Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?

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**agustin**

Yikes. I knew in Canada and Australia, the prices were already as high or higher than Forge World, but I guess if the trend continues it will be true in every region.

**tuiman**

Gw is more expensive than forgeworld here, becasue of that me and my mates are all starting heresy armies together end of this year after we finish our 40k ones, going to run it as a tale of 6 gamers type of thing, going to be awesome. Since the trade embargo I have hardly bought much gw.

**agustin**

Are you guys going to do regular orders together to cut down on shipping costs?

**KalashnikovMarine**

More expensive then forge world? The mind boggles

**tuiman**

agustin wrote:
Are you guys going to do regular orders together to cut down on shipping costs?

Yeah, I managed to find 5 others who are keen, we have all picked our legion (3 traitor and 3 loyalist

) and we are going to work on the armies all at the same time, combine orders etc, should be a really fun time.

**agustin**

A group project like that would be the only way I'd get back into 40k*. And it'd be all Forge World at that. If I'm going to pay high prices, I may as well get stuff I really like and some of the HH stuff from Forgeworld is just beautiful.

* And like Stranger83, not the 40k rules. I just can't do that again. I'd probably be able to be talked into a game or two, but I'd definitely push for using other sci-fi rules for the project as I really dislike the 40k rules. It's the only miniature rules I've ever played (other than WFB) where I felt like my models were worth less as a result of playing it. I'd paint up a box of this or that and it'd be absolutely pointless on the tabletop except as a single cog in a much, much larger machine. I'd probably go for something like the "In the Emperor's Name" free rules, but modded for heresy special forces skirmishes.

...

**Melissia**

Backfire wrote:
Melissia wrote:A value that is way off of the average is an outlier, which is by definition exceptional.
That is a nonsense definition because you can easily have all values "exceptional", directly contradicting entire definition of "exceptional".

I can tell that you don't know what an outlier is.

Perahps someone with far more patience and care to give can explain it to you.

**silent25**

Ravenous D wrote:
keezus wrote:
MTG players have this perception that wargaming (GW/PP) is a far more expensive hobby, despite the fact that it is significantly cheaper than playing MTG seriously. The initial buy-in price usually crushes any small spark of interest.

And MTG has resale value, my 2nd ed models arent worth anything, but my magic cards from alpha and beta are worth a ton.

The initial cards have kept their value. Most later expansions are worthless after 18 months and unplayable in almost all tournaments these days.

Older GW figures do increase in value. The Juan Diaz damonettes are a good example.

**Crimson-King2120**

they priced me out a while back i still buy GW stuff but either from the forums here or ebay

**conker249**

I mainly use swap shop, eBay, ect for 80% of my dealings. I buy from my local store every once in a while since I game there. Try for a model a month. Usually the larger ones

**Harriticus**

It's not even just tabletop stuff anymore. GW's price insanity is starting to infect Black Libray, which has previous been one of the better-managed areas of the GW franchise.

They're advertising a new "limited edition" novella that's $60. Considering a Gaunts Ghost Omnibus goes for 1/3 that price and is like 6 times the length (and probably a better story, none of these "Limited Edition" BS books have been worth a damn except Auerlian), I don't get how we're meant to not see it as a rip-off.

**Stranger83**

agustin wrote:
@Stranger83

Is build / paint / play really an accurate way of breaking down how people engage with the hobby? It seems like a convenient artifice to give GW a pass on two thirds of the activity.

Yes I apologise, as I said I'd had a few to drink and the argument wasn't quite as good as it could be. I actually presume build and paint to be the same – as you can see in this post I made on page 20

Now, to be fair I’ll class painting and modelling as 1 and the same, as 99% of people I’ve spoken to count it the same – indeed you yourself make it 50% play and 50% modeling (To give it a name I’ve called it Cost of hobby , I’m not trying to say the game isn’t part of the hobby, just giving it a name)

agustin wrote:

I'm sure there are lots and lots of people who don't play GW's games. I think Jervis even said it was a majority at some point. I'm not convinced that there are lots of people who just build and don't paint though. I think modeling should probably be a single category and gaming with the models another.

I actually agree, but when I questioned what “the hobby” was I was told it was build/play/paint.
BTW, I know on here you might get more gamers than modelers, but try going over to CoolMiniOrNot or the WAMP forums and suggesting that the number of people who buy for the models first and the game second is quite small, you'd get laughed off the forum.

agustin wrote:
It's very convenient that you make the aspects of the hobby that you enjoy two thirds of the hobby and activity you don't care about a minority share of the hobby. Very convenient indeed. It sets up the discussion for you to have two out of three areas you can make a case for GW being reasonably priced when the reality is it's only one area.

Yes, I agree, so in a hobby that has 2 areas GW are the most expensive on one side but not the most expensive on the other – read the post I made on page 20 and you'll see that I have made (what I consider to be) a fairly reasonable method of comparing the 2 on a price stand point and GW did not come out on top. As not a single person questioned the maths then my guess is most people cannot come up with a reply o instead have chosen to ignore it

agustin wrote:
And even then, it's not cheaper for GW. GW Paints are a ripoff compared to Vallejo, P3, Coat D'Arms, Reaper and many others when you actually look at the price per ml of paint. Compare GW greenstuff vs GF9. Compare hobby tools from GW versus hobby company tools like Zona or Excel. Similarly if you want to model and paint, there are actual model kits out there that are so much better than GW kits with working running gear, possibility, and multi-direction shifting moulds that allow details to be clear on all sides of a piece-- as opposed to GW's old two-sided mould approach. Check out a good Tamiya or HG or higher Gundam kit, for example. You'll get hours more enjoyment as a scale modeler buying scale model kits than you will out of crappy GW kits made with old mould technology.

You'll see if you read all my post that at no time have I said that GW are not overpriced (except when I said one of the cheapest which I have already taken back and admitted was not what I meant to say many times) just that they are not the most expensive – therefore if people can buy the more expensive stufff it isn't that GW are pricing people out, it's that they are overpriced for what you get.

agustin wrote:
If you want to separate out model building as a separate part of the hobby, GW loses here as well as there are real dedicated scale modeling options that make GW look horrible.

I fully agree, but the thread isn;t “Is GW ovepriced for what you get” its “is GW pricing you out” the 2 questions mean different things.

heartserenade wrote:
agustin wrote:
I agree. It's a stupid thing to separate out as a category. Stranger83 is only doing it so he can credit GW with getting two out of three at reasonable costs. So he can remove the argument about the actual cost of a full size army in order to make GW look better. It's a disingenuous categorization.

So in order for GW to come up on top, you need to:

a) ignore the difference between plastics and resin
b) ignore any other companies that are not PP, Corvus Belli or Wyrd (for some weird reason)
c) ignore army sizes in which most players play with that game system

Frankly, I don't see why one does need to apply those restriction, unless you are driven to prove that GW is less expensive compared to other companies. It's the opposite of research: you already have a conclusion and you twist your parameters in order for you to come up with the same conclusion.

Because the thread isn;t asking “Do GW charge to much for what you get” it's asking “are you priced out” since others charge more you are not priced out, you just make the decision that a better quality model is what you will pay more for. Also, I have accepted that their are cheaper companies than these 3 - but again, just because an Audi costs more than a Ford does not mean Audi are the most expensive company making cars. The argument is "Are GW pricing people out" - therefore the fact that there are companies that are more expensive that are very successful means that they are not pricing people out, they are just considered to be overpriced for what you get. The fact that there are companies that charge less for their stuff does not mean that GW have "priced you out"

agustin wrote:
A group project like that would be the only way I'd get back into 40k*. And it'd be all Forge World at that. If I'm going to pay high prices, I may as well get stuff I really like and some of the HH stuff from Forgeworld is just beautiful.

* And like Stranger83, not the 40k rules. I just can't do that again. I'd probably be able to be talked into a game or two, but I'd definitely push for using other sci-fi rules for the project as I really dislike the 40k rules. It's the only miniature rules I've ever played (other than WFB) where I felt like my models were worth less as a result of playing it. I'd paint up a box of this or that and it'd be absolutely pointless on the tabletop except as a single cog in a much, much larger machine. I'd probably go for something like the "In the Emperor's Name" free rules, but modded for heresy special forces skirmishes.

...

Exactly, playing is only 1 part of “the hobby” if you like the models you can still buy them and paint them without playing the game – yo could even use them in other games if you wish (unless you only view official tournaments as “the hobby”)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

agustin wrote:
I agree. It's a stupid thing to separate out as a category. Stranger83 is only doing it so he can credit GW with getting two out of three at reasonable costs. So he can remove the argument about the actual cost of a full size army in order to make GW look better. It's a disingenuous categorization.

Accepted, painting and building is one half of the hobby - where GW are cheaper than some of their competition and so if they price out out of this half then so do the other companies, gaming is another half of the hobby where GW are the most expensive.

So can we all agree that from a modeling perspective then the companies that charge more per model are also "pricing people out of the hobby"?

**ExNoctemNacimur**

@Stranger83
Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?

Don't quote me on this, but I think that most people who buy 40k or WFB minis generally buy them for play. Especially if their target demographic is children who have not the patience for painting or building high-quality miniatures.

I'm going to use my 1,000 point 40k list for my CSM (4th edition codex, the new one is far too expensive!) and use the GW prices in the UK.

HQ:
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission

TROOPS:
10 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter
9 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT:
2 Obliterators.
2 Obliterators.

Let's see how much that would cost for a small army:
Be'Lakor (because somehow the finecast model is actually cheaper than the metal model!) - 22.50
2 sets of Khorne Berzerkers (leaving you with extra bitz to CSM-up your Be'Lakor) - 46.00
2 sets of Obliterators (leaving you with 2 redundant Obliterators) - 63.00

TOTAL: 131.50

That's a lot of money.

But of course, you'll soon want to expand your army since no one plays 1000 points! Let's add 500 additional points and see where that leaves you:

HQ:
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission

Troops:
5 Chaos Space Marines with Plasma Gun
10 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter
9 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter

Fast Attack:
5 Chaos Bikers with Icon of Nurgle, Champion and Power Weapon

Heavy Support:
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Alright! That army is now fairly large and suited to a normal sized game!

Let's look at how much this army costs:

Be'Lakor - 22.50
Plastic Daemon Prince set (since you don't want two of the same looking princes) - 25.00
2 sets of Khorne Berzerkers - 46.00
Chaos Space Marines (you need the extra bits for your Chaos Biker squad) - 23.00
5 Chaos Bikers - 40.00 (holy gak! That's a lot of money!)
2 sets of Obliterators - 63.00

Leaving you with a grand total of 219.50!

Now, let's look at the cost of my 2,000 point Wood Elven Army (which not everything has been bought for). It's a themed army, so it's not designed to be competitive in any way (and why would it be, if I'm playing Wood Elves?). So here we go:

Lords/Heroes
Wood Elf Highborn on Elven Steed with Dawnstone, The Helm of the Hunt and Wild Rider Kindred
Spellweaver with Lore of the Beasts, Level 3
Noble with Light Armour and BSB

Core
24 Eternal Guard with full command and Wailing Banner
16 Glade Guard with Musician, Standard Bearer and Banner of Eternal Flame
10 Glade Guard with Musician
10 Glade Guard with Musician

Special
3 Warhawk Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
5 Wild Riders of Kurnous

Rare
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
6 Waywatchers

So let's now look at the cost of the army (and Woodies are expensive points-wise, making them cheap in-game):
Wood Elf Battalion (I can use the 8 Glade Riders as the Highborn and Wild Riders) - 55.00
2 Sets of Glade Guard (6 of them I can convert into Waywatchers) - 40.00
Spellweaver FC set - 11.00
Noble with BSB set - 8.70
4 sets of Eternal Guard and 1 set of Eternal Guard Command - 64.70
6 Warhawk Riders - 73.80
Hobbit Great Eagles (plastic, so they're nice) - 30.00

TOTAL: 283.20!!!!!

And I must buy a lot of that stuff from GW since they're metal!

Both armies are ridiculously expensive! And both are without rulebooks or codices/army books!

Let's look at a 50 point Circle Orboros army now.

Kaya The Wildborne (+6 warbeast points)
Argus
Argus
Feral Warpwolf
Warpwolf Stalker

Druids of Orboros
Shifting Stones and Stone Keeper
3-man Tharn Wolf Riders
10-man Wolves of Orboros
Gallows Grove
Gallows Grove
Wolf Lord Morraig

Let's look the cost of that according to the Privateer Press website (in US dollars):
Circle Orboros Warpack (giving me Kaya, the 2 Argi and the Feral Warpwolf) - 49.99
Plastic Warpwolf Set - 34.99
Druids - 34.99
Shifting Stones - 11.99
Keeper - 9.99
Wolf Riders - 51.99
Wolves of Orboros - 32.99
Gallows Grove (2 in a set) - 24.99
Wolf Lord Morraig - 29.99

TOTAL: 281.91
TOTAL IN BRITISH POUNDS AS OF 12/1/2013 12:19 GMT + 4: 174.83

Let's compare.

131.50 for a small army 40k army that will definitely need expanding soon to play against many people. 24 models that are mostly plastic.
283.20 for an average sized WFB army that may or may not need expanding. 82 models that are a mix of metal and plastic.
174.83 for a large WM/H army that will not need expanding. 31 models that are mostly metal.

See why GW are pricing us out of their game?

**Stranger83**

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
@Stranger83
Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?

Don't quote me on this, but I think that most people who buy 40k or WFB minis generally buy them for play. Especially if their target demographic is children who have not the patience for painting or building high-quality miniatures.

I'm going to use my 1,000 point 40k list for my CSM (4th edition codex, the new one is far too expensive!) and use the GW prices in the UK.

HQ:
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission

TROOPS:
10 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter
9 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT:
2 Obliterators.
2 Obliterators.

Let's see how much that would cost for a small army:
Be'Lakor (because somehow the finecast model is actually cheaper than the metal model!) - 22.50
2 sets of Khorne Berzerkers (leaving you with extra bitz to CSM-up your Be'Lakor) - 46.00
2 sets of Obliterators (leaving you with 2 redundant Obliterators) - 63.00

TOTAL: 131.50

That's a lot of money.

But of course, you'll soon want to expand your army since no one plays 1000 points! Let's add 500 additional points and see where that leaves you:

HQ:
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince with Wings, MoS and Lash of Submission

Troops:
5 Chaos Space Marines with Plasma Gun
10 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter
9 Khorne Berzerkers with Skull Champion and Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Rhino with Twin-Linked Bolter

Fast Attack:
5 Chaos Bikers with Icon of Nurgle, Champion and Power Weapon

Heavy Support:
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Alright! That army is now fairly large and suited to a normal sized game!

Let's look at how much this army costs:

Be'Lakor - 22.50
Plastic Daemon Prince set (since you don't want two of the same looking princes) - 25.00
2 sets of Khorne Berzerkers - 46.00
Chaos Space Marines (you need the extra bits for your Chaos Biker squad) - 23.00
5 Chaos Bikers - 40.00 (holy gak! That's a lot of money!)
2 sets of Obliterators - 63.00

Leaving you with a grand total of 219.50!

Now, let's look at the cost of my 2,000 point Wood Elven Army (which not everything has been bought for). It's a themed army, so it's not designed to be competitive in any way (and why would it be, if I'm playing Wood Elves?). So here we go:

Lords/Heroes
Wood Elf Highborn on Elven Steed with Dawnstone, The Helm of the Hunt and Wild Rider Kindred
Spellweaver with Lore of the Beasts, Level 3
Noble with Light Armour and BSB

Core
24 Eternal Guard with full command and Wailing Banner
16 Glade Guard with Musician, Standard Bearer and Banner of Eternal Flame
10 Glade Guard with Musician
10 Glade Guard with Musician

Special
3 Warhawk Riders
3 Warhawk Riders
5 Wild Riders of Kurnous

Rare
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
6 Waywatchers

So let's now look at the cost of the army (and Woodies are expensive points-wise, making them cheap in-game):
Wood Elf Battalion (I can use the 8 Glade Riders as the Highborn and Wild Riders) - 55.00
2 Sets of Glade Guard (6 of them I can convert into Waywatchers) - 40.00
Spellweaver FC set - 11.00
Noble with BSB set - 8.70
4 sets of Eternal Guard and 1 set of Eternal Guard Command - 64.70
6 Warhawk Riders - 73.80
Hobbit Great Eagles (plastic, so they're nice) - 30.00

TOTAL: 283.20!!!!!

And I must buy a lot of that stuff from GW since they're metal!

Both armies are ridiculously expensive! And both are without rulebooks or codices/army books!

Let's look at a 50 point Circle Orboros army now.

Kaya The Wildborne (+6 warbeast points)
Argus
Argus
Feral Warpwolf
Warpwolf Stalker

Druids of Orboros
Shifting Stones and Stone Keeper
3-man Tharn Wolf Riders
10-man Wolves of Orboros
Gallows Grove
Gallows Grove
Wolf Lord Morraig

Let's look the cost of that according to the Privateer Press website (in US dollars):
Circle Orboros Warpack (giving me Kaya, the 2 Argi and the Feral Warpwolf) - 49.99
Plastic Warpwolf Set - 34.99
Druids - 34.99
Shifting Stones - 11.99
Keeper - 9.99
Wolf Riders - 51.99
Wolves of Orboros - 32.99
Gallows Grove (2 in a set) - 24.99
Wolf Lord Morraig - 29.99

TOTAL: 281.91
TOTAL IN BRITISH POUNDS AS OF 12/1/2013 12:19 GMT + 4: 174.83

Let's compare.

131.50 for a small army 40k army that will definitely need expanding soon to play against many people. 24 models that are mostly plastic.
283.20 for an average sized WFB army that may or may not need expanding. 82 models that are a mix of metal and plastic.
174.83 for a large WM/H army that will not need expanding. 31 models that are mostly metal.

See why GW are pricing us out of their game?

Again, in a play example you are right - from a game perspective GW are the most expensiv, I've never said they are not the most expensive game, but when I questioned what the hobby was actually meant I was informed "Build/Paint/Play - I took that to mean that the actual experiance of building and making your models should also be taken into account. Now if you only do the building and painting so you can play then yes GW are more expensive - but then I would argue that "the hobby" toyou is not Build/paint/play, it is just play and the build and paint part are just steps you go through to be able to play.

**ExNoctemNacimur**

That's not true.

For my Wood Elves army, to try and cut costs somewhere, I've been converting a lot of miniatures. My Highborn, for example, is built out of Glade Rider, Dark Elf Spearmen, Glade Guard and even Gallows Grove kits. My Khorne Berzerkers are built from Khorne Berzerker, Possessed and CSM kits. My Eternal Guardsmen are built from Dark Elf spearmen and Eternal Guard parts (which I have not mentioned there, because they actually look like gak).

My favourite part of the hobby is actually building models and seeing what can happen when I let my imagination go wild. I just like playing the games, like most people who buy GW products do.

Make your move.

**Eggs**

In that example, if you take the average cost for each of the models, there isn't much difference in price: 40k army - £5.48 per model, privateer press - £5.63. The difference is in the materials, with the 40k army being plastic, production costs would be significantly cheaper, so GW are obviously making a bigger profit than privateer press off their customers.

The wood elves, while admittedly significantly cheaper, are probably not the best example, as they are an old old army which hasn't been updated in a long time. They are coming out at £3.45 per model, with a mix of materials. It would be interesting to do the same thing with a more recently updated Wfb army - I suspect the average model cost would be a lot higher, but I'm not interested enough to work it out...

**ExNoctemNacimur**

But keep in mind that 4 of the PP models are quite large, 2 of them rivalling the size of the DP, and in the 40k one most are infantry sized. And 50 points is a large army, so the average cost argument is irrelevant for army building.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to see someone do an O&G one - any takers?

**Howard A Treesong**

I'm a painter and still think GW is priced stupidly. Seeing as I have little interest in the games I look at the basic cost, there are loads of miniature companies selling figures of high quality for a fraction that GW ask. GW don't even do single figures now for £3-5, you only get that buying a box of plastics.

I'm rarely keen on boxes of plastics, I like the character figures and GW are hugely priced here. Their single figures are regularly £12-15 or more and cast in a material that miscasts so frequently it makes a collector/painter want to stay far away. Seems to me you'd have to really want to fill a gap in your army to buy finecrap, you don't buy it because of its quality.

The White Council box is £45 and contains only single piece castings, not multipart or large figures, just basic single piece castings. And they want £11 each for them. The only other company I can think of asking so much for so little is Knight Models Star Wars range in which a single piece figure of Han Solo is £12 or something, and a pack of four Stormtroopers was £40+. Well I thought that was ridiculous too, so much as I like Star Wars I didn't give them another look.

**Eggs**

It's irrelevant regarding army building, but pretty important if you are looking at the build/paint side of things in some kind of 'cost per hour of modelling' type scenario, which I thought was what the last few posts were about.

Obviously you can't nail down an actual cost, because everyone does things at different speeds, but taking an average model cost for two roughly equivalent sized armies can give a rough idea.

**Mr.Omega**

£30 is perfectly reasonable for a highly detailed 3 sprue kit. Considering that Ravenwing Bikes are priced at £25 for three, you're essentially paying £5 for a load of extra bitz, greater detail and 1-2 more sprues, which is fine in my book.

Maybe I would switch to another game system, but there's three problems:

If the game system I take a liking to isn't ugly as hell, (Infinity, Malifaux, anything made by Mantic Games- Infinity is ugly to me because a lot of the models aren't anything special and the ones that could have been are broken up by some abysmal posing) then I probably don't like the art style, (Warmachine and Hordes) or, nobody plays it. (Everything else.)

I live near a popular gaming center now since it only popped up recently and the local Bolt Action and Dust Warfare communities aren't anywhere to be found. They're the only two systems I'd have no problem with starting if a community was even there, but there isn't any.

**Stranger83**

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That's not true.

For my Wood Elves army, to try and cut costs somewhere, I've been converting a lot of miniatures. My Highborn, for example, is built out of Glade Rider, Dark Elf Spearmen, Glade Guard and even Gallows Grove kits. My Khorne Berzerkers are built from Khorne Berzerker, Possessed and CSM kits. My Eternal Guardsmen are built from Dark Elf spearmen and Eternal Guard parts (which I have not mentioned there, because they actually look like gak).

My favourite part of the hobby is actually building models and seeing what can happen when I let my imagination go wild. I just like playing the games, like most people who buy GW products do.

Make your move.

Make my move - ok, then in this case, to get a similar number of PP models to GW models (i.e 81) you need to spend £462, yet with GW you onlt spent £283.20.

**Riquende**

@Stranger83:

If you have to continually remind everybody else what the thread's "supposed to be about", chances are you're wrong.

**Stranger83**

Eggs wrote:
In that example, if you take the average cost for each of the models, there isn't much difference in price: 40k army - £5.48 per model, privateer press - £5.63. The difference is in the materials, with the 40k army being plastic, production costs would be significantly cheaper, so GW are obviously making a bigger profit than privateer press off their customers.

The wood elves, while admittedly significantly cheaper, are probably not the best example, as they are an old old army which hasn't been updated in a long time. They are coming out at £3.45 per model, with a mix of materials. It would be interesting to do the same thing with a more recently updated Wfb army - I suspect the average model cost would be a lot higher, but I'm not interested enough to work it out...

Yep, but the question isn;t "Are GW making more profit than anyone else?" Or even"Are GW overpriced?" both of which are correct, it is "Are GW pricing people out of the hobby?" Which - why they are cheaper than some companies that sell a lot of stuff they obviously are not.

**leroy233**

I like to read everyone's views on this subject, they vary so much. I personally think they are overpriced, but it does not stop me buying them, I admit a lot of my latest space wolves army is second and I've reconditioned it. That said, I still buy from GW as sometimes its handy to have the store on the high street when I just can't wait for postage.

I do wonder when the day will come when people like myself and others are priced out of GW and possibly other model producers. I say when because the way the world economy is at the moment that day is getting closer and closer for a lot of people.

I think it comes down to value for money, if GW stuff was better value, either more models per £,$ or whatever, or cheaper per model then more people would buy from them.

**Stranger83**

OK, my point isn't getting across so I'll try a different tactic. No doubt I'll get told I'm moving the goal posts but my aim is still to show that GW are not the most expensive so cannot be “pricing people out”. To stick to the football analogy it's more like I've realised attacking down the left doesn't work – so I'm going to attack down the right.

There are a few ways I could approach this, but as all the objections so far have been that the GAME part of GW costs more then I'll approach it from that angle.

So, a man goes into a store looking to start a new wargame – he is on a budget and looking to spend as little as possible. He asks the shop keeper what he has and he says that they stock GW, PP, Corvus Belli and Wyad (I'll cover if he stocks a cheaper company in a moment, but lets make one point at a time)

The shop owner, having heard that the man is on a budget suggests that maybe GW isn't for him, the customer thanks the owner and checks out the games on offer. After browsing the games and a couple of demo games he decieds to buy infinity and from the demo games he knows he needs 10 models (That number has been given to me in this thread, I havn't played it so I apologise if it is wrong). He looks at the Infinity models and sees that his 10 men would cost him £50 – he finds this more than he wanted to spend (i.e. he is priced out of Infinity) but he really likes the game, he looks around the shop and sees a box of GW space marines for £18.50 (and before you dispute the price look here http://www.darksphere.co.uk/p.php?p=1699&c=101 ) and decides to buy them.

“But they are the wrong models for the game” the owner says, “I don't care” replies the customer “I'm in it for the game and the infinity models had priced me out, these are much cheaper”

THE END.

Now, to take into account a cheaper company than GW – same situation except the store also stocks Mantic products, simply replace the bit where he picks up the CSM squad and replace it with mantic models. OK, the customer hasn't bought the GW models either, but does the fact that he bought Mantic make the Infinity models any cheaper? All I have been saying all along is that it does not.

Now arguments about the look of the models and the medium they are made out of are all valid points, but the thread makes a specific reference to "Priced out" so the only thing we can go on to answer the question is the price.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Riquende wrote:
@Stranger83:

If you have to continually remind everybody else what the thread's "supposed to be about", chances are you're wrong.

I continuelly remind people what the thread is about - it's right there in the title. Now if you want to ask a different question of are GW overpriced then I will support you 100%, but that wasn't the question that was asked and so when everyone comes back and says I'm wrong I feel it is appropriate to tell them that I am simply answering the question that was asked.

**ExNoctemNacimur**

You've articulated yourself better in that post than you have in 22 other pages. And that's a fair point.

**Eggs**

Stranger83 wrote:

Yep, but the question isn;t "Are GW making more profit than anyone else?" Or even"Are GW overpriced?" both of which are correct, it is "Are GW pricing people out of the hobby?" Which - why they are cheaper than some companies that sell a lot of stuff they obviously are not.

True enough, but after 22 pages of back and forth, is the thread not allowed to evolve?

**Stranger83**

Eggs wrote:
Stranger83 wrote:

Yep, but the question isn;t "Are GW making more profit than anyone else?" Or even"Are GW overpriced?" both of which are correct, it is "Are GW pricing people out of the hobby?" Which - why they are cheaper than some companies that sell a lot of stuff they obviously are not.

True enough, but after 22 pages of back and forth, is the thread not allowed to evolve?

Yes it is, but people kept coming back to a post I made in answer to the question and saying it was wrong - now in answer to every question asked since then I actually agree that GW are overpriced, but if you keep going back to my post in answer to the question of the thread and say that I'm wrong because the thread has progressed past that then I will come back and say that at the point I made in that post was answering the question as it stood at that point, which was "Has GW priced you out of the hobby?" which is no.

So as I have put, and agreed with everyone. Yes GW are overpriced, the game is more expensive, the mediums that they use for the models are gak, and on a medium/medium basis they also charge more. I agree on all these point, but you can't then take one of these questions, go back to the post I made answering the question "Are GW pricing you out of the hobby?" and say "You're now wrong because the question has moved past what you were answeing at this time",

**Eggs**

Dude. I have neither said you are right or wrong. Nor have I mentioned any of your previous posts, AT ALL. I've merely noted a couple of my own general observations around GW pricing, and how it relates to my life.

In all honesty, the question is essentially unanswerable, not least because regional pricing means different people face differing levels of 'pricing out'.

To an unemployed person on welfare, they would be priced out of most war games. To a low earner in Australia, there is a pretty high chance they would be priced out of GW war games. To a millionaire, the prices are pretty much irrelevant.

To many variables to have a definitive answer.

**Stranger83**

Eggs wrote:
Dude. I have neither said you are right or wrong. Nor have I mentioned any of your previous posts, AT ALL. I've merely noted a couple of my own general observations around GW pricing, and how it relates to my life.

In all honesty, the question is essentially unanswerable, not least because regional pricing means different people face differing levels of 'pricing out'.

To an unemployed person on welfare, they would be priced out of most war games. To a low earner in Australia, there is a pretty high chance they would be priced out of GW war games. To a millionaire, the prices are pretty much irrelevant.

To many variables to have a definitive answer.

I know you havn't but you asked why I kept going back to the thread title and wasn't answering the question as the thread evolved - and the reason I fixated on the thread title is because that is what my first post was about and then everyone kept taking the reply to that and using in in another question- I then had to keep replying saying that I wasn't answering the new question that had been asked, but the original question in the thread. I usually ended by then answering the question that new question that they asked but as a result of that was told that I was "Changing the goalposts"