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The issue with Games Workshop's prices is; is that it makes it harder for newcomers to make returning purchases frequently, especially when the economy or living quality, is even a bit tough.

You're paying what, 70$ for the rulebooks? I have just recently gotten into the hobby, and with the way the pricing boils out, it may be hard for me to stay in it. It's a bit worrying, as I love and adore this hobby.

To be fair, there is no point in buying most Games Workshops products since they are starting to match Forgeworld's prices. As such, you may as well just buy Forgeworld items.

It's been very tempting to just box up the Stormraven I own, and trade it to someone for cash to recover, plus the two small tactical squads.

[EDIT] Oh and get me started on Finecrap...

$70 dexs that are full of typos. Clearly they are high quality.

 Ravenous D wrote:
$70 dexs that are full of typos. Clearly they are high quality.

Yes - but you can get the iBook for $49.99...and I am sure they will fix those issues right away...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/codex-dark-angels/id583342414?mt=11

With reviews like this one...why would GW's management think they should change course:

Must have purchase!

by Jay Sin

I bought an iPad just to get this iBook! What better way to get an up to date codex every time you open the pages. This digital release already has the errata integrated, awesome! While your buds might have errors or missing rules, you will have the most up to date codex at the table. This codex already has 3 updates over the printed text! Worth every dollar, I would pay more even. Not only do you get the errata updates, you get additional model pictures (360 views), instant rule links ( no need to hunt for a rule or definition), and searching.

Buy it and become a member of the Inner Circle!

_____________________

You know - every time I look at what GW does...it just reveals itself as a little more stupid. I really have a hard time understanding how people keep giving them money at all...

Case in point - their eBooks.

The old Space Marine book is priced at $41.99 and is listed as having 334 pages. The new Dark Angels book is priced at $49.99 and is listed as having 191 pages. Between that old codex and the newest one - they also released the Necron book which is priced at $32.99 and listed at having 195 pages. Does that seem odd to anyone?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
$70 dexs that are full of typos. Clearly they are high quality.

Yes - but you can get the iBook for $49.99...and I am sure they will fix those issues right away...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/codex-dark-angels/id583342414?mt=11

With reviews like this one...why would GW's management think they should change course:

Must have purchase!

by Jay Sin

I bought an iPad just to get this iBook! What better way to get an up to date codex every time you open the pages. This digital release already has the errata integrated, awesome! While your buds might have errors or missing rules, you will have the most up to date codex at the table. This codex already has 3 updates over the printed text! Worth every dollar, I would pay more even. Not only do you get the errata updates, you get additional model pictures (360 views), instant rule links ( no need to hunt for a rule or definition), and searching.

Buy it and become a member of the Inner Circle!

$700 for an ipad and $60 on the electronic copy? Hell no, if it was 1/10th the cost maybe, that and Im 90% sure that guy works for GW that wrote that review. In fact I think I know exactly who he is.

That 'review' is more parody than reality.

agustin wrote:

Backfire wrote:

It's quite relevant as you praised "quality of [FFG's] work". In my experience - including their RPG's - is that they are impressive looking, but error-ridden, ie. very similar to what GW produces so I fail to see what improvement that would bring.

Mind you, FFG is much smaller company than GW with much larger number of separate titles, so it's understandable not all their work is perfect.

I guess I haven't noticed the errors and typos as much. Certainly not to any extent that we had to interrupt play to figure something out. I thought their stuff was okay on that front. You could well be right though and I just haven't noticed the problems as much that they stick out to me as being especially prevalent.

Rogue Trader RPG was full of various editing errors and Psychic powers were partially rewritten in Errata. Road to Legend was so buggy that returning to 40k after an RtL campaign was actually refreshing because it had less errors and better, more timely erratas! And I didn't even play the Tomb of Ice or Sea of Blood which are reputed to be buggiest Descent expansions. Lets not even mention game balance.

This is not to say FFG games aren't enjoyable and certainly well made from material standpoint, but airtight rules writing and through playtesting are not amongst their strengths.

Thanks for letting me know. I don't actually have experience with the products you mentioned. I've played the chaos focused RPG, the new IG one, some Deathwatch, WFRP3, lots of Arkham Horror and a good amount of Android: Netrunner. I had good experiences with those.

Like GW, FFG is good at getting the setting and basics right. It's the small details where errors start to show up...

Back to pricing.

I might have hit my limit from buying from GW shops, but the internet still has a way to go before I depart completely.

Some of these prices aren't ideal, but then again they are more in line with what i'd expect/remember such kits to be.

http://totalwargamer.co.uk/warhammer-40k/chaos-space-marines.html

CSM - £17.62
Raptors - £15.37

Obviously these prices are rounded down due to percentage off the RRP, but they are getting back into the realms of reasonable pricing.

If GW rounded those figures down to 17.50 and 15.00 it would be £5.00 and £5.50 off of the current retail price. I know there is a point where GW needs to make a profit to maintain their staff, but it can't be denied that cheaper kits would shift more of them. GW sales figures indicate that they are doing roughly the same profits, but with increased prices surely the volume of sales is decreasing.

Instead of arguing ad nauseam, why don’t I tell you what happened at my local store. I was browsing when a young man (about 17, perfect GW demo) and his dad came in to look at the war games. They were considering starting 40K, but one look at the prices shocked them. I saw they were new and having some issues, so I let them know that there were alternatives; the store offered discounts and the could buy used from some of the older players. The dad said “Even so, this seems like a rich man’s game.” The kid put down the starter set with a laugh and said “I think I’ll spend my money on some 360 games instead ”.

In the end, you can make all the excuses you care to. Compare plastic toy soldiers with Faberge eggs, bundled software, gasoline or hamburgers. Use objectivist theory or Socratic deconstructionism to muddy the conversation. Insult 3rd party minis. Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. If all else fails just call everyone a poor lying whiny pirate when they say they won’t buy.

I know more than a few potential customers GW has chased away. We know the value of a dollar and we certainly aren't alone.

Boggy Man wrote:
...just call everyone a poor lying whiny pirate...

I think this applies to many things.

Take an exalt, BTW. Excellent summation. I see this too, all the time. People off the street see this mass produced plastic at those prices and think, "Hells no. This is cheap made in China crap and you have to build it an paint it yourself, WTF?" and walk right the hell back out the door. I saw it all the time a couple years ago when I still went in to the local GW.

I've posted this before, but the problem with GW pricing is they are a "big boy" manufacturer who should be able to utilize their economies of scale to reduce prices. Instead, they price like they are specialty boutique or small scale manufacturer.

Because they are setting the prices that high, the smaller guys are able to actually make minis and games and can sell it at sufficient prices to support their business. They get a leg in on the market. Privateer Press and Wyrd are able to make plastics now because 1. the price has decreased as technology advances and 2. GW is pricing plastics as if they were metals. Finecast are priced comparable to boutique resin. When Forgeworld looks reasonable, you know GW prices are too high.

Because of this, overall, the prices for GW and as a result the overall miniwargaming market are high. But this artificially high level will allow PP or Wyrd or Mantic or someone to eventually reach that critical mass where they can really start to compete with GW, if not already then soon. Then we should see prices drop as they have to really compete for customers. Theoretically, of course.

So yes, when I look at the prices of GW and think of how much I have to buy, I have bowed out. That mass produced plastic junk isn't worth that much. With the same dollars, I'd rather buy a few PP or Wyrd or Brushfire or EFT minis and have them actually have meaning in a game, and be able to take time to paint them to the level that the price point demands.*

*Edit - PS - my note about my armies in my sig is ironic because we all know that Sisters and Wood Elves are not getting re-done for years, if ever. By then GW will have to compete in price or I can take a HELOC on the house to pay for it.

Boggy Man wrote:
Instead of arguing ad nauseam, why don’t I tell you what happened at my local store. I was browsing when a young man (about 17, perfect GW demo) and his dad came in to look at the war games. They were considering starting 40K, but one look at the prices shocked them. I saw they were new and having some issues, so I let them know that there were alternatives; the store offered discounts and the could buy used from some of the older players. The dad said “Even so, this seems like a rich man’s game.” The kid put down the starter set with a laugh and said “I think I’ll spend my money on some 360 games instead ”.

In the end, you can make all the excuses you care to. Compare plastic toy soldiers with Faberge eggs, bundled software, gasoline or hamburgers. Use objectivist theory or Socratic deconstructionism to muddy the conversation. Insult 3rd party minis. Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. If all else fails just call everyone a poor lying whiny pirate when they say they won’t buy.

I know more than a few potential customers GW has chased away. We know the value of a dollar and we certainly aren't alone.

And video games aren't cheap either, new ones at around $60 US, the almost necessary online subscription, and the console. If you are a hardcore video gamer your cost could be similar to the HHHobby. GW can be done on a budget, but for what you get in a box the prices are too high, period. IG used to be twenty guys in a box and now they are ten for 20% more cost, how does that make sense when they are one of the most model heavy armies in the game? Orks, sixteen down to ten per box, GW thinks we're stupid? We see the difference.. Too high a cost for too little product,

I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business.

After all, one of the basis of an ideal capitalistic system is that the customer DOES know any necessary detail about each product, and as a result, they do not make choices out of ignorance.

But given that idealism doesn't actually exist, this isn't the case in most industries, obviously.

 Melissia wrote:
I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business.

After all, one of the basis of an ideal capitalistic system is that the customer DOES know any necessary detail about each product, and as a result, they do not make choices out of ignorance.

But given that idealism doesn't actually exist, this isn't the case in most industries, obviously.

Speaking of Capitalism, GW needs to be slapped by the Invisible Hand.

I've made it my goal to build 500 points more of my IG army before the new price increases and 6E IG release.

 Melissia wrote:
I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business...

Yeah, that's the thing, capitalism isn't a moral philosophy but it's often confused with one. It's what causes the cliffnotes Ayn Rand 'there's no such thing as too much profit" line. No, it's not immoral for GW to charge $50 for a Nob Biker, but it's bad capitalism. It's feeding their profit margin at the expense of their net profits (they are two different things) their customer base and their long term survivability.

Saying it's just capitalism is like saying killing the goose that lays golden eggs is fine because you're not a vegetarian.

I've got it!

Maybe what GW should do is stick large labels on their products saying "Made in the UK" like American or Australian goods. That way they can justify their prices to the average consumer.

Boggy Man wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business...

Yeah, that's the thing, capitalism isn't a moral philosophy but it's often confused with one. It's what causes the cliffnotes Ayn Rand 'there's no such thing as too much profit" line. No, it's not immoral for GW to charge $50 for a Nob Biker, but it's bad capitalism. It's feeding their profit margin at the expense of their net profits (they are two different things) their customer base and their long term survivability.

Saying it's just capitalism is like saying killing the goose that lays golden eggs is fine because you're not a vegetarian.

No, it's capitalism. If GW price themselves out and bring about their own downfall, another company will step into the spotlight.

 BryllCream wrote:

Boggy Man wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business...

Yeah, that's the thing, capitalism isn't a moral philosophy but it's often confused with one. It's what causes the cliffnotes Ayn Rand 'there's no such thing as too much profit" line. No, it's not immoral for GW to charge $50 for a Nob Biker, but it's bad capitalism. It's feeding their profit margin at the expense of their net profits (they are two different things) their customer base and their long term survivability.

Saying it's just capitalism is like saying killing the goose that lays golden eggs is fine because you're not a vegetarian.

No, it's capitalism. If GW price themselves out and bring about their own downfall, another company will step into the spotlight.

Only in an ideal capitalistic system.

Capitalism in the real world doesn't work like that.

I thought I was out...but a friend and I decided to go ahead and finish our armies and give 6th a go. Looks like GW will get a couple hundred more $$ out of me.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
I thought I was out...but a friend and I decided to go ahead and finish our armies and give 6th a go. Looks like GW will get a couple hundred more $$ out of me.

Till you get a codex update, FAQ changes the rules, a codex release negates one of your units, etc and you need to buy different units. There is no "finish" in 40k.

 Melissia wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Boggy Man wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I dunno about it being "just capitalism" or whatever, that GW tries to only sell to people who don't know much about their products and way of business...

Yeah, that's the thing, capitalism isn't a moral philosophy but it's often confused with one. It's what causes the cliffnotes Ayn Rand 'there's no such thing as too much profit" line. No, it's not immoral for GW to charge $50 for a Nob Biker, but it's bad capitalism. It's feeding their profit margin at the expense of their net profits (they are two different things) their customer base and their long term survivability.

Saying it's just capitalism is like saying killing the goose that lays golden eggs is fine because you're not a vegetarian.

No, it's capitalism. If GW price themselves out and bring about their own downfall, another company will step into the spotlight.

Only in an ideal capitalistic system.

Capitalism in the real world doesn't work like that.

Yes it does.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:
I thought I was out...but a friend and I decided to go ahead and finish our armies and give 6th a go. Looks like GW will get a couple hundred more $$ out of me.

Till you get a codex update, FAQ changes the rules, a codex release negates one of your units, etc and you need to buy different units. There is no "finish" in 40k.

Some people might regard that as a good thing.

 BryllCream wrote:
Capitalism in the real world doesn't work like that.

Yes it does.

 Melissia wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Yes it does.

You can say taht, but it still doesn't.

Capitalism as an ideal relies upon perfect information and no barriers to entry, amongst other things that this industry does not have.

Only a first year macro student honestly thinks that capitalism works this way.

There are competitors to GW out there, yet people clearly think GW offers the best quality product at a price that they are willing to pay, hence they're still the biggest tabletop company around.
If GW did collapse the money would either flow into competing companies, or into other sources of the GW IP. I don't see how "capitalism doesn't work like that" is useful for anyone.

 BryllCream wrote:
[
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:
I thought I was out...but a friend and I decided to go ahead and finish our armies and give 6th a go. Looks like GW will get a couple hundred more $$ out of me.

Till you get a codex update, FAQ changes the rules, a codex release negates one of your units, etc and you need to buy different units. There is no "finish" in 40k.

Some people might regard that as a good thing.

Having the option to flesh out your army with new options = good thing. Being forced to flesh out your army to stay competitive = bad thing.

I can't say I've ever heard someone say "wow that Farseer FAQ update made my farseer totally useless in my build. That's awesome and gives me a reason to buy an Autaurch!"

 BryllCream wrote:
[snip]

Being the best seller does not make you the best author/musician/sculptor/artist/etc. It never has.

Marketing, placement, timing, and pure luck play a lot in to how successful a business endeavor is, without any relation to the quality of its products.

 Melissia wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
[snip]

Being the best seller does not make you the best author/musician/sculptor/artist/etc. It never has.

Marketing, placement, timing, and pure luck play a lot in to how successful a business endeavor is, without any relation to the quality of its products.

In the short term yes. In the long run not so much. Want proof? WM/H has now surpassed GW Fantasy as the number two game in the US. Give it another 5 or so years and if GW (and PP) keep doing what they are doing we should see PP overtake GW.

That' capitalism at its finest. For another example look at Samsung vs. Apple. iPhone dominated the market, forcing other companies to step up and now Samsung is starting to outsell them. Its the way it works. Either companies adapt or they are overcome.

GW from my vantage point has chosen not to really innovate and keep up with the competition, and they are now being caught up to (slowly for sure, but they are).

 darefsky wrote:
That' capitalism at its finest. For another example look at Samsung vs. Apple. iPhone dominated the market, forcing other companies to step up and now Samsung is starting to outsell them. Its the way it works. Either companies adapt or they are overcome.

GW from my vantage point has chosen not to really innovate and keep up with the competition, and they are now being caught up to (slowly for sure, but they are).

I don't disagree. But there's also examples in the music and film industry, as well as gaming industry, of stagnation in the medium term, and we'll see if this continues in to the long as the years go by.

literally the only reason i justified getting into warhammer when 6th hit (didnt play before 6th) was because i have awesome luck finding people on ebay selling their entire army for wicked cheap. I bought ~900 dollars worth of orks off one guy for ~400 lol....
The few things ive gotten from GW and not Ebay felt way too expensive though. Im always flipping the decision around in my head to buy a new box legit or wait for another cheap army on ebay. I need lootas, and im tired of making new deffguns out of craptons of left over sluggas and shootas lol but $25 bucks for FOUR deffguns (mek is the 5th model) is way too expensive since i usually field 25-30 of them.

 Melissia wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
That' capitalism at its finest. For another example look at Samsung vs. Apple. iPhone dominated the market, forcing other companies to step up and now Samsung is starting to outsell them. Its the way it works. Either companies adapt or they are overcome.

GW from my vantage point has chosen not to really innovate and keep up with the competition, and they are now being caught up to (slowly for sure, but they are).

I don't disagree. But there's also examples in the music and film industry, as well as gaming industry, of stagnation in the medium term, and we'll see if this continues in to the long as the years go by.

Sadly I think it will. I look at companies like Dell about 7 years ago. They were on top of the computer world. Got lazy and started just selling on price at the time the stock was in the $50-$60 range. Now its at what $11-$14?

They are a shell of what they were with very little innovation to offer. Lets compare them with IBM, they saw the righting on the wall, and re-invented their business, I don't know if GW upper management doesn't see the trends in the industry or if they truly believe they are in the correct market position with little to worry about.

Dell also had the problem of the Della launch... such a fething fail idea that was...