman has been coordinating (or attempting to coordinate... guys like Lion have proven uncooperative) the entire counter-offensive, it seems likely he would be on the way as well.

At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.

The warhead is a good idea though.



When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)