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For me I've simply stopped taking on new armies(as much as I'd like to continue) and am now only buying single models that I want to paint up for the love of painting.

I'll end up rounding out my Red Hunters to 2k and that will be it for a long time on doing any armies.

It is stuff like this though that makes the decision to buy recasts from China and Russia so much easier.

IMO GW is too small a company to be publicly traded. What was their profit in 2011, like 19 million? Hardly enough to make any real financial impact for investors. Hobby Lobby is a damn large company comparatively and they are still private.

I can think of a ton of multi million dollar companies that are privately held and are able to maintain truly competitive prices in their markets.

An example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger
281 stores, 465 million a year in revenue, and they don't pay a single employee minimum wage(starting in CA is now $12.5/hr for them, instead of the state min of $8).

And you ask anyone in that companies market how they rank. They are easily in the top 3 fast food restaurants of their market, beating out bigger publicly traded companies in quality and customer loyalty. And their prices are STILL competitive with major companies. A "Double Double" is $3.20(double cheeseburger) compared to any double burger from Carl's Jr/Hardees at the same or higher prices.

If a company like that can maintain itself and actually grow then why can't GW?

/rant

I got priced out about a year ago or so, when I first saw prices for the Tyrannofex/Tervigon, and the price of a Stormraven. I can't justify that.

I will buy a couple models piecemeal for the enjoyment of painting, but I sure won't be buying a new army any time soon. I turned my Hordes Trolls into an Ogre Kingdoms army to get some use out of them, and I'll buy a couple GW things that there isn't an equivalent for like the Stonehorn.

But yeah, it is ridiculous.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
yes, 6th ed officially did it for me, as the codex's got so expensive, the models are not my style and I dislike the gameplay
(oh and I hate it when the GW staff try and sell me things like I am some dumb noob, even after you tell them you've been playing for 12 years and don't need anymore of X army but they still try and say you do)
it got so expensive I couldn't afford to play it nowadays, I now have to go online, to second hand markets to buy it.
Even if I wanted it new, 150 dollars (and then 50 or so for the codex to go with it) to get the most recent LotR thing...god no

I should give Warmachine a try... I didn't much like Trollbloods but I think Minions might be a better way to go

Just wondering, this sort of attitude. You never complained about the rules at all, merely, the prices, so I'm going out on a limb that you don't still mind playing the game.

As you said, you have been playing for 12 years. You dislike it when staff pressure you to buy more, because you don't need to buy more.

How are you 'priced out'? The most you're doing is buying a few kits and a couple of books when there's an edition changeover and, I'd imagine, if anything new caught your eye.

Yet, you are interested in starting a whole new game - one with models jsut as expensive as GW - where you will be buying entire armies from scratch.

I see this sort of statement all the time, and I just don't get it. Veterans that have been playing long enough that you have everything they need outside of any new releases they might want, yet are perfectly happy to consider trying a game where they'd be spending bucketloads just as startup costs, just to 'stick it to em' for charging... as much as they're going to be paying for the other game.

I'm no stranger to trying new games due to rising prices, but I though the idea was to move to a game that's actually cheaper, not one that's going to cost you roughly the same. That's why I started Infinity.

I want to like the games, I tried, I gave them a chance and I couldn't warm up to them (40k and to a lesser extent fantasy)
I've played most every army in both games
I had hoped the game would evolve but its pushed more and more into space marines, skulls and unbalanced games
I am a painter/modeler first, pretty much always have been, and the new ones just don't do it for me (and are overpriced)
I do try and play the games but having to buy new books for 3 systems, not something I want to do (even for 1 system, I would need a few codex's, and a rulebook for 6th since I've not played it enough where I have memorized everything)
I find it to be a shame, it was a game i really enjoyed, I will most likely play 3rd ed with a select group of people I know and leave 6th ed alone

 Kingsley wrote:

BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures.

The post I just quoted was from 1992. Some things never change.

Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

Where did those "younger players" get the money for expensive miniatures indeed? Looks like some of them got jobs, went to college, got jobs and continued to pay their Gw tax for a decade or so.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot.

That is an extremely expensive Falcon. I remember getting something similar years ago for a Birthday/Christmas and it being in the $40-$50 range. It was around the time they started producing Star Wars 3.5 inch figures again. Looking at it, I'd be willing to bet that it is the same thing that has just been reissued over and over. Toys in general have gone up a lot. I remember looking at the action figures that used to be $3.99 - $4.99 and being shocked that they're now $9.99-$14.99.

The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.


Forgeworld's prices have changed minimally as far as I can remember, they've generally increased in line with inflation. For example, DKoK infantry were 32 Pounds when released 7 years ago in 2006. They're 37 Pounds now. That's pretty much exactly in line with inflation of between 2 and 3 percent each year, or about a 15/16% price increase, and thus, their affordability hasn't really changed one way or another, their purchase relative to income 7 years ago is the same.

Cadian Guardsmen used to be $30 for 20 7 years ago. They're now $29 for 10, a 193% price increase over the same period of time, increasing at a yearly rate more than triple that of inflation, thus they're significantly more expensive in real terms than they were and cost a whole lot more as a fraction of ones income relative to what they would have previously cost.

Im starting to fade on GW fast. The prices are one thing but most of what they are producing at the moment is very underwhelming. IF i was being blown away by the current ranges i could prehaps see my way to dropping the money they ask for on their plastic crack, but im not.

Ill be continuing to work on my Marines and i have an unassembled Dark Eldar army just waiting to be putting together that im looking forwards to getting round to. My Tyrandis are getting sold I bought Dark Vengeance and doubled up on the chaos as i thought they were great models. I was bitterly disappointed by the actual chaos range that came out and since then ive seen nothing from GW that i woudl drop money on. I refuse to buy FC so that limits me anyway.

So its not really that im priced out by GW, more that there are many other companiews out there more deserving of my hobby funds. I tend to veer to the skirmish side of things these days gaming wise and really cant see me doing much more than finishing off my GW armies i already have.

nkelsch wrote:
Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

The latter.

I mostly paint, so my expenditure is much less than those that play. I have found myself buying much less recently. I will not stop picking things up from GW but i will be more selective on what i get. I am going more in to scale models.

My buddies and I all stopped buying and even playing GW games. I'd safely say that we haven't played Warhammer, in either form, in 7-8 months. Nobody here misses it. Many have sold their models, and I just haven't gotten around to it, but I intend to. Oh well. It was fun, but it just isn't for me anymore. I'm with Ouze-I quit when 6th came out (stopped playing before it hit, but still bought the book, hoping to reinvigorate). The prices did stink, but I kept up with them. Chaos was going to be the "make or break" for me, and it didn't make it. The new models all look like garbage, save 1 or 2, DA aren't shaping up to be much better (less Power Ranger-y though), and I'm not even excited for my favorite army's upcoming release anymore (Daemons). Time to face facts: GW finally crashed down for me. I'm pretty much done with them.

Sometimes, in my case it is not the question of how much the models cost, it is the conviction of where you are going to spend it that amount of money. The Corporation will always have the hard core and the sheeple buy the product, but like many who have posted in here and the past the cost of playing this game is going beyond what the average person is willing to pay. From me? 20 bucks a month goes to GW product, whereas other companies get a whole lot more.

Guess I'll be buying less models in the future.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.

I actually did the math on this a while back and was surprised to find that I would pay *less* money for my Marines nowadays than I would have back in 2004, once you adjusted for inflation-- the availability of core units like Dreadnoughts and Tactical Marines in extremely cheap starter sets mitigated the slight price increase above inflation that did occur.

This might not hold true for all armies-- as you mention, basic Guardsmen have become rather expensive of late relative to their historical prices, but I for one found that GW's "rampant price increases" were overblown in the extreme.

That said, paying 75 USD for a product that looks similar to a Stormtalon I could get for 45.50 seems somewhat questionable. I'll have to see the new kit in person to be sure, but that could well be one that I don't consider worth the asking price. If so, I will:

a) not be buying the product
b) be sending GW a nicely-worded letter explaining why I won't be buying
c) be explaining my reasoning to others and encouraging those who agree to do the same

If we don't provide feedback to GW, how will they know what to improve? Note that step A is much more important than steps B or C-- if people buy the product in sufficient numbers, GW will continue pricing things at that level regardless of what feedback says. Remember, GW wants to price its offerings to the highest level that the market can bear-- only when people stop buying will GW stop raising prices.

 Ouze wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

The latter.

Those old threads are hilarious... Nothing has changed.

I do remember the animosity between RPG players and war gamers back then...

The last boxed set I bought was Assault Terminators, over a year and a half ago I guess in that you can figure out what my situation on "pricing out" is.
My local (non-GW) gaming club is still going fairly well but we all know that at the rate GW is raising their prices, we inevitably are doomed. I don't see how any new members are going to be coaxed by GW into buying little overexpensive plastic Space men and aliens

Nah, not priced out for me. I balance used and new models. I'm having no issue. Im just patient and try to avoid impulse buys.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.

I actually did the math on this a while back and was surprised to find that I would pay *less* money for my Marines nowadays than I would have back in 2004, once you adjusted for inflation-- the availability of core units like Dreadnoughts and Tactical Marines in extremely cheap starter sets mitigated the slight price increase above inflation that did occur.

This might not hold true for all armies-- as you mention, basic Guardsmen have become rather expensive of late relative to their historical prices, but I for one found that GW's "rampant price increases" were overblown in the extreme.

That said, paying 75 USD for a product that looks similar to a Stormtalon I could get for 45.50 seems somewhat questionable. I'll have to see the new kit in person to be sure, but that could well be one that I don't consider worth the asking price. If so, I will:

a) not be buying the product
b) be sending GW a nicely-worded letter explaining why I won't be buying
c) be explaining my reasoning to others and encouraging those who agree to do the same

If we don't provide feedback to GW, how will they know what to improve? Note that step A is much more important than steps B or C-- if people buy the product in sufficient numbers, GW will continue pricing things at that level regardless of what feedback says. Remember, GW wants to price its offerings to the highest level that the market can bear-- only when people stop buying will GW stop raising prices.

Here's what I look at:

Minimum wage when I started working vs. the cost of a standard box regiment
Minimum wage now vs. the cost of the same # of models in their current iteration.
And for fun we could do some in between numbers as well.

So, in 2001 when I started working, California's minimum wage was $6.25. A regiment back then was 20 models for $25, $1.25/model. It took me 4 hours of work to afford that.
Today, that same box is $24.75 for 10 models, $2.48/model. CA minimum wage now is $8/hr. So to earn the same 20 models now takes 6.19 hours. More than a 50% increase in time needed to earn the same models after already covering the change in wages.

If teenagers are the target audience, then minimum wage is 99% of the time what they make. So kids now can afford fewer models than kids 12 years ago.

Then there is me. I make way more now than I did 12 years ago, and yet GW insists that I'm not their target demo, and as such they ignore my spending habits in favor of the children with very limited resources. Which is fine by me. If GW doesn't want my money, I have other hobbies and other companies that do. When the decision for me comes down to starting a new army or expanding my drumset, toy soldiers lose, and at these prices that is what GW has to compete with for me. It was fine when I could run and grab a few models each week to add to the pile, but that cost has raised to the point where there are other things I feel are more worthy of such high monetary values.

I haven't been so much 'priced out' as lost interest in 40k thanks to a combination of price increases, power creep and mediocre models. I got sick of getting my ass kicked by razorspam mid 5th and between the price of the 6th rulebook and the 'meh' chaos release I haven't gotten back in.
I do still enjoy fantasy though, but then I enjoy the rules more there.


I think the more important part of this discussion is not 'have I had to quit because of price rises?' but rather 'are people no longer getting into the hobby because of the entry price?'. GW rely on new blood to stay profitable, they then raise prices when less people enter the hobby to make up for it, what happens when no one enters the hobby because the entry cost is way too high?

I think like most people I will complain from time to time but ultimately still give in and buy at the current prices, then again I never pay retail.

Then there is me. I make way more now than I did 12 years ago, and yet GW insists that I'm not their target demo, and as such they ignore my spending habits in favor of the children with very limited resources. Which is fine by me. If GW doesn't want my money, I have other hobbies and other companies that do. When the decision for me comes down to starting a new army or expanding my drumset, toy soldiers lose, and at these prices that is what GW has to compete with for me. It was fine when I could run and grab a few models each week to add to the pile, but that cost has raised to the point where there are other things I feel are more worthy of such high monetary values.

You know Marvel had a similar target audience in the 90's. Ignored the people who actually had the money. Their market crashed and they went bankrupt in 97 (I believe). Finally they lived on their IP's on licensing (like films and merchandise). There core products were essentially not front line profitable products as they lost a lot of there customer base to other types of entertainment. Until finally they were bought out by "the evil mouse syndicate" for a paltry 4 billion (look what Disney purchased for Lucas Arts recently).

Similar fate happened to TSR. Similar fate could happen GW since they are so screwing up with the Chapter House Lawsuit at this moment. They lose the case they essentially lose their strangle hold on how they dictate their actions to others in there sphere of influence. Something to think about about.

But in the end it comes down to how much money people have. As I have stated before and will state again. We in the US are now the Lost Generation. I'll use this url from Australia to get my point across.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/the-lost-generation-in-the-us-economy/2012/10/23/

We do not (in the US) have the buying power like we did 10 years ago. Those are the cold hard facts.
And as a business, by GW actions, they tell me that they are too ignorant of those facts.
But many businesses and those that are fighting for the entertainment dollar are not.

When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for only slightly more than buying a brand new GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

EDIT: Had to fix the price bit because I'm an idiot and can't do math.

I don't mind expensive models that much - I have plenty to paint and there are lots of alternatives and ways to scratchbuild and convert your own stuff. Plus, when I do buy gw, the quality is outstanding, so you are getting something for your money.

The killer for me is $50 codexes. I have a lot of armies. I have armies I might only play 5 times before they get updated (looking at you, Chaos!), if the last edition is any guide. GW wants me to pay $10 PER GAME, for rules that are NOT manifestly high quality in the same way that the models are. That means I won't buy the codex for most of my armies, which means I won't buy new models for those armies. Its not forcing me out of the hobby, per se, but it is cutting me back.

Well, I'd say there's a variety of factors involved. I haven't bought a GW model in a long time, around a year now, and I stopped playing altogether shortly after 6th edition came out. I just really do not like the direction 6th edition is moving in, and the game is no longer fun. GW's absurdly increasing prices and silly models only makes the situation worse. Ouze describes it perfectly:

 Ouze wrote:

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

Granted, I'm not entirely divorced from 40k. I'd consider coming back in a few years if 7th edition is any good (not entirely likely, but you never know), but I don't really see myself buying anymore models. GW's models have always been somewhat silly or over the top, but lately, it's gotten to points of ridiculousness. A lot of stuff just looks really stupid. They have a few gems every once in a while (DV chosen look amazing), but for the most part, I find myself seeing more to laugh at with each release than to admire.

What's more, the prices. Granted, GW's always been expensive, but these days, I know that I can't buy a GW model without feeling like I've been had. It's not a matter of affording the models, I can do that easily enough, it's that I feel I'd have to be a complete idiot to actually pay GW's prices. So I don't.

There are miniature companies out there that make really expensive miniatures that I'm willing to pay for (Helloooooo Kingdom Death!), but in those cases, I'm expecting the absolute best. When I buy a Kingdom Death miniature, I know that I'm paying a lot, but I know that I'm getting a lot for it. Beautiful proportions ("heroic" proportions are a relic from days gone by that needs to die), beautiful sculpts, and incredible quality are what I pay for. For as much as GW likes to flaunt the idea of being the "luxury miniature company" in the business, they simply don't deliver at that level. This goes doubly for finecast.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

If this follows previous years' pattern, the above prices will end up matching similar boxes in other marine lines as well after the spring price increase (i.e. $60 terminator boxes for all marines)..

The last price rise in our local non-GW shops really. A Battleforce went from $170 to $220 and that made it just not worth it any more. Playing Eldar, just got out of hand cost-wise.

I did ok buying Space Marines because so many people and starter sets involved Space Marines. They were cheap to buy 2nd hand and bulk out, but you'd be stuck with limited options. (Either a flamer or melta and a missile launcher).

Virtually everything I have bought in the past while since buying the Battleforce at $170 have been items on sale. Paying $60ish for Falcons instead of $100-110. I picked up some old rangers from a shop that had sat there for 2 or so years at full price though with the introduction of 6th edition since they were being hailed as a viable option.

But even the starter games have got to points where you question the viability of the game. People who bought in to Battle for Macragge at $90, Brother bought Assault on Black Reach at less than $110, I got it for $135, within a year it was $180, now its $200+ for Dark Vengeance. I saved $50 buying the 6th ed rule book online.

Everything GW has been priced at points where it seems pointless playing. Maybe $300 for the basic set up of things needed to play 500 points. Warmachine seems to have a sizeable army available at the same price. GW single blister pack mini's are an average of $30+ starting price, Warmachine/Hordes figures on blisters cost $10-20. (And tend to look much much better IMO).

I think for people who play Chaos and Space Marines its not too harsh a game to play, lots of Space Marine mini's can be had 2nd hand which can be used to make up either army. Owning 5 or 10 Marines with bolters and fielding them is fine, its legal. Plenty of Eldar guardians can come up for sale, but if you have no support platform heavy weapon, they aren't legal to play and the chances of finding the support weapons are small.
The more options added, or restrictions to fielding a unit starts to make the game harder to play and GW do make it kind of hard, most battle forces seem to give you the 2 troops choices required (at minimum size) but you need to buy an HQ separate and a 2nd transport and the codex.

The prices are also detrimental because it costs so much to buy in and play for player 1, if player 2 has more money they can field units which you could end up having nothing at all which can damage them. Or between editions or Codex books, even FAQs, your options become invalid.

I'm sorry, but I've hit the wall since I started the hobby more than a year ago, I have not bought a single model directly from GW since I started due to prices....yet I have 5000 points of guard and chaos. How? All second hand trading and low priced deals for NOS stuff from people getting out of the hobby. In terms of new books I'm not afraid to admit I have most things on pdf. You can stay in hobby if your willing to trade but some people don't have the patients to sift through hundreds of swap ads.

I would say not priced out of the hobby, but I certainly wont be starting any new aemies...just casual updates to my core lists.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I've hit the wall since I started the hobby more than a year ago, I have not bought a single model directly from GW since I started due to prices....yet I have 5000 points of guard and chaos. How? All second hand trading and low priced deals for NOS stuff from people getting out of the hobby. In terms of new books I'm not afraid to admit I have most things on pdf. You can stay in hobby if your willing to trade but some people don't have the patients to sift through hundreds of swap ads.

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore. There will be a short "boon" where everything will hopefully be on sale as GW closes, and then it'll shoot up even higher once it's all gone. Granted I know you implied none of this, just using your post as an example.

I'm building my army almost entirely 3rd party, so I'm making this problem worse too.

The problem is GW just shoots themselves in the foot so much these days. Little things about what they do just drive people away, or at least earn their ire. It's why many people build their armies out of 3rd party minis, or buy predominately used, or trade, etc.

And I also agree with the above statement that it's not so much just the price rises as it is the price rises along side model quality dropping. If I were a chaos or Dark Angels player, I would probably quit at this point. Luckily I play IG and Orks, so our models are passable, but I shudder to think of how many skulls they'll have on them a few years from now. Several of the ork kits in particular are very good, and I actually find myself ok with how much I spend on them (the boyz box for example is awesome). If GW could match the quality they have in some of their other kits across the board, I think that would make people a lot less angered about the price increases.

As it is now though, looking at the Dark Angels lineup, I feel like I could head in to Toys R' Us and buy a bunch of G.I. Joe toys to convert for cheaper.

I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

 leroy233 wrote:
I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

If GW spent as much effort staying in touch with their player base than they do shutting down recasters and 3rd party companies then they'd be find.

I really liked 40k in 5th but I just can't do that in 6th. I look at some of the prices and sob a little but that doesn't really matter that much anymore as I have decided to kill out 40k from my list of Gaming things unless I really want a model to paint but even then I can't justify the price of some of their "finecrap" models. So for me I am Priced out, Ruled Out, and Just losing my love of it. For Now I will still play WHFB but depending on how that turns out down the line I may just have to follow suit.