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I think it's because they are army essentials. For the veteran players, if you want to play, you pretty much have to buy it. For the new person, if they can increase the price of the must have items, they'll get more money out of a person before they might quit. And with GW targetting a younger and younger audience that sort of thing happens when boys discover girls and beer, for example.

I've gotten myself an almost complete set of 2nd edition codexes over the last year. They are so good. The art is a different style and the miniature presentation is far more bright, but the fiction is so much better. My 3rd through 5th edition Fantasy books are just as good for awesome old school fiction.

One place the old approach to fiction is still largely present is in the RPG books by Fantasy Flight Games. They are pricey as well, but very, very nice. And one book is a complete game other than paper, pencils and dice. I would absolutely love it if they outsourced the 40k and WFB studios to Fantasy Flight Games given the quality of their work on the 40k RPG line.

Well this is getting repetitive. Time to bow out I think

GW fanboys will always fight on until the impending doom hits them when it does.

Here is my biggest complaint about GW right now that I have thought about it. The books.

Big rulebook? $70? codex you need for your one army now $50 each. That's at least $170 for two people playing different armies, and about 3/4 of the material combined is fluff and pretty pictures, aka not needed to play the game.

Then you have a newer less well known game like Infinity, Basic rulebook with almost every stat for every unit you need, available for officially free online , or if you have to have a book, $50-55 for a rulebook that also contains the information for the majority of models and weapons in the game. So just the books for the game are less than 1/3rd the price.

The price of models is a bit high for GW, but actually are comparable. I have Warmachine players tell me how much cheaper that game is all the time, and true it's like $50 to start an army about, none of those guys are packing around anything less than $1000+ worth of the game at any given time. They are just getting hit for $30 at a time instead of $40-$50.

 Fafnir wrote:

 DiabolicAl wrote:
I actually think the rulebook is a pretty good buy, Its a quality product and well over 400 pages for £45 is easier to stomach than a codex which is a third of the content for 2/3 the price.

Strongly disagree. Sure, you get well over 400 pages, but most of it is reused fluff and artwork that I don't care about. For someone who's already been initiated to the game, the rulebook is a massively bloated and incredibly heavy tome that makes actually using the damn thing as a reference tool during games much more cumbersome than it has to be. What's more, being in hardback does not help.

That's my view exactly. As a vet, I disliked having to pay so much for such a huge tome that was only 30% useful. So much so that I sold it when I got the DV box set.

I don't see any value in the "hobby" third of the book, I don't see why the rule book should contain so many catalogue pages or instructions on gluing things together, it's a rulebook. I also don't entirely see the point of the fluff, I just didn't find it an interesting read. I'd have much rather seen the 3 sections split into separate books on sale for £15-20 each. £20 for the rules bit on it's own in large format softback would have been great. £45 for a hardback tome of which 60% is of no daily use is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stranger83 wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:


“But they are the wrong models for the game” the owner says, “I don't care” replies the customer “I'm in it for the game and the infinity

With the intention of playing Infinity with the marines, or of playing 40K?

I don't think anyone is arguing that some sets of figures by X cost more than some sets of figures by Y, but that the overall cost for GW is getting pretty high (enough figures to play + rules + codex). Some GW plastics are cheaper than some companies metals, but then some companies metals are cheaper than GW's plastics too.

If the guy had walked into the store and asked "how much would I need to invest in any of these systems to be able to get a game in a club", what would the owner have advised?

to play infinity with, I fully accept that GW is the more expensive game, but under the terms of Build/Paint/Play that I was told the issue was about when I said that GW are a cheaper hobby than some other companies then the question of the number of models that you get to build and paint is also important.

Again, I do not deny that the cost of GW for the game is a lot more than any other wargame, and if you question "is the GW game getting to the point it is pricing people out?" then, although I don;t think we are there yet then yes I think we are getting there.

Thanks for clarifying, I agree with you

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
The price of models is a bit high for GW, but actually are comparable. I have Warmachine players tell me how much cheaper that game is all the time, and true it's like $50 to start an army about, none of those guys are packing around anything less than $1000+ worth of the game at any given time. They are just getting hit for $30 at a time instead of $40-$50.

Heh. The difference here is that they are WILLING to spend that much. That indicates that those players see VALUE in the system. When people ask me if WM/H is an expensive hobby - I tell them: It's not too expensive to start, and an average sized army is about $300. However, there IS NO UPPER LIMIT TO INVESTMENT - the player sets this themselves according to how much flexibilty they want in game, and how much they feel comfortable investing in the game.

I think this is the main difference.
A GAMES company offers an easy in , followed by sales driven by great game play, the desire to invest more into the system you play,getting better returns long term from gamers

As GW plc belive most customers quit before they play a 'full sized game' they simply load up the return on the 'next step' products they sell.
Eg rather than expect long term investment from gamers.(Like game companies do.)

GW plc extorts as much money as possible before customers move on...

Taking Tweenys To The Kleaners. or 4TK (40k) for short...

The answer is no. I've spent the last two Sunday's at my local GW. The place has been packed and I have seen no less then 4 Hobbit Starter sets solds (and they are expensive). When I went in there this sunday, he was almost totally sold out of the DA codex, totally sold out of the new DA finecast and only had 2 dark talons left (he said he started out with a dozen).

To answer your question, the hobby is still strong and apparently GW knows what they are doing...it's never been a hobby for those without a good amount of pocket change..still isn't.

I bought the DV DA minis to start a DA army when they were out.. The prices made me forget about it and the rules making the wings non scoring even with their wings HQ's forced me to use DV minis for conversions.

 Asherian Command wrote:
GW fanboys will always fight on until the impending doom hits them when it does.

With 16K points in GW models are you part of this fanboy club?

Have I been priced out... Let's see the last year's spend.

I spent about £200 on Sedition Wars.
About £200 on a Perry Wars of the Roses army (3000+ pts of WAB or about 150 infantry, 20 cavalry and a smattering of cannon).
About £120 on the Reaper kickstarter. Silly amount of stuff there.
And most recently £65 on Gates of Antares (a middling box set, but a project I wanted to support).

£70 went to GW for the Dark Vengeance LE box set. Which is still sitting on sprue with not much hope of coming off any time soon.

That's it (of my own money - not counting client stuff).

So er, yeah, looks like.

winterdyne wrote:
Have I been priced out... Let's see the last year's spend.

I spent about £200 on Sedition Wars.
About £200 on a Perry Wars of the Roses army (3000+ pts of WAB or about 150 infantry, 20 cavalry and a smattering of cannon).
About £120 on the Reaper kickstarter. Silly amount of stuff there.
And most recently £65 on Gates of Antares (a middling box set, but a project I wanted to support).

£70 went to GW for the Dark Vengeance LE box set. Which is still sitting on sprue with not much hope of coming off any time soon.

That's it (of my own money - not counting client stuff).

So er, yeah, looks like.

so you decided to spend 600 on things other then GW, doesn't sounds like you are "priced out", sounds like you'd rather do something else beyond GW.

I like to get my money's worth when it comes to plastic / lead crack. :-)

For a laugh, price up what £200 of Empire troops gets you, compared to Perry's WotR stuff. That £200 includes all the 'warhammer' style basing too. It's an eye opener. Same sculptors for a lot of stuff, same sort of detail level and options available (I'm of the opinion the Perry stuff is nicer, but I'm an ex WotR reenactor). To all intents and purposes the ranges are the same subject matter, in the same scale (if slightly different proportions).

almostreal wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Have I been priced out... Let's see the last year's spend.

I spent about £200 on Sedition Wars.
About £200 on a Perry Wars of the Roses army (3000+ pts of WAB or about 150 infantry, 20 cavalry and a smattering of cannon).
About £120 on the Reaper kickstarter. Silly amount of stuff there.
And most recently £65 on Gates of Antares (a middling box set, but a project I wanted to support).

£70 went to GW for the Dark Vengeance LE box set. Which is still sitting on sprue with not much hope of coming off any time soon.

That's it (of my own money - not counting client stuff).

So er, yeah, looks like.

so you decided to spend 600 on things other then GW, doesn't sounds like you are "priced out", sounds like you'd rather do something else beyond GW.

Its more that those other companies aren't dishonest in their practices. I'd glady drop $1000 on a new airsoft rifle because its made properly, I dont have to buy "G&G barrel hole filler" to fix a design flaw, or worry about getting kicked out of a store for using a different companies after market part. Point is the companys attitude is a huge selling point, and a lot of people (myself included) feel that GW isnt interested in selling me a good product, they just want to me out of money and nickel and dime me to death with every breathe they take and have the nerve to do it under the guise of "its fun".

If you feel that the price of GW stuff is too high to justify the quality that still counts as being priced out. You are still making a decision not to buy something because you see it as too expensive. I spent about $170 on 5 models from Nocturna simply to paint, and I am happy with that because they range from 30mm to 70mm and are very very pretty. It is worth the money in my opinion. I can get 5 termies for only $75 from GW but I have decided not too because I think that is too much for 5 models that are very simple in comparison. Had they have been $50 I'd have happily picked them but, but they are not so I have been priced out of it.

Mm. It's a quality over cost thing coupled with a numbers thing. If I need nearly 200 models for a good size game (WAB) then I'm not gonna pay a high price for a model that is lost in a crowd. Centrepieces and characters are where high model prices can be justified or exploited as there's a much lower volume of sale and production.

agustin wrote:

One place the old approach to fiction is still largely present is in the RPG books by Fantasy Flight Games. They are pricey as well, but very, very nice. And one book is a complete game other than paper, pencils and dice. I would absolutely love it if they outsourced the 40k and WFB studios to Fantasy Flight Games given the quality of their work on the 40k RPG line.

Umm, FFG is not exactly known from error-free rules or timely erratas.

For the DA battle force here in NZ we have to pay $180 USD

 redkommando wrote:
For the DA battle force here in NZ we have to pay $180 USD

And it'll probably be $200+ in July.

winterdyne wrote:
Mm. It's a quality over cost thing coupled with a numbers thing. If I need nearly 200 models for a good size game (WAB) then I'm not gonna pay a high price for a model that is lost in a crowd. Centrepieces and characters are where high model prices can be justified or exploited as there's a much lower volume of sale and production.

True. I see people pick out the bad Mantic miniatures, and declare how they'd never give up on GW's superior craftsmanship. Then I watch a game of Warhammer where 200+ dudes go on the table, and most of them are simply lost in the crowd, and then see the templates come down in turn 1 or 2, and 50+ of those dudes get scooped up and put back in the case.

Long time player (since 1988) getting back into it. My 40K armies are Tyranids, Chaos (Nurgle) and Dark Angels.

Picked up DV and was very impressed with most of the models, especially the Chaos models. Designs were good and the molding techniques were quite innovative so I was quite looking forward to the upcoming Chaos and DA releases. Then Chaos released... WTF? Dinobots and Helturkeys? I bought only the codex and a box of Raptors. Now DAs are out... WTF? Land Speeder Escalades and another silly looking flyer? I have plenty of metal Termies and bikes, so all I will be buying is the codex. Am I priced out? Not really, but I'm certainly not going pay actual money for stupid looking models. Would not buy them even with a 75% discount...

Tim

Backfire wrote:

agustin wrote:

One place the old approach to fiction is still largely present is in the RPG books by Fantasy Flight Games.

Umm, FFG is not exactly known from error-free rules or timely erratas.

Error free rules and timely errata mean what exactly when you're looking for a source of fiction?

RPGs also have the advantage over wargames when it comes to rules issues in that in the end, the GM can decide. So posting on a forum and asking for advice about what to do about an error is far far more effective as the game doesn't depend on official word from on high. The GM is running the game and when they figure out a solution that works, that's what happens. In a miniature game, both people would have to agree to use the fan solution or wait for an errata.

This may have already been covered, but does anyone else think that complaining about getting priced out of the hobby while spending $5k on it last year is a bit ridiculous?

Stranger83 pointed out that "priced out" was really the wrong term to use. The original poster meant more about value for money than not being able to afford things.

If someone spends $5,000 on miniature gaming in a year and GW raises it's prices enough, that person might stop seeing value in GW's products and the amount of revenue that GW sees from that person might drop from $5,000 a year to $500 or even ZERO.

From GW's perspective, the pricing factor driving away the customers with the greatest purchasing power should concern them more, not less.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
This may have already been covered, but does anyone else think that complaining about getting priced out of the hobby while spending $5k on it last year is a bit ridiculous?

Note how it says "models" in the OP's sig. This can cover the entire gamut of figures in the WARGAMING hobby and is not just limited to GW's releases.

agustin wrote:

Backfire wrote:

agustin wrote:

One place the old approach to fiction is still largely present is in the RPG books by Fantasy Flight Games.

Umm, FFG is not exactly known from error-free rules or timely erratas.

Error free rules and timely errata mean what exactly when you're looking for a source of fiction?

It's quite relevant as you praised "quality of [FFG's] work". In my experience - including their RPG's - is that they are impressive looking, but error-ridden, ie. very similar to what GW produces so I fail to see what improvement that would bring.

Mind you, FFG is much smaller company than GW with much larger number of separate titles, so it's understandable not all their work is perfect.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
This may have already been covered, but does anyone else think that complaining about getting priced out of the hobby while spending $5k on it last year is a bit ridiculous?

Perhaps you missed the whole "Bang for your buck" bit that's been discussed.

You also may not be aware, but (and the OP's title also suffers from this) GW is not the hobby. GW has priced me out of GW games. I'm still playing and am interested in many other tabletop wargames by other manufacturers.

Backfire wrote:

It's quite relevant as you praised "quality of [FFG's] work". In my experience - including their RPG's - is that they are impressive looking, but error-ridden, ie. very similar to what GW produces so I fail to see what improvement that would bring.

Mind you, FFG is much smaller company than GW with much larger number of separate titles, so it's understandable not all their work is perfect.

I guess I haven't noticed the errors and typos as much. Certainly not to any extent that we had to interrupt play to figure something out. I thought their stuff was okay on that front. You could well be right though and I just haven't noticed the problems as much that they stick out to me as being especially prevalent.

I have shown the book to new players and none of them found it hard to pick up or read due to errors, typographical or otherwise.

Shrug.

The real issue is pricing people IN to the hobby. Lower barriers mean more return business.