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 Spartan089 wrote:

 leroy233 wrote:
I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

If GW spent as much effort staying in touch with their player base than they do shutting down recasters and 3rd party companies then they'd be find.

So they're not supposed to defend their corporate brand or property, but they are supposed to listen to every fanboy's whine about how poor of a job they do?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore.

You do mean, of course, 'the games that GW happens to own' and not 'the hobby (i.e., the wargaming hobby as a whole', correct?

Also, I doubt this very much. Games with a more limited audience, like Blood Bowl and Epic, have managed to not only thrive but expand without any sort of support or even attention from GW. With today's social media and the popularity of 40k and Fantasy, I can't help but imagine the community coming together to keep the games going.

Stopped buying new kits during 4th. Ebay and craigslist has been my source of models. At first I didnt buy new models because I stopped playing, then the deal was sealed when the prices started to skyrocket in 5th. I have received new stuff as gifts, but still never shelled out dough of my own for GW models. So since mid 4th there have been no off the shelf purchases for me, in fact the only new purchase from me was from Dreamforge. GW will have to change its game up in order to get me back into its fold during this golden age of miniature gaming.

For these prices, everything for me has almost been a FW purchase.

considering i can buy new kits from online discounters for 35-50% off their website prices with free shipping, NO, i am far from priced out.

when i was a kid (in the 90s) forced to buy everything from the local GW store, i feel that was a much more massive rip off.

today because of online shopping, GW is dare i say, reasonably priced?

 infinite_array wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore.

You do mean, of course, 'the games that GW happens to own' and not 'the hobby (i.e., the wargaming hobby as a whole', correct?

Also, I doubt this very much. Games with a more limited audience, like Blood Bowl and Epic, have managed to not only thrive but expand without any sort of support or even attention from GW. With today's social media and the popularity of 40k and Fantasy, I can't help but imagine the community coming together to keep the games going.

Of course, just GW games.

Sorry, I keep forgetting GW talks about wargaming as "the hobby" as if they're the only ones in it. My bad.

And regardless of how die hard communities are, it will never be as big as it was, and getting new people in would be nearly impossible, as they would have to build entire armies from miniatures no longer being made. I'm sure another company would swoop in and buy the IP though, but whether or not they would bring back the models is another question entirely.

I'm definitely getting priced out, I'll still play every now and again but I can't afford to start an army every month or something. I have to start saving up for adult stuff.

It's less "I can't afford anything anymore" and more "I can't buy a box every week". Which is fine, I need to learn to control my finances anyway.

The issue for me is that I don't really have many people in my circle of friends that plays this, and there aren't any FLGS in Perth that really run 40k games, only stuff like MTG.

They will keep pumping up the prices until they can no longer fool their investors, at which point they'll start the phase 2 "warehouse clearance" selling 500% marked up items at only 450% markup. At that point the now heads of GW will be long gone, sitting on a beach next to the Enron board members sharing a good laugh, and the joke will be on us.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

 Chi3f wrote:
They will keep pumping up the prices until they can no longer fool their investors, at which point they'll start the phase 2 "warehouse clearance" selling 500% marked up items at only 450% markup. At that point the now heads of GW will be long gone, sitting on a beach next to the Enron board members sharing a good laugh, and the joke will be on us.

and right bewide those pesky jerks from Ferrari and Lamborghini...



Remember, a hobby is what you use to waste the money you have after paying your bills, and if you want it bad enough, you will find a way to afford it.

When I worked in a hobby shop, a guy wanted to build a model plane piece-by-piece so he'd know how it worked. By the time he finished, he'd spent twice what he'd have spent for the same plane in a Ready-to-fly version. But its what he wanted, he didn't care.

Remember, this is not food, water, nor shelter. This is a luxury item. It will be priced where the market can tolerate it. looking at old catalogs, the only major price hikes really seem to be in the single minis.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

Meh. I don't see what the hoopla is all about of late, about Hobbit and DA releases. Pretty much everything has been "normal GW expensive" rather than "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards". RV Battleforce is actually $5 cheaper than the old one for same amount of models. Land Speeder is 2 times bigger than regular LS. Command squads are more expensive than older kits, but also contain more parts. Well, flier is very expensive for size. I also don't mind Codex cost, sure it's costly but it's hardcover & all colour.

Having said that, I don't think I'll be buying anything, other than the book. Everything I already have from DV or older kits, or then I don't like the new kits (Land Speeder Vengeance...).

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

Backfire wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

Meh. I don't see what the hoopla is all about of late, about Hobbit and DA releases. Pretty much everything has been "normal GW expensive" rather than "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards". RV Battleforce is actually $5 cheaper than the old one for same amount of models. Land Speeder is 2 times bigger than regular LS. Command squads are more expensive than older kits, but also contain more parts. Well, flier is very expensive for size. I also don't mind Codex cost, sure it's costly but it's hardcover & all colour.

Having said that, I don't think I'll be buying anything, other than the book. Everything I already have from DV or older kits, or then I don't like the new kits (Land Speeder Vengeance...).

DA release.. well it hasn't been released so we'll see but the Hobbit is across the board 65-75% more expensive than any of the LotR stuff (before finecast price increases are taken into account), which was great value back when it was 24 infantry or 12 cavalry but now that it is 12 infantry/6 cavalry a 70% mark up is "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards".

For quite a while I've been more careful with purchases; only buying from GW direct when I have to, and usually before price jumps (managed to save £52 on the Realm of Battle Board by ordering it through a discounter the week before the June hike).

I can't remember when the breaking point occurred, but ever since my resurgance 2 years ago I've felt it's been painfully steep. Maybe it was when I discovered other companies that are production similar quality wargaming for a fraction of the price.

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

By '3rd party' I'm assuming he's talking 'not GW'. Which probably means something like using the Shadowforge female not-Guardsmen.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

By '3rd party' I'm assuming he's talking 'not GW'. Which probably means something like using the Shadowforge female not-Guardsmen.

Its not the '3rd party' thing that interests me so much as the 'for less than it would cost him in America to do'. Except its here. So shipping will be better. Hence my interest in finding out the exact place

They haven't priced me out but I definitely buy less due to prices. I used to buy special characters for armies I don't own just to paint them, not anymore.

Also there are so many other good (if not better) games out there GW gets less of my hobby dollars. Most people in my group have migrated over t other systems.

 Aerethan wrote:
For me I've simply stopped taking on new armies(as much as I'd like to continue) and am now only buying single models that I want to paint up for the love of painting.

I'll end up rounding out my Red Hunters to 2k and that will be it for a long time on doing any armies.

It is stuff like this though that makes the decision to buy recasts from China and Russia so much easier.

IMO GW is too small a company to be publicly traded. What was their profit in 2011, like 19 million? Hardly enough to make any real financial impact for investors. Hobby Lobby is a damn large company comparatively and they are still private.

I can think of a ton of multi million dollar companies that are privately held and are able to maintain truly competitive prices in their markets.

An example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger
281 stores, 465 million a year in revenue, and they don't pay a single employee minimum wage(starting in CA is now $12.5/hr for them, instead of the state min of $8).

And you ask anyone in that companies market how they rank. They are easily in the top 3 fast food restaurants of their market, beating out bigger publicly traded companies in quality and customer loyalty. And their prices are STILL competitive with major companies. A "Double Double" is $3.20(double cheeseburger) compared to any double burger from Carl's Jr/Hardees at the same or higher prices.

If a company like that can maintain itself and actually grow then why can't GW?

/rant

Because GW basically went backrupt a few years ago for doing some of the things that people on this very thread seem to think would make good business sense. A public buyout was the only way to save the company, this is why they went Public. BTW Gross Profit in 2011 was nearly £120m - I can't remember Net at this time though.

I have a question for those jumping ship, when you say GW prices are high what do you base this upon? Is it the price of other stuff on the market today or the price of GW 5-10 years ago?

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

OK, I admit that I don;t know what is needed for a game, and 10 Guard Rifle might make a full army, whilst you need 3 boxes of marines to make a full army – but in pure model costs GW are cheaper across the board. Can someone tell me what I am missing?

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

When LOTR was released 10 years ago foot figures were initially £4 and mounted were £5 but soon went up to £5 and £6. Now they pair the respective foot and mounted versions of the characters in Finecast for £22. Really?! The metal castings are £15.50 which is plenty enough, but GW grossly over value finecast even if they could deliver perfect castings. The trick they did with the plastics, halving the contents but shaving only a quarter off the price was another low point. Between cutting the contents of boxes and putting up prices, the Catachans have gone up nearly 300%. They were 20 for £10 when first released, now they are 10 for £18 or something.

The joke is that many of these figures are available cheaply on eBay at a fraction of these costs.

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

The 40k new stuff really has driven me into LOTR again. If you look at my first posts when I joined this esteemed forums, a lot of them were 40k posts. Now, not so much. I dislike the direction for the Chaos Space Marines and wish for a 3rd Edition-like codex because it was fun. But alas! - that day shall not come.

Re: Warmachine. Yes, the miniatures are very expensive. Very, very expensive. They are about as detailed as GW ones and they are often a similar size! The metal and plastic models have a similar price as well. However, you need less of them. But even so: 10 Tharn Bloodtrackers cost something like 202 dirhams in the local store whilst a box of 10 CSM was about 150. Then again, you're not going to be needing at least 2 boxes of Bloodtrackers but you will need a few sets of CSM.

The cheapest minis still come from historical manufacturers.

Also to add, looking at Malifaux - another one often listed as something to transfer to because of the cost.

I can't find a starter box, so I cannot compare them, but the Hags puppet box set - which seems to contain 5 miniatures - is £23.40, much higher than the 10 space marines. Or the cheapest I could find, Marrionetts (4 pack) - Clamshell - £9.90 , again more expensive than the space marines.

Whilst I grant that there are some out there cheaper than GW (AoW units are cheaper, I'm fairly sure everything I've seen from Mantic is too) this idea that they are massively inflated to everyone else just doesn't pan out if you look at the prices you pay.

Now I admit that it might be that the online shop can reduce GW by 20-25% and the others only by 10-15%, but that is unimportant to me, the customer - what I care about is what I pay.

For Malifaux, IIRC, is a tiny game with only a handful of models on each side.

Stranger83 wrote:
this idea that they are massively inflated to everyone else just doesn't pan out if you look at the prices you pay.

Until you take into account that the games are different kinds of games. As you yourself said, you need 3 boxes of SM compared to 1 box of WG. I'm not bashing GW or anything, just pointing out the differences in game styles.

And I dunno if I'm priced out yet, I'm moving out in a few weeks so I guess so, but then I'm also going to be priced out of feeding myself, soo....

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

I don't think it's fair to compare boxes with a set of distinctly individual character metals (as I think the Malifaux tend to be) with boxes of largely similar multipart plastics.

If you take GWs boxes of Finecast individual characters, I imagine the comparison is less favourable. The White Council for the Hobbit stand out as the most ridiculous recent release at £45 for four figures but the general trend is for them to price their stuff in blisters very highly. A lot of their single figures are £12-15 which is a lot more than single figures from most companies.

Stranger83 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

The assumption is incorrect because it takes into account that all games play the same.

I don't know a thing about Warmachine, but I can say something about skirmish systems like Infinity or Malifaux. Single models are more expensive in those two systems, but you will be playing with 15 models TOPS. In W40K apart from those 10 Marines you mention, you also need a ride for them, because we all know how good Foot armies are, so you should probably take the cost of the transport into account. As I said, I have no knowledge of Warmachine, but I haven't seen Rhinos in there, so I assume that they do not rely that heavily on APCs, making them an integral element of your infantry squad.

Also, as you correctly mentioned, you will need a lot more Guardsmen boxes than you will Marine boxes , for the same amount of points.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think it's fair to compare boxes with a set of distinctly individual character metals (as I think the Malifaux tend to be) with boxes of largely similar multipart plastics.

If you take GWs boxes of Finecast individual characters, I imagine the comparison is less favourable. The White Council for the Hobbit stand out as the most ridiculous recent release at £45 for four figures but the general trend is for them to price their stuff in blisters very highly. A lot of their single figures are £12-15 which is a lot more than single figures from most companies.

Perhaps true, but I simply took the largest "box sets" that I could find for each company. I'm not a steam punk fan so I've never tried Malifaux, and am never likely to try it, though I have been trying to convice the gaming group to take up warmachine/hordes for a while and finally have some interest for this year so I'll know more about it then.

But it depends on what you are after - if you are bothered about the number of minis then GW are cheaper per mini, though here a discussion of the quality of the mini is relevant - if your bothered from a game pospective then a GW army is more expensive, but not massively. but here the quality of the mini is less important.

Obviously it's not as black and white as this - mini quality and game size are both important and it's the combination that makes the difference if you buy or not (much like myself paying £40 for the manticore to use in Warhammer even though the same model that'll use the same rules as £25 from GW) but the point still stand that on an individual miniature cost GW is actually around the middle ball park for stuff and in the game world they are more expensive - but not massively so.

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

I stopped spending money on gw products. Started playing Dystopian Wars and Flames of War. An army doesnt cost me a fortune and i like the rules more than gw. I can get a fow army for under 100euro and a dystopian wars army for like 60-70 euros. Warhammer 40k id have 1 or 2 units for that money. I wont buy an army from them anymore.

 Alkasyn wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

The assumption is incorrect because it takes into account that all games play the same.

I don't know a thing about Warmachine, but I can say something about skirmish systems like Infinity or Malifaux. Single models are more expensive in those two systems, but you will be playing with 15 models TOPS. In W40K apart from those 10 Marines you mention, you also need a ride for them, because we all know how good Foot armies are, so you should probably take the cost of the transport into account. As I said, I have no knowledge of Warmachine, but I haven't seen Rhinos in there, so I assume that they do not rely that heavily on APCs, making them an integral element of your infantry squad.

Also, as you correctly mentioned, you will need a lot more Guardsmen boxes than you will Marine boxes , for the same amount of points.

Somewhat true, though I managed to play a 1500 point game of CSM the other day using 3 marine squads a helbrute and some transports, I don't keep a personal cost for each model but not that much maybe about £120 - 15 models in Warmachine (I'm presuming the models in question here are the single "mech" type things more than the foot troops?) Comes to around the same - even presuming that the 10 models are the winter guard and 5 "mech" type things thats £70/80. So yes GW is more expensive - but I maintain not massively so.

I know that Space Marines are the point heavy army, so Guard might be nearer £300 for 1500 points, which is considerably more expensive - but if you are brand new to the game and money is an issue to you then Marines are a suitable "intro" army that costs a similar amount to other game systems.