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Stranger83 wrote:


“But they are the wrong models for the game” the owner says, “I don't care” replies the customer “I'm in it for the game and the infinity

With the intention of playing Infinity with the marines, or of playing 40K?

I don't think anyone is arguing that some sets of figures by X cost more than some sets of figures by Y, but that the overall cost for GW is getting pretty high (enough figures to play + rules + codex). Some GW plastics are cheaper than some companies metals, but then some companies metals are cheaper than GW's plastics too.

If the guy had walked into the store and asked "how much would I need to invest in any of these systems to be able to get a game in a club", what would the owner have advised?

I don't think they'll ever hit a wall whereby people stop buying/playing warhammer. It always amuses me when I'm told GW are pricing themselves out of the market, its like saying Microsoft can price itself out of the market with the next iteration of windows. In fact you can actually make a DIRECT comparison.

Both products get released often, both increase prices each time, both HAVE competitors, both their products are often bemoaned by their customers and to top it off, most agree the products are getting worse with each release.

Try to understand, GW IS the lions share of its market, the same way Microsoft is the lions share of its own. There is no true competitor to the game play and lore that GW offers and it would take years for one to appear. The real joke though, is the direct price comparison between 40k and WarmaHordes. Have you SEEN their prices increases?! from going to a cheaper medium, a box of TEN bane thralls sets you back £50, if one were to make a Cryx army using Goreshade as its caster, those banes are a free unit, for over £60 you can get a 0 point army. I can drop £60 in Games Workshop and walk out with 2 unit boxes, paints, brushes, spray and actually have somewhere to play. That's GW's NEAREST COMPETITOR.

I think if people are judging Privateer Press as fairly costed, GW has a LONG way to go before it gets TOO expensive.

If someone wandered in to a GW store and wanted to get into 'the GW hobby' down here you'd be looking at the following:

Lets say we are starting DAs since they are shiny and new and are working of the most current GW pricing scheme.

Dark Vengance because it is 'great value' - $180 (fun fact, limited edition is still up on the website)
Codex because you need it - $83
Tac marines to make a second troop choice - $62
A unit of termis - $75

Then you need the actual hobby part of the hobby so they will try and sell you:
Citidel hobby starter set - $96
A can of spray paint - $26
And a tape measure because whipy sticks suck - $18

Now a whole 2 tac squads, a couple of HQs, 5 termies and 3 bikes is what, 850 points?
You are paying $540 for less than 1k points, a whole 9 paints and 1 brush (which are just as important as models when taking the whole hobby into account.)

Anyone walking into a store and being told that's what it takes to start the hobby is going to be put off.

Hi danp164.
I see you share the same view as GW corperate .
GW plc do not have the lions share of the total wargames market.They have 100% share of the 'GW hobby.'

In the UK a decade ago I would agree 90% of non historical gamers would know/play a GW game.
(As GW had squeezed out the majority of independant FLGS.)

However, as GW are no longer targeting gamers , the wargames market has grown many diverse and new options for gamers.
As these other wargames have to compete in the open market, they HAVE to offer good value for money.And lots of smaller companies manage to appeal to collectors with awsome sculpts.(

In the UK GW has a higher store presence than any where else in the world.
A lot of GW stores in one country does not make them the monopoly GW belive themselves to be.
GW price their products if they are a monopoly.IMO.

Windows comparison is invalid - a big factor in MS retaining their market share is the hardware 90% of users purchase come with a Windows licence.

Herzlos wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:


“But they are the wrong models for the game” the owner says, “I don't care” replies the customer “I'm in it for the game and the infinity

With the intention of playing Infinity with the marines, or of playing 40K?

I don't think anyone is arguing that some sets of figures by X cost more than some sets of figures by Y, but that the overall cost for GW is getting pretty high (enough figures to play + rules + codex). Some GW plastics are cheaper than some companies metals, but then some companies metals are cheaper than GW's plastics too.

If the guy had walked into the store and asked "how much would I need to invest in any of these systems to be able to get a game in a club", what would the owner have advised?

to play infinity with, I fully accept that GW is the more expensive game, but under the terms of Build/Paint/Play that I was told the issue was about when I said that GW are a cheaper hobby than some other companies then the question of the number of models that you get to build and paint is also important.

Again, I do not deny that the cost of GW for the game is a lot more than any other wargame, and if you question "is the GW game getting to the point it is pricing people out?" then, although I don;t think we are there yet then yes I think we are getting there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:
If someone wandered in to a GW store and wanted to get into 'the GW hobby' down here you'd be looking at the following:

Lets say we are starting DAs since they are shiny and new and are working of the most current GW pricing scheme.

Dark Vengance because it is 'great value' - $180 (fun fact, limited edition is still up on the website)
Codex because you need it - $83
Tac marines to make a second troop choice - $62
A unit of termis - $75

Then you need the actual hobby part of the hobby so they will try and sell you:
Citidel hobby starter set - $96
A can of spray paint - $26
And a tape measure because whipy sticks suck - $18

Now a whole 2 tac squads, a couple of HQs, 5 termies and 3 bikes is what, 850 points?
You are paying $540 for less than 1k points, a whole 9 paints and 1 brush (which are just as important as models when taking the whole hobby into account.)

Anyone walking into a store and being told that's what it takes to start the hobby is going to be put off.

Yep AUS prices are insane, and if the slaes data from there that is avaliable on the net is infact correct then the sales data for AUS seems to back that up.

Its about percieved value , and so is subjective .

GW's offerings have been percieved by me to be poor value for some time now .

Other perceptions are available

Riquende wrote:Windows comparison is invalid - a big factor in MS retaining their market share is the hardware 90% of users purchase come with a Windows licence.

'GW are the only company to have a point of sale which puts them beyond their competitors...'

Like apple?, but I thought they were Microsoft?

:p

Dynamix wrote:
GW's offerings have been percieved by me to be poor value for some time now .

I agree, the problem is however that there is a tipping point where "poor value" changes from something that you pay begrudgingly to something that you refuse to pay because you feel like you are being taken for a ride and GW are coming dangerously close to that point for a large portion of their fanbase.

Riquende wrote:
Windows comparison is invalid - a big factor in MS retaining their market share is the hardware 90% of users purchase come with a Windows licence.

More than just that - thousands of companies use localized and custom software which runs only on Windows (either because of interface requirements or specific programming methods). Upgrading those across companies is prohibitive and since people use Windows at work, they are inclined to use Windows at home and be educated in the use of Windows in training courses.

Even ignoring that aspect - I can use a Windows (or some obscure 'nix system) regardless of what anyone else is using. However, I need an opponent to play a game against. The popularity of GW is tied to the popularity of GW. That is, one of the reasons a lot of people cite for playing GW games isn't because the figures are great or the rules are great...rather that it is easy to find a game opponent. As the popularity falls...it will fall faster as it is no longer the popular system. PP has already made significant grounds in many areas of the US markets, and several stores I have visited in the last year have dropped WHFB completely from their stock. There are several games who are nipping at 40K and may well see a comparable change in the not so distant future.

It won't happen overnight though. It took several years for PP to get where they are relative to WHFB in the US. I understand that they haven't reached that same level in Europe yet, though apparently it is close to that point in Australia.

I don't think you can say that for Australia fairly though!

sonicology wrote:

Dynamix wrote:
GW's offerings have been percieved by me to be poor value for some time now .

I agree, the problem is however that there is a tipping point where "poor value" changes from something that you pay begrudgingly to something that you refuse to pay because you feel like you are being taken for a ride and GW are coming dangerously close to that point for a large portion of their fanbase.

GW prices being at parity with Forgeworld prices is a dangerous precedent. That would be akin to General Motors pricing Chevy's at the same price as Cadillacs... This has two outcomes. If Cadillacs have retained their quality, Cadillac will rob Chevrolet of sales. If Cadillac has dropped in quality to the level of Chevy, the brand will take a huge hit in confidence. These are both bad outcomes.

I wouldnt say their pricing people out, but definitely keeping young kids from getting in. I started when I was 12 and my parents would buy me misc things here and there, and it was costly for them. Now a days, how do you expect a 16 year old, who works part time at mcdonalds, and goes to highschool to get into this? Too bad bc I had many good games with other kids growing up, and my family as well on Friday nights.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That's not true.

For my Wood Elves army, to try and cut costs somewhere, I've been converting a lot of miniatures. My Highborn, for example, is built out of Glade Rider, Dark Elf Spearmen, Glade Guard and even Gallows Grove kits. My Khorne Berzerkers are built from Khorne Berzerker, Possessed and CSM kits. My Eternal Guardsmen are built from Dark Elf spearmen and Eternal Guard parts (which I have not mentioned there, because they actually look like gak).

My favourite part of the hobby is actually building models and seeing what can happen when I let my imagination go wild. I just like playing the games, like most people who buy GW products do.

Make your move.

Noctem I think you forgot to add the Rhinos for the Beserkers in to your total cost for the GW army

Its kind of funny.... I Am just restarting into the hobby...
I have a very small ork army, that is very non competitive. ~800 pnts. And I am trying to scratch build as much as i can .
Im also starting an emporers children army soon, and a Salamanders army is in progress.

The only way I can afford it is Dakka swapshop, ebay, and trade.. and scratch building drop pods.... Thank the emporer for cardboard...

danp164 wrote:
I don't think they'll ever hit a wall whereby people stop buying/playing warhammer. It always amuses me when I'm told GW are pricing themselves out of the market, its like saying Microsoft can price itself out of the market with the next iteration of windows. In fact you can actually make a DIRECT comparison.

...yeah, saying you can make a direct comparison doesn't make it so. If we were to extrapolate the analogy to its logical conclusion, not playing Fantasy or 40k would mean that I wouldn't be able to play any other miniatures game or in 99% of all game stores (which certainly isn't true, at least in the US where GW stores aren't the ubiquitous retail presence that they are in the UK).

So, in a very vague way GW's apple is kind of sort of like Microsoft's orange in the sense they are both sort of roundish.

The real joke though, is the direct price comparison between 40k and WarmaHordes. Have you SEEN their prices increases?! from going to a cheaper medium, a box of TEN bane thralls sets you back £50, if one were to make a Cryx army using Goreshade as its caster, those banes are a free unit, for over £60 you can get a 0 point army. I can drop £60 in Games Workshop and walk out with 2 unit boxes, paints, brushes, spray and actually have somewhere to play. That's GW's NEAREST COMPETITOR.

I'm trying to understand this analogy: for 60 pounds you can buy a box of Bane Thralls and a warcaster and not have a legal army, but for 60 pounds you can buy two boxes of tactical marines and also not have a legal army?

 jonolikespie wrote:

Codex because you need it - $83

Holy -ing bajeezus on a cracker. When did Codices get up to $83 in Oz? That's insanity. I don't care if it's laced in gold, that's stupid for something you NEED to play the game.

That's a 20% increase compared to the Orc and Goblin Army book, which is also colour and hardback AND more pages. And the O&G book itself was a huge price increase from previous army books/codices.

danp164 wrote:
Have you SEEN their prices increases?! from going to a cheaper medium, a box of TEN bane thralls sets you back £50, if one were to make a Cryx army using Goreshade as its caster, those banes are a free unit, for over £60 you can get a 0 point army. I can drop £60 in Games Workshop and walk out with 2 unit boxes, paints, brushes, spray and actually have somewhere to play. That's GW's NEAREST COMPETITOR.

I think if people are judging Privateer Press as fairly costed, GW has a LONG way to go before it gets TOO expensive.

@Damp: Bane Thralls are still metal. They went from MSRP 30 GBP for six to 50 GBP for 10. That's a huge price increase of 5 GBP per model to 5 GBP per model.

How big are the bane thralls? They look about the same as terminators :0 for 10 terminators they are only 6 pound more if getting from waylend, could you realy get paints brushes and spray for that ?

I actuly realy dislike the exact comparessen, since I think it realy just dissolves the issue people are trying to discuss.

Now from where I am, people are not leaving 40k for warmachine based entirely on the unit to unit price they are leaving since warmachine flows far better in price up. To start a army is at max half the price of 40k here, and that's buying the book and a extra to GW battle force.
Buying two two tac boxes doesn't realy get you very far, when starting up, when you can spend 50$ here and start warmachine fairly happily and adding from there you can up your game size fairy well with slow investments.

@ allseingskink have you seen the rule book price ? With a new codex its $208 to get the rules. Nearly 400 if you get them with a battle force. For chaos or dark angels here.
Throw in extra $40 and can buy a delux wiiU :0

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Codex because you need it - $83

Holy -ing bajeezus on a cracker. When did Codices get up to $83 in Oz? That's insanity. I don't care if it's laced in gold, that's stupid for something you NEED to play the game.

That's a 20% increase compared to the Orc and Goblin Army book, which is also colour and hardback AND more pages. And the O&G book itself was a huge price increase from previous army books/codices.

The CSM codex is the same price; I'm assuming it happened with the move to hardcover. And if you want the limited edition DA codex (for whatever reason), it'll set you back $150.

 Dheneb wrote:
The CSM codex is the same price; I'm assuming it happened with the move to hardcover. And if you want the limited edition DA codex (for whatever reason), it'll set you back $150.

No, the O&G book was the first hardcover and that's when the price increased to $69 from whatever it was ($55 maybe), which in itself was a big price increase. $83 for these codices are now a 20% price increase for absolutely no reason.

New XBOX 360 games run $50-$60 USD, it will be in the used rack in 2 weeks for 1/3 that.

The same retail price as a new Codex you can potentially use for 3 years or more...

Any hobby value is "return on investment" in time, enjoyment, and usage.

GW is expensive to play. Sand castle sculpting isn't.

I am new to the hobby. I also work at Hobby Town USA and see the prices of other hobbies. While it isn't cheap and those who have price complaints make valid points, 40K isn't any worse than a dozen other hobbies. I don't like the prices, but compared to other things, I don't see the prices as being insane.

It's a hobby I love and have loved for a decade of my life. I don't know if I could ever be priced out of it, as I'd probably just look for it cheaper elsewhere. Do I think the stuff is overpriced? Sure. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure. Am I going to ragequit because of it? No. Why should I let GW's stupid business decisions ruin the hobby for me? There are ways around their pricing like third party sites and buying and refurbishing used models. I love Warhammer 40k as both a hobby and a fictional universe. Until it's so expensive that I'm literally incapable of affording it no matter where I go, I'm not going to quit.

But not everyone has my mentality and I can understand people being distressed over it.

 Byte wrote:
New XBOX 360 games run $50-$60 USD, it will be in the used rack in 2 weeks for 1/3 that.

The same retail price as a new Codex you can potentially use for 3 years or more...

Any hobby value is "return on investment" in time, enjoyment, and usage.

GW is expensive to play. Sand castle sculpting isn't.

I don't like it when people compare the price of hobbies unless they are being very thorough about it, as usually it's hard to impossible to do. The Corvette I'm looking at buying for the sake of a "hobby" is going to cost me $24,000. I don't try and compare it to my video gaming or miniature hobbies though. A better comparison might be the service manual for my car, it is cheaper, longer and more detailed than a Codex, it'll probably hold it's value better too Yes, a 360 game at launch costs that much, but then you can get it a few months after launch, still new, for far less. GW prices don't drop even as things get old. Either way, not worth doing comparisons IMO.

My problem with a Codex being that pricey is purely and simply that I don't think it should cost nearly that much to buy the rules for just a single army when the main rules are gonna cost you even more again and then any rules for any other army are going to cost you even more again. If they wanted to make big expensive colour art books and sell them as big expensive colour art books and then give the rules away for a few bucks, that would make me happy, but they'd rather bleed customers by making it necessary to purchase excessively expensive extras to play. When I started in this hobby, I could afford to play it based off doing chores around the house to get pocketmoney and pay for models and books. I doubt I could do that these days if codices are going for $83AUD. I honestly don't remember the prices of codices back in the day, I think I paid $20 to $25AUD for a 2nd edition Space Wolf codex, it'd take a few weeks for me to save up for it, but I could still manage it.

 jonolikespie wrote:
If someone wandered in to a GW store and wanted to get into 'the GW hobby' down here you'd be looking at the following:

Lets say we are starting DAs since they are shiny and new and are working of the most current GW pricing scheme.

Dark Vengance because it is 'great value' - $180 (fun fact, limited edition is still up on the website)
Codex because you need it - $83
Tac marines to make a second troop choice - $62
A unit of termis - $75

Then you need the actual hobby part of the hobby so they will try and sell you:
Citidel hobby starter set - $96
A can of spray paint - $26
And a tape measure because whipy sticks suck - $18

Now a whole 2 tac squads, a couple of HQs, 5 termies and 3 bikes is what, 850 points?
You are paying $540 for less than 1k points, a whole 9 paints and 1 brush (which are just as important as models when taking the whole hobby into account.)

Anyone walking into a store and being told that's what it takes to start the hobby is going to be put off.

There's 10 termies there, that set would be around 1200 points in fact. And of course, you can sell off Chaos models.

Hi all.
If you define the 'GW hobby ' as buying products at full price from GW B&M stores.(Which is what GW corperate WANT the GW hobby to be.)
Then you could say this point has been reached...

If you are going to compare other hobbies to the GW hobby.Can we stick to table top minature wargames please.


EG the total cost per minature of a similar size and material.
Or the total cost to play a full sized game , using the cheapest or average option for both systems.

Currently the only justification for paying more for GW product is..
1)Athetic preferance, (You like it enough...)
2) Popularity
3)Previous level of investment.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Byte wrote:
New XBOX 360 games run $50-$60 USD, it will be in the used rack in 2 weeks for 1/3 that.

The same retail price as a new Codex you can potentially use for 3 years or more...

Any hobby value is "return on investment" in time, enjoyment, and usage.

GW is expensive to play. Sand castle sculpting isn't.

I don't like it when people compare the price of hobbies unless they are being very thorough about it, as usually it's hard to impossible to do. The Corvette I'm looking at buying for the sake of a "hobby" is going to cost me $24,000. I don't try and compare it to my video gaming or miniature hobbies though. A better comparison might be the service manual for my car, it is cheaper, longer and more detailed than a Codex, it'll probably hold it's value better too Yes, a 360 game at launch costs that much, but then you can get it a few months after launch, still new, for far less. GW prices don't drop even as things get old. Either way, not worth doing comparisons IMO.

My problem with a Codex being that pricey is purely and simply that I don't think it should cost nearly that much to buy the rules for just a single army when the main rules are gonna cost you even more again and then any rules for any other army are going to cost you even more again. If they wanted to make big expensive colour art books and sell them as big expensive colour art books and then give the rules away for a few bucks, that would make me happy, but they'd rather bleed customers by making it necessary to purchase excessively expensive extras to play. When I started in this hobby, I could afford to play it based off doing chores around the house to get pocketmoney and pay for models and books. I doubt I could do that these days if codices are going for $83AUD. I honestly don't remember the prices of codices back in the day, I think I paid $20 to $25AUD for a 2nd edition Space Wolf codex, it'd take a few weeks for me to save up for it, but I could still manage it.

Like it or not it's a relevant comparison. Their hobbies. Some buy gardening seed, others buy plastic army men at inflated prices. I put it right in my post. Is the return of your investment of time and money worth it? If its no its no.

Also, I've had multiple armies since 1996 and it's always been expensive relative to the cost of living. I wasn't spending chore money at the time, it was rent money and car payment stuff.

If you think about it like this Byte:
Designers of video games have put thousands of hours of effort into the game, the coders have put thousands of hours into writing the cryptic stuff that allows the game to be produced and the artists have painstakingly crafted the models for the characters. For all that effort, $60 a pop is a fair price.

For a codex. You still need a lot of talent to produce such work, but nowhere near as much work goes into, say, the new Chaos Space Marine codex to the new Call of Duty (and I hate those games, but CoD makers have to consistently perform and release a huge new game every two years).

It's just not a relevant comparison.


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(the point was a lot better in my head)