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 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Targeting just young players? Removing support structures to keep existing players? I'm not seeing this...

GW's corporate literature plainly states that the younger crowd is GW's targetted audience. Current one-man-store policies of "intro games only" at the tables, and "paint lessons only" at the paint tables are geared entirely towards the new players at the expense of facilities that were once available for all customer use. GW management views veterans as geese who will continue laying golden eggs regardless of treatment. While this may be true in some circles as you've abundantly stated, I think that the feedback in this thread indicates that this is not true for all.

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I've always thought this was a game best left for the 16 and up crowd, but if a younger player is smart enough, I don't see any reason to get them into it as well. That said, I don't see where GW is marketing to a younger audience exclusively. Usually when a game or toy company wants to target kids, they put kids in their advertisements, or something. to that effect, and I'm not seeing that effort from GW.

This is an interesting observation. What you say is true for mass market advertisements. GW's advertisements are exclusive to their own publications, and outside of some licensed media, a new customer's first introduction to GW products is either through friends, their FLGS or local GW outlet. This model may have made sense 15 years ago, before the internet when GW was smaller, but the fact that they keep doing the same thing now boggles my mind. I'm not even sure if White Dwarf is still carried by the major bookselling brick and mortar chains anymore.

I guess we can both agree that GW does little marketing, something I've often been critical of, so it boggles my mind even further when it's suggested that they are taking this already non-existent marketing to younger gamers when I see so little marketing to begin with.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
And what do you mean by placing a barrier via costing? Their miniatures are the same cost as WMH, it's just you need more of them. I thought we were past this. As for your store/club/gaming scene, I can always find a game of 40k, and WH, other games its a crap shoot.

You yourself said that the cost of GW rulebooks is bonkers. (Same priced) Models aside, you need rulebooks to play the game. Skirmish size game aside, Malifaux rules are free, Infinity's rules are free, WMH have quickstart rules and a rulebook that is 1/3 the cost of GW's BBT. None of GW's competitors require MANDATORY codexes. By your own admission, GW games rulebooks are overpriced, and as they are needed to play, constitute a pricing barrier.

Indeed I have been critical of GWs rule books pricing. I have made no secret of that, but this line of conversation started over miniature prices. One BIG change I've seen is the number of folks who have all the codexes on their iPad, and I don't think they bought them legally. For the WMH crowd I see a lot of books at the games, and they don't even need them. Clearly GW is missing the boat here as geeks will buy up your fluff, that they don't even NEED, if it's priced right. However, for having the rules to GW games, there is an obvious work around that folks have figured out. Not that I advocate it.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Also, if you feel like I'm basing my ideas on my own personal experience, you can relax, of course I am.

True... however you could ease off the "My experience differs from yours, your argument is invalid" statements a smidge though... example:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I consider myself a gaming orientated veteran. Most of the folks I game with have 5 years and up experience... Again no shortage of finding those here...

I also said that since you are mostly a WMH player you likely have found a place more to your liking and game preferences, where I've done the same. However, I've never seen any issues picking up a 40k game without any real issue.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I think sacrificing some profit on starter sets is done across the board in gaming. I don't see anything wrong with it, and don't shame them for not spreading out the saving across their whole line. It makes good business sense.

I am not an economist, so I can't comment on the "business sense". Only that as a consumer, GW MSRP is psychologically too high for me to justify buying addons and upgrades. Therefore, instead of making "less profit" from me as a customer, they are making "zero profit" from me as a customer. Clearly, you (and your playing circle) is OK with these prices so there must be some merit to their approach.

All I know is that I enjoy building and painting WH/40K and the money is well spent. I never got into it because I wanted something really fun, but on the cheap. And while other games might ofter a cheaper way to play a miniature table top game, the games are fundamentally different in scope and pace.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Yeah, not sure what to make of this one... Like I said, I don't know anyone besides maybe noobs who's got just one WH/40k army...

By your admission you are a veteran gamer - and by your comments - your circle is veteran gamers. How many of these new armies were purchased in the last 5 years? The last 2? This year? How many noobs are buying second armies as opposed to quitting? These are all measures of whether the "magic number" in the OP have been reached.

OK... With 6th edition many have bought new armies as allies, or have started the process. I'd say once a month someone in my WHFB group is play testing a new army. I play marines, and right now am starting a IG army as an ally. I play O&Gs in WHFB, and am starting up a Dwarf army. So I'd say a sizeable fraction of what hits the table is younger than 5 years old, and really good chunk purchase since 6th ed. Also I'd say a good 1/3 are newer gamers, not all vets.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

Thanks for clarifying that my posts contain so little substance that they don't warrant a thought out response. I rest my case.

Regarding: Fischer Price: I don't know what you are referring to considering that GW neither manufactures toys (by their own admission), nor do they market or sell through the same retail channels. This is neither here nor there.
Regarding: If you think that the policies (whether I've described them rightly or wrongly) is irrelevant to the discussion. I think we are done here - as GW's policies directly define who the "people" are the OP's question.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Indeed I have been critical of GWs rule books pricing. I have made no secret of that, but this line of conversation started over miniature prices. One BIG change I've seen is the number of folks who have all the codexes on their iPad, and I don't think they bought them legally. For the WMH crowd I see a lot of books at the games, and they don't even need them. Clearly GW is missing the boat here as geeks will buy up your fluff, that they don't even NEED, if it's priced right. However, for having the rules to GW games, there is an obvious work around that folks have figured out. Not that I advocate it.

I fail to see where "Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby" has limited the discussion to miniatures only.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I also said that since you are mostly a WMH player you likely have found a place more to your liking and game preferences, where I've done the same. However, I've never seen any issues picking up a 40k game without any real issue.

That's quite the unsubstantiated assumption and goes far as to explain the dismissive tone of your posts.

 MisterMoon wrote:


Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids?

Yes, that is all.


No really stop reading.


Le sigh, ok. I have a had a love for the 40k universe since discovering it in late 1989/early1990. I found some odd metal figures at a local store and soon found out that they where part of some odd game called Warhammer 40,000. As luck would have it I live in Vancouver BC and at the time there where 3 GW stores in North America Vancouver happened to be one of them.

As the store was in the 'dodgy ie skid row' part of town and being only 12 at the time I was a little scared to go down to the bad part of town. But within a year or so I finally worked up the courage to go down there. When I entered the store I was blown away, the manager of the store had hair down his back, the second guy there had bobby pins in his ear and a green Mohawk, and the third guy who worked there looked like a out of place technerd on a sci-fi show. Ministry and Skinny puppy where playing on the store stereo, there was a odd collection of people in there. The walls where lined with rows apon rows of blister packs. Well needless to say I was warmly greeted, asked if I new anything at all about this odd hobby called Table Top Wargamming and offered to try a few different intro games out. Of course I was hooked instantly. I know if my parents where with me they would of tried to get me out of that odd place as soon as possible but meh I digress.

I found out soon I had no talent for playing Rogue Trader, the game was honestly a terrible design kind of like a hi-bred of a RPG and a table top game along with a GM/DM for the ride. I loved to paint the models for 40k but soon found myself wanting to go down there less and less. I just wasn't enjoying myself very much until one day they got two new boxed games in called Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus. As I was a huge fan of transformers I was drawn to the Adeptus Mechanicus and its God Machines. I got both box sets on a 2 for 1 deal they had at the time (imagine that GW used to have sales to move old stock, store birthdays, hell just sometimes for the hell of it). Needless to say again I was hooked. Eventually both space marine and AT where replaced by the Epic system. As I had 3 armies ( titans, SM's which came with the box set SM, and IG) I could easily mix and match my army to keep it competitive and up to date. I made new purchases when new units came out it was a blast. Other people around my age 14-18 at that time that I knew and gamed with where also doing the same thing. I was by no means a rich or well off kid. I got 20$ a week for my household chores and made a little extra doing a paper route that I got paid once a month for. But now looking back at it it was kind of odd that a young man like myself could keep myself gaming with so little cash.

As what happens to most of us when we hit 16-18 we discover sex,drugs and rockandroll. Well something had to give and it was my little army men. I stopped going down to the nerd store, I 'grew up', I finished school, got a job, and life was good for a while.

A few years latter I had disposable income and I decided to see what was new in the GW world. Wow, they had moved onto 3rd edition, moved to the local supermall, all the old figures I had where not allowed to be used in the store. At the time I was like 'really....effing really?' but looking back I can understand you want to pimp your new models and game systems like Battlefleet Gothic, modenhiem, Epic Space Marine, fine I get it. At the time though I was rage-o-tastic, again I was just a bout to give up on GW when I noticed that there was this odd novel called First and Only by some dude named Dan Abnett. Well who the hell is this guy I thought, but as I had a rather large IG army I thought I would give it a shot. The novel was amazing, and as the local GW was the only place and some of my old friends where still around I would show up weekly to see what was new in the novel department. After about 6 months I started noticing that the new staff turnover rate was rather high, and that the 'old guard' where showing up less and less. I also noticed that the employee's where all now nice young 'respectable' men with less charisma then a used car salesmen. I started to notice that I couldn't just browse the store without being pounced on even though the guys knew me. I noticed that the games being played by people in there where a few 'old gitz' in the back of the store away from the mobs of 8-12 year old kids who's parents would drop them off there while they did there shopping. I also noticed that the old gitz' or 'vets' where being allowed to use the gaming tables less and less and generally getting the 'cold shoulder' from the staff.

So again I stopped going to the local GW as I could get my 40k book fix from the local chapters which sold the books cheaper then the GW did ^.o .

Eventually I wanted to do something different in my life other then construction and I decided to apply at the local GW when I noticed one day they had a job opening on their website. So I went down there with some outdated knowledge of GW but confident in my ability to dazzle the manager into giving me the job. I was a little weak in the lotr section of knowledge but the manager must of seen a natural bull****er in me and game me the job. I was rather pleased at the time. There where still some vets around and I decided I was going to be the staffer who would help he vets out, the guys who where just like me. Silly Silly Silly me WTF was I thinking? I was told from the get go that 'things had changed' since I was around the store. I was told that gamesworkshop stated mission was world domination the table top wargamming industry. I was told that the goal was to have a starter set of 40k,WHFB or lotr under every kids bed who was between 8-14. I was told that their 'new method' of business was not customer retention but that it was customer volume. They expected between one year to eighteen months out of 'little timmy' before he discovered 'other things' in life just like I did. I had a weekly quota of starter games and sets I had to sell. I was EXPECTED to hardsell kids and their parents on The GW Hobby.

Long story short that job didn't last to long. But I just thought that I would give you a heads up GW business model from a insider's view and someone who has been around GW for a hell of a long time. GW's target market is kids aged 8-14 with mummy's and daddies credit card. GW doesn't care about you and how much you or your gaming group spend. If you stopped playing tomorrow GW would not care in the least. You are not what GW is looking for. You are just gravy to them. GW does not want to make a 'awesome table top wargame with good rules' GW wants to pimp out model kits to kids who will in all likely hood never paint them or play a 'full size' game with them. They should not notice the 'annual GW price adjustment' because honestly they should never be around for more then one of them.

Sorry for the wall of text but the TL;DR version, yes there are memo's saying sell more to kids I know I worked there. Things have not changed. That is all.

That is awful. Unfortunately, kids these days don't really bother going outside and being attracted to wargaming and stay inside Facebooking, so GW needs to get their facts straight. But these silly postings won't change anything.

If we actually want to play, we'll just have to stay on top of the prices, or switch to a different game.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

Maybe not all stores got the memo or maybe some stores just don't listen, lol. When I started playing some 15 to 16 years ago, the store was full of kids and teens. I go there now, it's full of kids and teens, but there are a few older blokes around as well, I didn't really notice any older blokes back in the day.

Back in the day, the GW store had game nights and if it weren't a game night, they wouldn't let you play because all the tables were set up for intro games. This was back in the day of Epic 40k and Necromunda and Space Hulk and Gorkamorka and Warhammer Quest, so intro game set ups took up a lot more space (there was usually 1 or 2 tables set up for the specialist games). But the game nights were insane, you could play with your own army or the store's armies and the store had some pretty nice armies back then and the shop was completely packed and crowded, if there were a fire there would have been a lot of dead nerds because it took you a minute to weave your way through the crowd to get from the back of the store to the counter at the front).

These days, the stores around my local area (there's a few now, back then there was only 1) have 1 or 2 tables set up for intro games, they split a table so that one whole table can have intro games for both 40k and Fantasy at once (remembering that before, the specialist games alone would take up 1 or 2 tables and then 40k and Fantasy would take a table each). Then there's usually 1 or 2 tables that are set up with random armies that the workers are happy for you to play with or move them to the side and set up your own armies to play.

Painting wise, the store has always had a mix of newbies and experienced painters working. The staff has definitely become better trained at teaching people to paint and the newbies are producing some pretty impressive models for their early attempts.

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

 Deunstephe wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

And the non-hobbyist suits who rule the boardroom will nod sagely to one another and say 'yes, but those people weren't buying anything, so why should we miss them'. Because that's how most retail works, in their heads hobbyists in the store playing or painting is the equivalent of people going into Barnes and Noble to read the books on the shelves and not buy anything.

well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

And the non-hobbyist suits who rule the boardroom will nod sagely to one another and say 'yes, but those people weren't buying anything, so why should we miss them'. Because that's how most retail works, in their heads hobbyists in the store playing or painting is the equivalent of people going into Barnes and Noble to read the books on the shelves and not buy anything.

Funnily enough, I just went into B&N today and read half of Black Hole but didn't buy it because I had just bought some GW stuff and was out of cash.

Yes but the B&M stores are supposed to be promoting the 'GW hobby.' are they not?

So if they are NOT supporting gaming and painting and social interaction to inspire long term custom.

Then the 'GW hobby' IS just selling stuff to those that will buy it...
Boxes and boxes of unpainted unassembled models in a bedroom promote the new 'GW hobby'.
(Buying overpriced product you are not actually going to use in case you devalue it in some way.)
'...GW customers are more collectors than gamers....' '..the games are the icing on the cake for these collectors...'JJ.

I am glad my hobby is the table top minature game hobby , where the craftmanship and social interaction of playing games with painted minatures inspires and excites people .

Just stuffing my bedroom full of over priced plastic seems very boring in comparison.But YMMV.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

This is why I left the company, it became more and more dishonest to try and force-sell stuff to people you knew weren't interested. You can always tell which ones were just passing through and the ones that love it from the get go. They need to make their stores new people friendly and cultivate the vets and keep them happy. Happy people spread happiness and spend money, angry people make more angry people and wont give you a dime. Ive seen people glady pay full price at a GW store because they enjoyed their hobby and the atmosphere of that store, sadly GW chased off that manager with constant badgering on demos, and replaced him with a sell-bot thats first action was kick out regulars.

Well my local Warmahordes group is growing thanks to GW. So I guess I can thank GW for their awesome support in helping other games grow?

 BunkerBob wrote:
Well my local Warmahordes group is growing thanks to GW. So I guess I can thank GW for their awesome support in helping other games grow?

Isn't that what gw are only good for now a days anyway

Well, my answer has been "almost priced out"...but now Im changing to "yup, Im out". All it took was a trip to a LGS. My buddy and I took a trip this last weekend to look at 40k stuff and pick up a couple things. We were looking at the 40k stuff and calculating what it would take to finish off his GK and for me to build a whole Tau army. He has a couple squads but thats it. No rulebook, templates, dice, markers, codex, etc..and needs a few more units as well. I would be starting with nothing, so Id need all the same plus all the minis & models.

Then we got to looking at the Warmachine stuff, and the prices for that. The wheels started turning. The overall investment is so much less. I mean come on...a Warmachine rulebook and army book for a little less than just the 40k rulebook.

Then we decided to go to the tables and see what was being played. Besides the card game tourney there were 4 mini games going. All Warmachine & Hordes. Seeing the game being played sealed the deal. We are starting Warmachine.

We have been looking at the Warmachine rules and such online, and really like the general balance and adaptability of the game. We both agree that GW has the edge a bit in minis, but the general garbage of the rules and the sickening prices helped us walk away. The fact that another price increase is likely in the coming months wasnt in GWs favor either.

Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
Well, my answer has been "almost priced out"...but now Im changing to "yup, Im out". All it took was a trip to a LGS. My buddy and I took a trip this last weekend to look at 40k stuff and pick up a couple things. We were looking at the 40k stuff and calculating what it would take to finish off his GK and for me to build a whole Tau army. He has a couple squads but thats it. No rulebook, templates, dice, markers, codex, etc..and needs a few more units as well. I would be starting with nothing, so Id need all the same plus all the minis & models.

Then we got to looking at the Warmachine stuff, and the prices for that. The wheels started turning. The overall investment is so much less. I mean come on...a Warmachine rulebook and army book for a little less than just the 40k rulebook.

Then we decided to go to the tables and see what was being played. Besides the card game tourney there were 4 mini games going. All Warmachine & Hordes. Seeing the game being played sealed the deal. We are starting Warmachine.

We have been looking at the Warmachine rules and such online, and really like the general balance and adaptability of the game. We both agree that GW has the edge a bit in minis, but the general garbage of the rules and the sickening prices helped us walk away. The fact that another price increase is likely in the coming months wasnt in GWs favor either.

Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Since you don't need as much stuff to play Warmachine/Hordes, it'll take much longer for prices to rise before people feel priced out. At which point the GW prices will be the stuff of nightmares :p

 Atropus wrote:

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Funny story--PP have started redoing older metal units in plastic, and for at least some (Skinwalkers, Winter Guard), the prices have dropped.

So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

the kits they changed yes but the kits that made the switch from metal to finecast went up in price

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units. However, the majority of GW's lines have been converted to plastic already. The only product line (albiet, barely supported) that is still almost entirely metal / finecast are Sisters of Battle. Since that transition, the prices have raised at a crazy rate with every new release, and finecast units / plastic elite units have largely reached parity.

e.g.
Eldar Howling Banshees - 6x models @ $41.25USD or $6.87ea
Chaos Warp Talons - 5x models @ $33USD or $6.6ea

If you're going to argue that when PP shifted from metal to plastic and thus a price drop was warranted, then you also must add that GW dropped prices when they first made the transition. What happened next is irrelevant at the moment. PP could increase prices to the same as the metal models or change the sets so you only get one model in a box instead of one that can be converted into three - we don't know. It's like saying "The Roman Empire fell due to minorities, and therefore the US will do the same" - again, it's too early to tell if that will happen.

Don't just hate on a company like that! At least back your ideas up!

 keezus wrote:

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units.

I don't play fantasy, but I believe the Vampire Counts players may want to have a word with you on that....

The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

"Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?"

Yes. It has risen to a point where I will not go to GW to buy model kits anymore. both for army collection and good looking model for painting.

I will still buy from discount games store only during 25%~35% sales. I have to resort to wait for these sales and GW prices are high enough that I won't buy on a whim even with a standard 10% discount.

I will not recommand any of my friends into GW games even if they are interested. Or plainly tell them it will costs thousands of dollars to have an army like they see in GW stores.

I understand that today's market there are many cheaper alternatives for hobby painting or wargaming. for new hobbyist I will recommand these new games that requires fewer models to paint and pay but just as fun.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Ah, good point. I was thinking more of the switch to Finecast (and ensuring price hike), since that was at about the same time PP started doing more stuff in plastic. But it's still a good counter to the accusation that PP will inevitably increase prices, at least at a rate that's on the same planet as GW.

 agustin wrote:
The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

That right there is a large portion of what made my friend and I go with Warmachine. We also really like the flexibility of the game in general. Just changing a caster or other unit can greatly change the way an army works. Sure some combos work better than others, but the effectiveness is also highly based on the player. In 40k theres very few effective combos for each army. We wont even get into the total lack of balance in 40k.

 keezus wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units. However, the majority of GW's lines have been converted to plastic already. The only product line (albiet, barely supported) that is still almost entirely metal / finecast are Sisters of Battle. Since that transition, the prices have raised at a crazy rate with every new release, and finecast units / plastic elite units have largely reached parity.

e.g.
Eldar Howling Banshees - 6x models @ $41.25USD or $6.87ea
Chaos Warp Talons - 5x models @ $33USD or $6.6ea

yes but in 8th ed cavalry aren't all that great, and huge blocks of infantry are the big thing. so many of the old 20 man boxes have been brought down to 10 models, but only 10 or so dollars less then they were when they were 20 men strong
I want to add a bunch of orcs to my o&g army... where as before it was costly but doable, now... no damn way

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

This is why I left the company, it became more and more dishonest to try and force-sell stuff to people you knew weren't interested. You can always tell which ones were just passing through and the ones that love it from the get go. They need to make their stores new people friendly and cultivate the vets and keep them happy. Happy people spread happiness and spend money, angry people make more angry people and wont give you a dime. Ive seen people glady pay full price at a GW store because they enjoyed their hobby and the atmosphere of that store, sadly GW chased off that manager with constant badgering on demos, and replaced him with a sell-bot thats first action was kick out regulars.

What year did you leave the corporation if I may ask?

 Atropus wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Atropus You missed that we will also be Enjoying playing the game. 40k/Fantasy and GW games in general arn't that fun if you take your GAMING serious. for hobbyist, who play cinimatic games, that have more to do with how good the army looks when placed on the table.. GWs products are just fine. But for the people who take gaming seriously and play to win, and want an even playfield were their skills win them matches, they are not an option. PPs warmachine/hordes is a much better option. When I'm not playing chess I want a good Table Top game that is skill focused, has Company Tournament suport etc.. I dont want a second decade ruleset with slow updated codexes, even if the miniatures are nice to look at. I personaly havent Read any lore at all for Warmachine/hordes, I get bored quickly when people talk about the story behind the a game (this goes for 40k/fantasy also).. its just bla, bla, bla.. I stop listening quickly.. I look at stats I look at abilities, I dont care what the miniature looks like.. I care about what it does for my list.... I feel alot of my fellow Warmachine/hordes players are the same... We really dont care about the Backstory of the miniatures or the lore of the game.. we play with Chess Clocks, on a timer and its only about ONE THING Winning the game.....

On a side note Warmachine/hordes miniatures are looking better and better... and from what I hear from the lore buffs in our gaming community the lore is solid and fun to read.. I personly am not that interested, just saying its there if you like that sort of thing... And the Upside is that you also get a game that you actually can play and win, because you have skills.. Not because you have Jaws of the world wolf.. and sap everything in straight line.. that you can mesure in advance.. that is Zero player skillbased... We have all the 40k armies because we used to play that gak game before we wised up.. I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

The lore buffs in our group also hate the rules of Games workshop.. One of them read the Dreadnoughts entry... It is like OMG, here is this super killing machine.. its has a dead Hero placed inside it.. its been around for hundreads, maybe thousand of years... You place it on the table.. and a little troop of Necron warriors (the cheapest kind) shoot at it and it gets a few galancing hits, lose all hull points and explodes... HAHA... Or here comes the land raider hoo noooo super crap necron warriors with gause guns... BOOOOOM!!! this is the way the game works... so Its JAWS... and as many missle launchers you can carry(with spacewolfs that is alot) No vehicles... accept Big FOrge world barage weapon platforms.. like ORC grot Bombs that you can reroll scatter HAHA... ho i forgot you can move and shoot heavy weapons.. ORCS hit on 5-6.. now they can move and hit on 6.. not much loss LOLZ... Marines lose alot more when they move Blanced??? I think not.... so when I applaude you Mad4minis that you are quiting GW.. I have to respectfully disagree with "decent rules"