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hellpato wrote:
If you compare games like Infinity, Warmahorde or Flame of War, I give you that but you cannot compare 40k and Infinity. They are not the same game.

As I said, we can make BROAD comparisons based on the fact that they're difference facets of the SAME hobby. We can judge the value for money inherent in a wargaming rules publication, for example, by comparing it to other, similar publications that serve the same purpose. We can't compare it to the safety booklet that came with your Scalextric set, nor the assembly instructions for your moon rocket.

Similarly, we can judge whether a particular model is good value for money by comparing it to similar scaled and detailed models from different ranges. If a company was to make a hard plastic Space Marine styled miniature of similar scale and sculpt quality to GW, and price each one at £100,000, could we reasonably say it's too expensive? Or is it impossible to compare because it's for a different game?

Oh, and not all games have expensive core rulebooks (many of them are actually free!)

As I said before if you find value in 40K and enjoy it then more power to you, but you can post that fact until you're blue in the face and it's not going to convince someone to part with their money if they don't see the same value you do. Likewise, there's no point trying to convince someone they're wasting money if they've already carefully considered the purchase and decided it's worth their while.

So I'm gonna take a few points from a few posts without using the quote system cuz frankly I dont feel like going back and doing it.

Can you compare GW games to other systems? Absolutely you can. If i play 50 to 75pt game of WM/H its more intense and has more interactions than a 2500pt game of 40k. Why? because each model in each unit has its own thing to do. And while I have 50-60 models on the table it takes skill timing and thinking it through to make it work right.

Now I am someone who got into the hobby the same way most did with 40k back at the very very end of 3rd and finally
had enough right as 6th Ed hit.

If the game is great for you and you precieve there is a value for your money in it more power to you. I will never be able to change your mind.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Riquende wrote:
Oh, and not all games include 'wargear options' so don't actually need to have lots of options included (this is a plus or minus depending on point of view, before leaving GW behind I'd have said it was a big minus but to be honest I don't miss it).

I came back to 40k via Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game. Most of the LotR SBG kits don't really have options - you might buy a box of 12 guys, 4 of whom will have shields, 4 spears and 4 bows.

The breadth of options in 40k is nice on paper, but combined with the high model prices it's pretty nightmarish for me. I don't feel like I'm choosing one option so much as locking myself out of all the others. We tried magnets but they have some pretty heavy downsides compared to having a model that's actually stuck together, like the willingness of arms and scything talons and so on to come off or twist their way into unnatural-looking positions.

All in all, WYSIWYG plus options seems to have huge downsides to me with the current prices. If they were cheaper then it would be fine. If there were no options then that would work too, or if it wasn't obsessively WYSIWYG.

Er. Anyway!

I only buy used models now.

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

My Tyranid army, at 1500pts, cost me approximately $800au. Bump that to $1000au for the extra 500pts I have bought. One army, at my local areas 'normal' gamesize, with some extra units for variation.

My Vampire Counts army has cost me less (ironically, since Fantasy armies are notoriously expensive), having sunk about $700au into it for about 3500pts. Granted, I have enough Core for 2000pts, so really I have a 2000pt army with 1500pts of various extra units for variation.

For Infinity, I have approximately 450pts of Haqqislam. Scenarios are based around 200pt and 300pt armies. So I have a legal army with almost the same amount again for variation - though due to Infinities mechanics, I could actually make 2-3 armies out of that. It's cost me about $200au, and that's being overly cautious and guessing high.

I'm planning a second Infinity army, Combined Army, based around a TAG (Dreadnought+ sized model). They're rather expensive, especially this one, essentially the size of a Dreadknight, but the bulk of a GUO, all metal. This will run be about $150au for the 300pt army. Again, maximum legal size.

For Games Workshop games, this edition, I have paid nearly $400au for various rulebooks, codices and expansions (like Blood in the Badlands). For Infinity, I have bought all three core rulebooks, which are the same high quality hardback types as GW does now, for $180au. I didn't even need two of them, as the rules are entirely free online, but the third book has campaign rules that are not free.

All three games are skirmish games. GW likes to try to act like they make large scale wargames, but the reality is you're generally using 3-4 squads, a few tanks, and some characters in 40k, and 4-5 regiments with supporting Warmachines and characters in Fantasy. That still skirmish territory when considering real large scale engagments (especially compared to 40k's fluff).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling 40k or Fantasy. I adore my Tyranids. No other game system has anything that even comes close to capturing an entire race that is so utterly alien, carried over with great consistency across the entire model range. I love my Vampire Counts - the army oozes character, the Vampires themselves reclaim the idea that Vampires are powerful, bloodthirsty individuals (regardless of what some recent movies have had to say). A shambling horde of Vampire Count Undead looks truly disgusting and incredible at the same time.

But it has gotten to the point where, as a huge fan of 40k and Fantasy. I can't justify buying anything else. I have large armies for both and they've cost me a lot of money. I enjoy having, painting and playing with them. But I'm not going to add to them, regardless of how much I might want something new for them, because the prices (especially in Australia) are just ludicrous.

And I don't need to. If I want new stuff to paint, Corvus Belli has me covered. They have a game that is fun, cheap, and extremely balanced. I'm not going to sell my Tyranids or Vampire Counts to buy more Infinity - I don't want to, and I still enjoy playing those games. But GW definitely are expensive. Privateer Press are just as expensive, but that's not an argument I want to get into again.

 darefsky wrote:
.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

 cincydooley wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

Looks like I struck a nerve.

Look back through my posts in just this thread. I have said that I love the 40k back round. I enjoy most of the Black Library books. Hell I used to love my Orc, Elder,and original Daemon hunters Armies. I just got to the point where the game became dull, nothing changed. Codex creep and unbalanced junk really took over. I had to shelve my DH when 5th ed came out because there truly was no way to win with them. My orcs were fun for a minute and expensive as heck to field 2500pts, My eldar got boring especially as the the codex got older. And when the new GK codex came out I got it, heck I even spent the money to update it and just couldn't bring myself to put it on the table. Why? Cuz where is the generalship in just about an auto win?

I get that you don't like the PP games. Not a problem, What I am saying is that the rules for GW are complete GAK. I'm sorry but they are. Look at the errata, they create more questions than real answers. And seriously man, there is a friggen errata out for a book that hasn't even been released yet? Are you kidding me?

I am saying and using other established big games that have Tight rule sets that support the player base as an example of what GW should and honestly USED to be. They do not offer you the best value for your money and hence are pricing themselves out of the market.

There is an old saying "Rocks are hard, and water is wet. All the wishful thinking in the world isn't gonna change that"

So if your good with GW, and your happy with the rules go for it, its your money, you worked for it, its your choice.

I'm honestly trying to tell you that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes....

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

Absolutely. I have about 400 points of Ariadna.

I have the full Cygnar line (minus the trencher commandos) and the full Trollbloods line (minus the Sluggers; I refuse to buy a 5 model box that they couldn't bother to make 5 unique sculpts for).

I have a full Zenit Nemesis Orphans army.

I have a gigantic Dust Tactics/Warfare Allies army.

I have full Guild and Arcanist Malifaux factions.

I think infinity has great rules. I think it has beautiful models. The rules are complicated and we have little to no community for it. It rarely gets played.
I like playing my friends in Warmahordes. I won't play people I don't know. I don't have the time to play and learn every single combo on the damn game. The Competetive guys here are all try hards over compensating for the fact that they were never good at sports (my editorial opinion here) and they're no fun to play with.

Love dust. Great game. Relatively clean rules. No community playing it. Shame because the models are silly affordable.

Malifaux is our 2nd most played game. The models are hit or miss (though the new plastics all look great aside from some absurdly small and fiddly bits). Actually has a player base.

40k has a huge local community (like many places in the US) where there are routinely campaigns with narratives, mission types that utilize the battle missions books, the planetstrike book, etc. it's easy to get a game and the rules for 40k, while not the tightest, are easy and familiar. I can get drunk at a buddy's place and still have fun playing it. For me, that can't be said for any of those other games save Dust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darefsky wrote:



I'm honestly trying to tell you that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes....

I'm honestly trying to tell you that for some people the "looseness" of the rules doesn't matter.

gak, I must be one of the last people on earth willing to roll off for a rule ambiguity like the rule book suggests.

I guess while I'm drinking bourbon and BSing while I play, I'm just not that concerned.

Favorite part of my Saturday 40k game? My buddies heldrake getting shot down, careening into my long fangs with a fortuitous dice roll, and killing half of them. Fun. Cinematic. We laughed our asses off.

 cincydooley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

Absolutely. I have about 400 points of Ariadna.

I have the full Cygnar line (minus the trencher commandos) and the full Trollbloods line (minus the Sluggers; I refuse to buy a 5 model box that they couldn't bother to make 5 unique sculpts for).

I have a full Zenit Nemesis Orphans army.

I have a gigantic Dust Tactics/Warfare Allies army.

I have full Guild and Arcanist Malifaux factions.

I think infinity has great rules. I think it has beautiful models. The rules are complicated and we have little to no community for it. It rarely gets played.
I like playing my friends in Warmahordes. I won't play people I don't know. I don't have the time to play and learn every single combo on the damn game. The Competetive guys here are all try hards over compensating for the fact that they were never good at sports (my editorial opinion here) and they're no fun to play with.

Love dust. Great game. Relatively clean rules. No community playing it. Shame because the models are silly affordable.

Malifaux is our 2nd most played game. The models are hit or miss (though the new plastics all look great aside from some absurdly small and fiddly bits). Actually has a player base.

40k has a huge local community (like many places in the US) where there are routinely campaigns with narratives, mission types that utilize the battle missions books, the planetstrike book, etc. it's easy to get a game and the rules for 40k, while not the tightest, are easy and familiar. I can get drunk at a buddy's place and still have fun playing it. For me, that can't be said for any of those other games save Dust.

Fair enough. Good to know some people are playing the other games when they start talking the virtues of 40k compared to them.

Listen, I totally see the"problems" 40k has but it serves me well for beer and pretzels gaming, which is what I want to do most of the time. I want to game to relax. Which is part of the reason I decided to stop playing Call of Duty online. gak just gets me worked up and is the antithesis of relaxing.

I like Warmahordes and I enjoy the universe (and maybe even more so that they're doing some novels!) but I can't stand the local community. Can't stand it. And sadly, when I've taken stuff to Adepticon or GenCon, the general attitude in the iron arena is similar. I played a league once locally until, a week in, two guys already had their stamp books filled. I don't have that kind of time. Not very fun.

I'd like to play infinity more, but the community isn't there. Which is a shame because I love the models.

 darefsky wrote:
I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

I've stated several times that I play lots of games. 3 gaming nights a week varying games weekly.

40K, 7TV, Doctor Who minis, Malifaux, Board Games (Eclipse, Settlers of Catan, Twilight Imperium, Ticket to Ride, etc.), lots of RPGs, Heroclix, D&D minis, Star Wars minis. I have over £4000 worth of Star Wars minis and have spent nearly £1000 on Heroclix in the last year. And I'd have no problem with playing WM or Infinity if the group wanted to. I have no 'loyalty' to any game or company.

I'm pretty apathetic towards GW or any other gaming company but I do not find GW prices unreasonable compared to everything else I'm buying.

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

I'm actually at a loss as to even suggest where you can begin looking.

For what a GW army costs, I can often get 2 from other companies. For every other gaming system I'm into at the moment I've bought/will buy multiple factions (Hail Ceasar: Romans* & Celts*, Bolt Action: Russians* & Germans*, EOTD: Brotherhood,Vampires & Bobbies, 6mm WWII: Brits & Germans). For GW systems I have a single army (IG) because the cost of collecting & maintaining another one makes it feel like poor value for money. I'll easily spend enough to get started on a new 40K army in a month (£180 on EOTD this month), but I feel like I get more out of it if I spend it on other companies ranges.

*Armies with similar figure size and counts to 40K/WHF, the rest are skirmish games or an incompatible scale.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

I reckon a price drop of about 30% across the board would allow them to be more competitive whilst still remaining 'premium'. They should easily be able to produce better figures for less than smaller companies producing figures of similar size & detail by the same sculptures in the same material.

Scrapping the rules (including army books) and hiring someone (Allesio or Rick P both work freelance) to start a new set would also help greatly, because a lot of the value in the figures comes from how good the game is, and compared to everything else I've read/played, the GW rules are awful; badly written, hard to follow, overly complicated and relying on an absolute overabundance of special rules to add 'character' which turns games into a rule searching exercise.


Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy 40K and it's currently my most played game, partially because it's still the biggest player, but I can't pretend it's the best or best value out there.

Noir wrote:
No for a lagre-scale Sci Fi game you play Epic and Dropzone. 40K is a skirmish game, plan and simple, we know this becouse they have down lagre-scale sci fi before and 40K is not it. Dust is a very close fit, it a skrimish sci fi (yes set in WW2, still sci fi), uses groups of models for units, has vehicles (including legged ones), even heros that make there units better (sure they can only join a group before the game starts). That just the stuff off the top of my head, hell they even both have zombies and apes soldiers.

40k is too big for a skirmish game. Necromunda was a skirmish game, 1st edition 40k was a skirmish game. 2nd was bigger but you still limited the total figures on the table unless it was a really big game. Since then the game has expanded so much, unless you play 'kill team' rules, the expectation is for a huge number if figures to be used. Then removed piles of them at the role of a die, that's not a skirmish game. Alongside the price increases is a restructuring if their games to make them bigger and bigger, fantasy is just ridiculously expensive now. You same that they've done large scale wargames before, presumably Epic, but now they encourage Apocalypse, which is almost Epic in 40k scale.

In 2nd edition you only needed a rhino, a couple of squads, an elite unit like terminators and a few characters and you were easily at 2000 points with wargear. That was skirmish, when your army was less than 30 marines and you still had a game that would last all afternoon. But then it changed with 3rd edition and everything got cheaper in army lists and armies ballooned.

What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their customers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

Which makes it easier, even for GW lovers to give other games a try and maybe get away from GW products.

And while that process has been going on for quite a while, it seems to have reached a point where it actually
became a valid argument for starting another wargame than 40k or fantasy.

 IPS wrote:
What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their costumers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

Which makes it easier, even for GW lovers to give other games a try and maybe get away from GW products.

And while that process has been going on for quite a while, it seems to have reached a point where it actually
became a valid argument for starting another wargame than 40k or fantasy.

That certainly seems to be a growing opinion, yes.

Personally a valid argument for me for starting a new wargame was "because it's there to try, and I like gaming, so I'll try it" (and once I realised how much more fun and well-designed other games were, and how much cheaper they were, I never looked back). Different people have different buttons that need pressing though in order to instigate change, and cost/value is probably the most common one.

Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

I could go to a thrift store and buy a bag of plastic soldiers for a quid. Doesn't mean I consider the cost of other games unreasonable.

As a customer GW gives me more than any other games companies do. Free painting advice, and the guys in my local GW stores are good. Warhammer World lets me game on their tables using their terrain all day for free.

Everyone has their own opinon on right & wrong, cheap & expensive. And personal experience will also taint individuals opinons. It does still bug me a little that GW no longer stocks role-playing games. But I've generally had bad experiences of LGS.

At the end of the day you buy and play the games you want to and have fun.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

Most posters are concerened with the price of the entry barrier? Despite that DV is a very good deal? Pfft.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

So? That is their fault then. There aren't multiple entry barriers. If you do not want to look for second-hand armies, you are to blame yourself. The entry barrier is where you want it to be. Nobody forces you to pay the SRP. It's your decision.

I therefore disagree. My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

And your army will stay valid for a LONG time. My Necron army is at 1850 points and thus complete. Paid 200€ for it. Sounds like a lot. But I got it for a few months now and it will stay valid until either a new codex or a new BRB comes out. That's a hell of a long time. We're talking of several YEARS here.

 BryllCream wrote:

Most posters are concerened with the price of the entry barrier? Despite that DV is a very good deal? Pfft.

What if the prospective player doesn't want either army that is in it? I'm not actually overly concenred with the 'entry barrier' issue myself, but I wonder why you think a faction-limited starter set is some sort of magic answer to it.

My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

I can't wait to use that line to sell wargaming as a potential hobby!

"Take up GW in your free time. It's expensive, but with work, patience and perseverance it can be less expensive!"

Riquende wrote:


"Take up GW in your free time. It's expensive, but with work, patience and perseverance it can be less expensive!"

Consistently pursuing an activity by investing money, time and work in it sounds pretty much like a textbook definition for a hobby to me.

And: freedom of choice. You don't have to. You can buy stuff directly from GW - and then pay more. It's your decision.

Fantasy players really do have Kings of War as a viable alternative. A lot of gamers at my club are playing that now.

 IPS wrote:
What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their customers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

That's a big part of it. With the public relations of say, Privateer or Wyrd (as well as how they handle new releases and pay attention to their game balance), I get the impression that they like their fans, and want them to enjoy their games. With GW, they want to make money out of me, and that's about it. Collecting a competitive army for a reasonable price feels like a battle of wits where I have to thwart their constant attempts to get me to spend more and more and more.

Another factor might be that the Warhammers are kind of....finished. All the factions are out, and have all of their stuff, so the only way to keep producing models is to add gimmicks onto armies or rulesets, or re-release old models, only busier in sculpts and with a why-not price hike attached.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

So? That is their fault then. There aren't multiple entry barriers. If you do not want to look for second-hand armies, you are to blame yourself. The entry barrier is where you want it to be. Nobody forces you to pay the SRP. It's your decision.

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

We're, as vets, all aware you can get GW stuff cheap (I got most of my army on ebay), but that doesn't have any impact on the barrier to entry.

I therefore disagree. My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

I don't think I could get into any other hobby if I was told "well yeah, it's expensive, but if you work hard enough you can find most of it 2nd hand". I'd rather buy it new, and if I've no allegience to GW or buy-in to any existing system, why should I choose GW over anything in my FLGS, assuming I don't know much about any of it?

And your army will stay valid for a LONG time. My Necron army is at 1850 points and thus complete. Paid 200€ for it. Sounds like a lot. But I got it for a few months now and it will stay valid until either a new codex or a new BRB comes out. That's a hell of a long time. We're talking of several YEARS here.

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
Collecting a competitive army for a reasonable price feels like a battle of wits where I have to thwart their constant attempts to get me to spend more and more and more.

That's how it feels to me too. I actually probably get more enjoyment out of beating GW at this game than I do from playing 40K. Like buying stuff before the price jumps up or it goes to finecast gives me a small victory despite the fact I'm giving them money anyway.

Herzlos wrote:

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

People that get into the hobby are most likely either people who

a) know veterans that made them join the hobby and thus know about 2nd hand

or

b) people who buy the beginner set which is pretty good value

I assume the latter picking up the hobby soon going on the internet and joining forums, judging, among other facts, by the pretty considerable amount of people asking for list advice for their first army among all forums related to the hobby of some sort.

Most FLGS I know also offer second hand armies.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

Again, no. That is not what I said. GW is still expensive. I merely pointed out that the entry barrier is lower than some people make it out to be. Even when buying first hand, you can easily save 20% off the normal retail price by buying via online retailers. The reason why second hand is so cheap doesn't matter either, especially for newcomers. Sure, other systems are cheaper. But why do you care for GW then if you seek cheaper systems

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

If you are not willing to pay 50$ every few YEARS, you got issues. Seriously. I could not talk straight to someone complaining about paying 100$ every few years for a hobby. Hell, joining a football club is more expensive than that and I don't see people complaining about it either. Sure, you could change to another system. Or go having dinner with your girlfriend. Or filling up on gas. I don't see your point.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

People that get into the hobby are most likely either people who

a) know veterans that made them join the hobby and thus know about 2nd hand

or

b) people who buy the beginner set which is pretty good value

I assume the latter picking up the hobby soon going on the internet and joining forums, judging, among other facts, by the pretty considerable amount of people asking for list advice for their first army among all forums related to the hobby of some sort.

Most FLGS I know also offer second hand armies.

Ok then, maybe the question should be "Has GW finally that magic number that will price people out of GW retail?". But you also need to bear in mind that not everything is available 2nd hand or discounted. I don't believe that the majority of people new to the hobby are aware of 2nd hand, otherwise why is GW marketting at them? Who's buying all the new stuff?

The starter set is good value for DA or C:SM players, new and old. But it's pretty poor value for anyone else. If I'm new and want to play any other army, I have to choose between buying the DV set for the book, and trade out the figures, or buy the BRB + whatever figures I want.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

Again, no. That is not what I said. GW is still expensive. I merely pointed out that the entry barrier is lower than some people make it out to be. Even when buying first hand, you can easily save 20% off the normal retail price by buying via online retailers. The reason why second hand is so cheap doesn't matter either, especially for newcomers. Sure, other systems are cheaper. But why do you care for GW then if you seek cheaper systems

I don't seek cheaper systems, I'm just comparing it to other systems which happen to be cheaper, just as if I was browsing an LGS.

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

If you are not willing to pay 50$ every few YEARS, you got issues. Seriously. I could not talk straight to someone complaining about paying 100$ every few years for a hobby. Hell, joining a football club is more expensive than that and I don't see people complaining about it either. Sure, you could change to another system. Or go having dinner with your girlfriend. Or filling up on gas. I don't see your point.

I can afford the money easily, my objection is more than to keep current I need to re-buy something grossly overpriced that has barely changed. The fluff and 90% of the rules are the same, so I only really need 10% of the rules section of the book, yet it's a £45 ($70?) purchase. The same goes for the army books. It just feels like a cynical cash grab.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
I reckon a price drop of about 30% across the board would allow them to be more competitive whilst still remaining 'premium'. They should easily be able to produce better figures for less than smaller companies producing figures of similar size & detail by the same sculptures in the same material.

Scrapping the rules (including army books) and hiring someone (Allesio or Rick P both work freelance) to start a new set would also help greatly, because a lot of the value in the figures comes from how good the game is, and compared to everything else I've read/played, the GW rules are awful; badly written, hard to follow, overly complicated and relying on an absolute overabundance of special rules to add 'character' which turns games into a rule searching exercise.


Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy 40K and it's currently my most played game, partially because it's still the biggest player, but I can't pretend it's the best or best value out there.

30%. Screw GW, I'd like food & petrol to drop by 30%. And my mortgage for that matter

I don't think that GW minis are cheap.
I don't think GW are the best value for money, but don't think they are the worst.
I just don't think they are unreasonably expensive when compared not only to the gaming industry but goods in general.

Herzlos wrote:

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

Nope. You said that once you've got an army it's valid for years and I just pointed out an example where it isn't and where I was caught out. My point was that it was valid when I bought it and then became invalid overnight*. It's not the only army or unit to become useless, it's just the only one I happened to own. Is it an invalid observation because it's not recent enough for you? It's still a precedent that your GW purchase may not be valid in the future.

I'm someone who used to play Warhammer, dropped out when my army got canned, and hasn't been able to justify getting back into it (I've nearly bought into a new dwarf army 3 or 4 times in the last couple of years and decided against it when I've seen something better).