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Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

This is a hobby, you do hobbies because they are fun. Hobbies cost money. This hobby has not, nor has it ever been a cheap hobby.This also is not, nor has it ever been an expensive hobby. If you want to get into an expensive hobby, they exist, but this is not it. I see other friends blowing thousands here and there on boats and hot rods.

I enjoy Warhammer 40k, and Warhammer, I like their models, and I've had good dealings with them the few times I've needed direct support. I like the scope and pace of the game compared to any other sci-fi or fantasy table top game. Warmahorde in comparison to Warhammer is apples and oranges, WMH has a sorta DnD 2nd edition feel of two epic level adventure groups fighting it out with double greater cleave- more better good munchkin-esk powers. Their models aren't bad, but aren't as good as Citadel. In the end Warmahorde is a non-starter for me, but I could see where some might like it- I guess.

If cost per army start up is your one and only criteria (and you are sad if that's the case) it's likely WMH is your only choice, as it were. I read a lot of fan boys who like to toss out that diddy. As it stands now other games will HAVE to be cheaper than GW, they have no choice. They have to convince me to buy a whole new army from scratch. Sure, if I liked WMH I could get an army for 100, or 150 bucks, but I could also build onto my current 40k list for the same amount. GW, on the other hand, has almost no choice but to raise prices, as so many of us have already large collections. The new flier for your army is 75$ because it might be all you and most everyone else is buying since you have everything else. The new models for a given GW army probably represent the majority of GW sales, so while WMH is selling all of their models, GW has to make sure they are profitable from their newest line.

Keep in mind that I'm a shareholder and get a new army nearly every time I get a dividend check.

GW raises prices for a variety of reasons but they've primarily painted themselves into a corner by having such a large line that they can't refresh their products fast enough to force people to replace existing models. If you got a new, nicer dreadnought every 3 years with additional options that match the new codex; some people would keep the old one but would eventually replace it with the new one. The same could be said for other models as well. Instead we get the rainbow of marines with some nice looking models but my Tau army sits on a shelf because it'll be another 2-3 years before they finally get around to them. If they came out with new Tau models tomorrow, I'd plunk down $300-$400 for new battlesuits and toss the old ones in the trash.

They actually could refresh the armies every few years without much difficulty - again, their expenses show that they could.

However, they don't. Instead of taking the money which they pay out in dividends and tooling new kits for armies (or offering up new armies that have been clamored for for quite some time like AdMech) they pay out a dividend.

The physical expenses relating to design and tooling for last year were about £10 million for last year. They could have doubled the release of kits last year, and still paid a dividend. Probably even more so, as they would have had more new stuff to sell as opposed to just kicking the price up on the old stuff.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

And most of the time they disappear after a week and four or five pages of angry posts. Somehow something is different this time. It isn't just the usual suspects posting grievances and it isn't just a two or three dollar general price increase, either.

My OP was about the Dark Angels kits that I felt were priced just above my threshold. Now that the WoC stuff has come out, I feel that my position isn't just an imagined feeling. How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute. Any desire to pick up a WoC army (something I had been toying with, but not seriously) is gone. That's really never happened to me before. Aside from the Chaos Knights languishing in my storage bin and Manticore for Storm of Magic games, I'll likely not buy anything else from the WoC line.

There are other instances of outrageous prices, usually with Finecast items, but this time we're seeing a clear trend of price escalation that has no bearing to the price of materials or production costs. As I said above, somehow something is different this time.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

I have to agree with Breotan. Last year it was a price increase gripe with finecrapst joke. This year however... our area is void of most 40k players. The vast majority have moved onto other game systems or other hobbies. Another portion of them are waiting for the meta to change. I'm not sure if this has more to do with the current silly meta state of 40k/WHFB, proliferance of other games, or with the prices but the combination the 3 is seeing a GW games downfall.

Production costs are one of nearly countless variables evaluated when setting price.

suggesting GW not pay a dividend as if that were an easy opyion they could simply switch on, or as some sort of easy solution to product price reveals that your knowledge of business is quite minimal.

People constantly fall in and out of love with 40. Most of my friends have stopped playing, but that's because they're doing things with their lives. I know in a few months they'll pick up the plastic crack again though

I'm still in love with 40k

GW prices i hate

Online Shops and ebay it is for me.
Also conversions and scuplting saves me a lot of money.

However i have to admit that i got more into the showcase
part of 40k and away from actual gaming.

 Breotan wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

And most of the time they disappear after a week and four or five pages of angry posts. Somehow something is different this time. It isn't just the usual suspects posting grievances and it isn't just a two or three dollar general price increase, either.

My OP was about the Dark Angels kits that I felt were priced just above my threshold. Now that the WoC stuff has come out, I feel that my position isn't just an imagined feeling. How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute. Any desire to pick up a WoC army (something I had been toying with, but not seriously) is gone. That's really never happened to me before. Aside from the Chaos Knights languishing in my storage bin and Manticore for Storm of Magic games, I'll likely not buy anything else from the WoC line.

There are other instances of outrageous prices, usually with Finecast items, but this time we're seeing a clear trend of price escalation that has no bearing to the price of materials or production costs. As I said above, somehow something is different this time.

I can only say this from my personal perspective. I am an older gamer that has been playing since Second Edition Warhammer. I stopped for the last five years and was planning on picking up my WoC army again until I saw the recent prices.

Now, income wise, I have no problem whatsoever affording the new prices on the soon to be released WoC models. The problem I do have, is the value is longer there for the prices and it has completely tunred me off from getting back into GW at all. Not to mention, GW has A LOT more competition in the space today than they did in the 90s and early 00s where they could do this almost with impunity (too bad their management is still living back in those times.).

As an example, when I look at one model costing $85 then look at a box set of FoW containing two full platoons, six tanks, a plastic scenery piece, a full A5 size rulebook and a bunch of cardboard terrain components for $70 I feel there is value there. I can get most other games starter boxes with 4 to 6 models in them for about $50. But one model from GW at $85, I feel like they are looking for suckers.

Another example is their hardback books. Most game companies produce full-color hardback rulebooks today. These generally run in the high 200s to low 300s in page count and retail for around $35-$40. PP produces army books in hardcover format, with a higher page count and retail for $35. Yet, GW prices a 96-page hardcover at $50 retail. So they are giving less than every other game company for more a lot more money. Again, the value just isn't there any longer.

Lastly, I remember a time when everyone used to drool over the new releases. Even when it used to be resculpts that would have you shelving your old models to built a unit of new ones. It just doesn't seem this way with GW much anymore. I see many drooling over new releases from other manufacturers, however.

TL;DR: The problem with GW prices is now two-fold - 1.) the have priced themselves higher than the actual value received and 2.) the do so appearing ignorant that there are a lot of good wargaming options for players today, unlike the late 90s where they were almost uncontested in the space.

 Breotan wrote:
How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute.

It's simple: Next year they raise the price of the Screaming Bell and Thundertusk so they're more expensive than the Slaughterbrute. Doesn't look like such a bad deal then right?

I can only say this from my personal perspective. I am an older gamer that has been playing since Second Edition Warhammer. I stopped for the last five years and was planning on picking up my WoC army again until I saw the recent prices.

Now, income wise, I have no problem whatsoever affording the new prices on the soon to be released WoC models. The problem I do have, is the value is longer there for the prices and it has completely turned me off from getting back into GW at all. Not to mention, GW has A LOT more competition in the space today than they did in the 90s and early 00s where they could do this almost with impunity (too bad their management is still living back in those times.).

[i]What exactly do you mean by value? Also I get that there are other table top war games out there, but none of them have the scope and pace of the GW games. It's an apple and oranges comparison.

As an example, when I look at one model costing $85 then look at a box set of FoW containing two full platoons, six tanks, a plastic scenery piece, a full A5 size rulebook and a bunch of cardboard terrain components for $70 I feel there is value there. I can get most other games starter boxes with 4 to 6 models in them for about $50. But one model from GW at $85, I feel like they are looking for suckers.

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

Another example is their hardback books. Most game companies produce full-color hardback rulebooks today. These generally run in the high 200s to low 300s in page count and retail for around $35-$40. PP produces army books in hardcover format, with a higher page count and retail for $35. Yet, GW prices a 96-page hardcover at $50 retail. So they are giving less than every other game company for more a lot more money. Again, the value just isn't there any longer.

Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

Lastly, I remember a time when everyone used to drool over the new releases. Even when it used to be re-sculpts that would have you shelving your old models to built a unit of new ones. It just doesn't seem this way with GW much anymore. I see many drooling over new releases from other manufacturers, however.

Folks at my store, and on this page are still drooling over the new stuff, but only complaining about the price increase, which really isn't that bad in the great scheme of things, and they'll settle down in a month or two like usual. I've heard nothing but awe about the new DA, and WoC line of minis

TL;DR: The problem with GW prices is now two-fold -

1.) they have priced themselves higher than the actual value received

Most of my friends thought this 20 years ago, so that's in the eye of the beholder. Is there are maximum price I'll pay for miniatures? sure... They aren't there yet. Maybe this price hike gets rid of the stanky munchkin gamer types, who don't paint their models, and rule monger all game.

2.) they do so appearing ignorant that there are a lot of good war-gaming options for players today, unlike the late 90s where they were almost uncontested in the space.

This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition. They have a different pricing structure, and it makes sense if you really think about it.

I think the answer is obviously yes. Mini gaming is an archaic gaming relic, a beast that had its moment in the sun but was overtaken by the passage of time.

Think about it, you have DnD in the 70s: dudes with individual minis rolling dice and simulating battles on a skirmish scale, and then you have RTS in the 90s: people using computers to roll the dice for you and simulate randomness/probability/range/movement on a large scale in the blink of an eye... What would you expect to find in the 80s?
Answer: Warhammer.

Of course there are going to be some living fossils that harken back to the good ol days and carry the torch; crocodiles are still alpha predators afterall, but we will never again see the giant monsters that used to prey on dinosaurs. As fewer and fewer of the next generation make it to maturity, the population becomes skewed in favor of the established specimines... Until they pass on of course.

In the same way we see older players lamenting the price hikes, but since they are already so invested it is much harder for them to just abandon their hobby. I believe the saying is "It's hard to see the picture when you're within the frame." Someone who is looking in from the outside can say, "I don't see what the big deal is to make it cost so much: the rules aren't balanced, the minis loose almost all value as soon as you buy them, and the community is dwindling... Why should I jump on that sinking ship?"

It happens All The Time in computer games, much like dawn of war. You get a system that a decent chunk of people are willing to accept, and that player pool attracts more noobs to try it out. If the system is good they stay, if the system is flawed they leave. The current meta of GW is to make as much money off those leavers as they can before the individual gives up, rather than make an environment that is conducive to growth of the playerpool. They are happier with a croc farm where they can constantly skin generations of small fries and end up with roughly the same, if not more profit than if they were to have to support long term players that no longer need to consume product on a monthly basis.

GW is the Everquest of mini games, for ages it seemed that the attraction to the established game would streamroll any competitors, for many of the reasons listed here: "it's easy to find a group; newer games are roughly the same price; I like the world they have created." Once the company stopped innovating, it opened the door for a newcomer to the market to offer a higher quality alternative (WoW/Warmahordss), and the player populations shifted, slowly at first but in increasing numbers until the only people left were the hardcore players that had invested hundreds or thousands of hours already.

Tl;Dr : like big Tom Callahan said, " your either growing or your dying." And GW is clearly not growing. Profit != sustainable growth.

I'm going to echo the idea in the last few posts: it's perceived value. If you think you're getting $50 bucks worth of fun and entertainment out of a squad of Terminators, then it's a good buy. Similarly, someone who spends millions on a Stradivarius violin will see the value in a 300 hundred year old violin which they think sounds amazing compared to, say, a Yamaha one. Someone who plays another game may revile at the concept of a 1 inch tall piece of plastic and others may no longer feel that the product has much value, but to others it may.

I'd love to have some data on pricing so I could draw some demand curves for the product.

 MisterMoon wrote:

What exactly do you mean by value? Also I get that there are other table top war games out there, but none of them have the scope and pace of the GW games. It's an apple and oranges comparison.

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

This has nothing to do with starting an army. When I say value it means what do I get from GW for $85 versus what I can get from any other manufacturer for $85. You get far less from GW than any other company on the market now. That is what I mean by value. Unfortunately, GW is reaching the point where you really have to question how little you get from them versus any other company on the market.

As for the scope and pace, GWs pace is horrendous. People are still waiting on army book updates from two editions ago. Secondly, anything based on historical, such as Flames of War, has a lot more scope and depth than GW and Warmahordes has caught up in a relatively short timeline to the depth of GW also. Let's be honest here, GW hasn't moved Warhammer or 40k background or depth much further in 2013 than it was in 1998.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

Have you looked at Flames of War books or Warmachine? The quality is at or better than GW now in a lot of cases. Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the price of their books is insane.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Folks at my store, and on this page are still drooling over the new stuff, but only complaining about the price increase, which really isn't that bad in the great scheme of things, and they'll settle down in a month or two like usual. I've heard nothing but awe about the new DA, and WoC line of minis

It's not settling down, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Most of my friends thought this 20 years ago, so that's in the eye of the beholder. Is there are maximum price I'll pay for miniatures? sure... They aren't there yet. Maybe this price hike gets rid of the stanky munchkin gamer types, who don't paint their models, and rule monger all game.

Each price increase (especially of the severity of GWs increases) will lose customers. The question is whether those lost customers can be replaced by new ones or remaining customers can make up the volume. I am not a munchkin, being in my mid-40s, but the latest pricing on the GW items has made me realize it is finally time to say goodbye to GW for good (or at least stay locked in the current edition with what I already own). Now, I am one who can easily afford the pricing but do not feel the product they produce is worth that kind of money anymore. I am sure, with each price increase, there are many like me who GW loses for good, the question is can they continue to replace lost customers with new ones with the prices as high as they are?

 MisterMoon wrote:
This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition. They have a different pricing structure, and it makes sense if you really think about it.

No, they are not. First, PP and FoW wouldn't be where there are today if GW took them serious when they started showing traction. Secondly, GW still believes they can charge so much more than their competitors because the produce "the best models on the planet". That is so insular in view it isn't funny. Many companies now produce models at or better than GW in quality (especially the finecrap stuff). To still believe you can charge an outrageous premium over other companies because your stuff is the best shows complete ignorance of what is happening in the wargaming world.

 Ouze wrote:
The priced me out, more or less, right around when 6th hit. I still have yet to buy the 6th edition rulebook. I'm not saying a quit because of 6th, simply using that as a reference point, timeframe-wise.

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

I play with my nephew and we really only play Imperial Armour games. I will continue padding out my IA8 armies, and will occasionally pick things up if I can find a good deal on ebay or whatever towards that end, but I'm essentially done with any further evolution of the HHHobby.

Let me re-iterate - it's not solely the money that's become a problem - it's the increased prices combined with the stupid sculpting and the wildly hit and miss QA that is finecast no longer represent a justifiably outlay for me. Finecast, I know there are a lot of mixed opinions for me, seriously hurt GW's standing with me. I believe in the material but they simply don't seem to be able to get it together.

If other people don't feel that way, great! You're supposed to enjoy your hobbies; have a blast.

This is pretty much me as well. When I heard about the Fantasy line getting hardcovers I just KNEW we we getting that treatment as well. And Im sorry but $50-$60 bucks just to SEE if my army is worth playing anymore? Nope. They can have it. Ive already started switching to different game systems and am pleasantly happy with the change so far.

Wayshuba wrote:
Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the rice of their books is insane.

I don't think that's the case. I think it's because GW games are a lot more popular. It's like why I can't find torrents for games like Hegemony Gold - few people play them, and so few people download them. Also it could be that FoW's target market (older gamers, by the sounds of things) is more mature than cash-poor GW teen players.

 MisterMoon wrote:

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

This is a red herring. There is definitely a point where it is no longer worth money to keep "upgrading" your existing purchase. This is true of cars, computers, hi-fi equipment... pretty much anything. There is that point where the base product that you are upgrading is either - no longer effectively serving its purpose, or the cost to keep the base product serving its purpose is too high. I -do- agree that there are different thresholds for this. Example: A car enthusiast might have a higher threshold for maintenance and upgrade costs on their "classic" car, where as someone who needs that car for transportation only would find more value in swapping out their old car for a new one once maintenance costs exceed new-car-payments. With the GW hobby, they are merely putting lipstick on a pig. The bones of the game haven't really been upgraded and it shows. For many, that's the raison d'etre for buying more models, and the neglect that GW heaps upon its ruleset means that the hobby isn't "serving its original purpose."

 MisterMoon wrote:

Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

I don't see how this advances your argument. You are only making unsubstantiated claims that GW -may- have higher per page quality. The fact that GW is adopting eBooks is neither here nor there when applied to this discussion.

 MisterMoon wrote:
This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition.

If by "aware", you mean, "consider their competition beneath their notice.". GW upper management considers the GW Hobby to be its own encapsulated entity, insulated from external market forces.

This has nothing to do with starting an army. When I say value it means what do I get from GW for $85 versus what I can get from any other manufacturer for $85. You get far less from GW than any other company on the market now. That is what I mean by value. Unfortunately, GW is reaching that point.

Again, here you are again suggesting quantity is automatically better than quality.

As for the scope and pace. GWs pace is horrendous. People are still waiting on army book updates from two editions ago. Secondly, anything based on historical, such as Flames of War, has a lot more scope and depth than GW and Warmahordes has caught up in a relatively short timeline to the depth of GW also. Let's be honest here, GW hasn't moved Warhammer or 40k background or depth much further in 2013 than it was in 1998.

I meant scope and pace of game play. I have indeed played these other games. WMH is skirmish level, and way too munchkin. GW is platoon or battalion level, with models which aren't all munchkined out to the nines. I do wish that updates were more frequent on books, but that's another debate. The background of the story isn't a big deal to me, but others have said it. I'm fine with the more or less static story background, but this is also beside the point.

Have you looked at Flames of War books or Warmachine. The quality is at or better than GW now in a lot of cases. Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the rice of their books is insane.

I'm more concerned with model quality than book quality. My FoW books feel apart, but I'm used to gaming books across the spectrum doing that. I don't know if there is much piracy of FoW, but I do know that GW, and WMH are heavily pirated. I think that FoW doesn't have quite the following of either and that has more of a reason as to why. The idea that over price leads to piracy is a joke right? No one is saying music is over priced, or fiction novels, etc...

It's not settling dwon, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

Pricing doesn't always follow a one-to-one ratio. It'd be nice if it did. In my business that would have meant I probably could have retired by now.

Each price increase (especially of the severity of GWs increases) will lose customers. The question is whether those lost customers can be replaced by new ones or remaining customers can make up the volume. I am not a munchkin, being in my mid-40s, but the latest pricing on the GW items has made me realize it is finally time to say goodbye to GW for good (or at least stay locked in the current edition with what I already own. Now, I am one who can easily afford the pricing but do not feel the product they produce is worth that kind of money anymore. I am sure, with each price increase, there are many like me who GW loses for good.

So you have a GW army? All you need is a GW rulebook, and probably a new model of two... That would equal a start up in another system. Why haven't you evaluated that?

No, they are not. First, PP and FoW wouldn't be where there are today if GW took them serious when they started showing traction. Secondly, GW still believes they can charge so much more than their competitors because the produce "the best models on the planet". That is so insular it isn't funny. Many companies now produce models at or better than GW in quality (especially the finecrap stuff). To still believe you can charge an outrageous premium over other companies because your stuff is the best shows complete ignorance of what is happening in the wargaming world.

Again, it's insane to insinuate that a company doesn't evaluate its competition when pricing. In my business I'm not the cheapest guy in town, and I'm fine with that. I'm not in a niche like GW, so it's not complete apples and apples, but I suppose they think of the same things. If you are the cheapest, you get customers always chasing the bottom. They'll stay until the next cheapest guy opens his doors. There are a thousands of other reasons too. But your argument assumes that table top games are some sort of commodity. That's not the case.

A"Is this too expensive for you?"
B"Yes, I would not pay that much."
C"You are wrong, you should queue to pay whatever is demanded!"

Asinine, regardless of context.

This is a red herring. There is definitely a point where it is no longer worth money to keep "upgrading" your existing purchase. This is true of cars, computers, hi-fi equipment... pretty much anything. There is that point where the base product that you are upgrading is either - no longer effectively serving its purpose, or the cost to keep the base product serving its purpose is too high. I -do- agree that there are different thresholds for this. Example: A car enthusiast might have a higher threshold for maintenance and upgrade costs on their "classic" car, where as someone who needs that car for transportation only would find more value in swapping out their old car for a new one once maintenance costs exceed new-car-payments.

Not sure how this is a "red-herring." MOST GW gamers have moderate, to large collections, so we are faced with do we spend 150 bucks on upgrading that army, or getting into a whole new system? My experience with gaming has always been, I have army A, I add to it different things, and have fun building them, and playing them in exciting new ways. If I want to start a new army with 6th edition 40k it's easier with allies, but in the past I'd start with a 500-750 pt army, and go from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
A"Is this too expensive for you?"
B"Yes, I would not pay that much."
C"You are wrong, you should queue to pay whatever is demanded!"

Asinine, regardless of context.

This is what I'm seeing...

A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Mistermoon, please start using the quote boxes, it's difficult to follow what you're saying and to whom.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I meant scope and pace of game play. I have indeed played these other games. WMH is skirmish level, and way too munchkin. GW is platoon or battalion level, with models which aren't all munchkined out to the nines.

I'm not sure what to make of your statement, considering that WMH units have FIXED statlines and the game system, by design, discourages unit spam. To state that a system which encourages user customization -and- where spam of effective units is strongly prevalent to be less "munchkin-like" is counter-intuitive.

Wayshuba wrote:

It's not settling down, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

For umpteenth time, GW price increase is not "20-25% in a year". IIRC, their last years price increase over the entire catalogue was something like 4.7%.

 KingCracker wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
The priced me out, more or less, right around when 6th hit. I still have yet to buy the 6th edition rulebook. I'm not saying a quit because of 6th, simply using that as a reference point, timeframe-wise.

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

I play with my nephew and we really only play Imperial Armour games. I will continue padding out my IA8 armies, and will occasionally pick things up if I can find a good deal on ebay or whatever towards that end, but I'm essentially done with any further evolution of the HHHobby.

Let me re-iterate - it's not solely the money that's become a problem - it's the increased prices combined with the stupid sculpting and the wildly hit and miss QA that is finecast no longer represent a justifiably outlay for me. Finecast, I know there are a lot of mixed opinions for me, seriously hurt GW's standing with me. I believe in the material but they simply don't seem to be able to get it together.

If other people don't feel that way, great! You're supposed to enjoy your hobbies; have a blast.

This is pretty much me as well. When I heard about the Fantasy line getting hardcovers I just KNEW we we getting that treatment as well. And Im sorry but $50-$60 bucks just to SEE if my army is worth playing anymore? Nope. They can have it. Ive already started switching to different game systems and am pleasantly happy with the change so far.

Im kinda in that boat, I dont want GW taking the piss with prices, so I'm not starting anything new, but surely with your current and Im sure ample collection you can keep playing anyway? I went halves with Alby on DV, so we have a 6th rulebook, and a little army each, add them to my existing 3-4k of SM and his 3-4k of Orks, theres no need to spend a bomb to keep current.

I think Ive maybe dropped about £100 on GW stuff in the last 18 months, my spending really has been pretty much zip. And thats in line with what Ive always said, yes the hobby is pretty dear, but once your in, you are in for cheap because your models dont explode or get sawed in half with a plasma gun. But then, Im not a fanatic and Im more than happy with one army. YYMV

If I was in your shoes (and I presume have gak loads of 40k models) I'd just keep the army I had the most models for (Orks right?) ebay the rest of them.. and then get a mini rulebook on ebay and do the same for the codexes and gak when you really really have to.

I do think the current prices are massively taking the piss... Trogg has to be having us on a bite surely?! But at the same time, I will always keep current.. You can spend $50 a year and do that as long as you dont go nuts for every new model you see.

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I have been feeling this way a lot lately, even though I got a ton of new GW stuff for Xmas. I have started buying wargames factory shock troops, 18 guys for. ~$20 bucks, can't beat that!

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot. The days of $7.99 metal blister packs of 2 terminators is long gone (1995). Luckily for me I have been into the hobby for 20 years. I have a large number of models and while $75 for a flyer is expensive, it's not so bad since I already have the rest of the army. I would never "get into" this hobby today if I wasn't already invested. As for the hardback codexes, they are the last thing I want. Why would I want to spend more money on a heavier book to have to lug around?

Anyway GW will just keep shaking the money tree.

Pretty much this. Everything is more expensive today then it was 16 years ago when I started. I used to be able to get a 5 man terminator squad for $32, and I thought that was pricey in 1997.

I shop for bargains on ebay, where I recently picked up a brand new tervigon for 48.50, delivered. The Canadian retail price is $69.25, that's 30% off for the same damn thing....baffles me, it really does.

Also looking into third party manufacturers for my henchmen.

It comes down to what you spend on hobbies. My brothers like dirt biking, and their bikes, gear, fuel and maintenance is probably $1000 a year. I spend half that on GW stuff, and have about 1 unit a month to assemble and paint, which is plenty. I mean, Warhammer isn't cheap, but compared to other mainstream hobbies, it's not really that bad overall in a money to hours of enjoyment ratio. If you cannot afford it though, then you cannot afford it, but there are plenty of ways to cut corners money wise.

Carnage has summed this up perfectly IMO. I think it is also easy to forget that GW is a business and like all businesses it must evolve to compete in an ever changing and competitive environment. I am not just talking about within the tabletop gaming market I am talking about business in general. Costs increase on a yearly basis for them also, insurance, bills, rent, materials, R&D etc... the list is endless. I am not saying I like having to pay more or that I agree but I do 'understand'. I buy what I can within my means... if I think something is too much I look for alternative ways of buying it (ebay, third parties etc). The cost of living is increasing, the cost of EVERYTHING is increasing, the government are always inventing new ways to tax us! Would'nt it be great if everything stayed the same and or we got given a nice cheque in the post from the gov saying thanks for sticking with us? Well yeh thats never going to happen... enjoy the hobby for what it is as some things we cannot change, its the way of the world.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Well said and exalted.

Where is Mikhaila btw? Haven't read anything from him in a few months now...

What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years? How do you know that they haven't been playing wargames since 1973?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...