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Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

I said standard tourney points level as that's the easiest way to get a clear gauge of a standard game size.

My underlying point was the cost of getting enough of an army together to go into a club and take part in whatever campaign/pick up games they are running.

So ignore my mention of tournaments. How much will it cost for me to get involved in a club or store community in a given game system?

I agree that 500 points is playable if you fudge the org charts a bit, but the reality is that you'll rarely see anyone offering 500pt campaign or pick up games. 1000pt seems to be the min for 40K from what I can tell.

I certainly need at least 1000 points to take part in any events at warhammer world, or are GW's own events unrealistic of how they expect people to be playing?

 cincydooley wrote:


Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The GW kryptonite on the last point there is Perry Bros plastics. With those box sets you generally spend less than 1 dollar per model. The sculpting quality is fantastic, the casts are always excellent with very good mold design and sprue layout, the models offer a variety of poses and options, and the frames are simply packed with extra bits.

Out of one box of Perry War of the Roses Mercenaries I've made two Mordheim warbands and a full 16 model Blood Bowl team, and I am still mining the sprues for bits, some of which I have used to customize my ACW Confederate Infantry (which are being used for a weird west game). Perry's plastic box sets are very compatible across different sets and ranges, allowing for a whirl of conversion and kitbashing opportunities, just like GW.

And all for the price of less than 1 dollar per model and models that require virtually no cleanup prior to assembly because of carefully designed molds.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

As for the disconnect, I've started a thread to try and establish what the minimum commonly playable size is here : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508912.page

Yes you can play DV out of the box, but only the scenarios without adding other items because: the armies aren't codex legal, or balance, and IMHO don't provide enough for any real game. They are a great starting point though and ideal for allies. But you couldn't just expect to buy the DV set and nothing else for the entirety if you want to play outwith a home game with friends.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

Everything you said here is completely valid. I want to add that no company has to care about its customers but it does have to "Give the Appearance" That it does. This can be done lots of ways. GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

Where PP and Wyrd are ahead is in the customer communications area. They both have a very concerted effort to reach out and engage with the player base, Be it on the forums, at Cons, heck its been said that time and time again if your playing at a FLGS in the Seatle area, chances are some of the Big Wigs from PP will show up to play a game and talk to folks. These companies also actively seek feedback and play testing.

Now PP is a multi-million dollar company, they are still private and who knows how long it will be before they go public which I sincerely hope they never do, but hey ya never know.



Oh yea, as to tournament level talk, That's pretty much what most people play the games at. I honestly cant think of a 500pt 40k game I have ever seen that wasn't a quick demo.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, Id have added a few swear words, but other than that, gold standard post.

As if any company "cares" about you. They "care" how much you spend, and some companies think its worth making you think that they give a feth about you, some don't, it depends on their strategy and how much they believe that making you feel special will impact on their sales.

Each to their own.. generally speaking, companies that can smell a guaranteed sale either way don't much give a gak if you think they care about you or not, but either way they don't REALLY care, its just an illusion, designed to make more cash.

All they care about is profit, and frankly If I was a shareholder in a company, I would be mortally offended if the CEO was doing anything other than try and make me more money for my investment, I don't give a flying feth if the unwashed strangers (customers) think I actually give two feths about them.

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

Nonsense.

I emailed GW because I was missing two pairs of legs from a veterans box, I have loads of spare legs, but after reading about their customer service I sent a quick email "Hi normally I wouldnt even mention it but...." and after they asked for my order number, a week later I got an entire new box full, and I had to do nothing. Send them nothing, ask for nothing, literally feth all.

So what pray tell, is this "worse" than? And exactly how do you "better" sending you a box full of free miniatures, not requiring any forms filled in, phone calls made or postage charges?

Do liberation or Empress miniatures send a high class hooker round your house with your extra miniatures wedged between her arse cheeks?

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

I've dealt with PP and GW customer care. Both are friendly and extremely professorial, where GW has been better in my experience is that they were able to get the new models/pieces to me much much faster.

Where it has taken me 3 weeks to get the missing lower torso for my Conquest and over a month to get a replacement card for my Behemoth that wasn't in the box. I don't remember waiting more than about a week or so for stuff from GW.

And yea before anyone goes saying that I am now going soft on GW I still don't like their rules/prices and have stopped playing their games, but I will always strive to be honest and give credit where credit is begrudgingly due.....

The OP's question refers to "people". Veterans and Beginners are subsets of "people". Veterans are formed into two groups. Those who love the hobby and will continue to spend, and those who have reached their limit. It is clear from this 50+ page thread that veterans have well formed opinions that are unlikely to be swayed. Even newcomers to the hobby who have already started their armies have strongly formed opinions based on whether they are currently continuing their army building process or have quit because of cost. This leaves newcomers to the hobby, who don't have as stronly entrenched opinions.

Ergo, barrier to entry is IMHO the main deciding factor as to whether GW's pricing has reached the tipping point where it is pricing people (in this case, prospective customers) out of the hobby. To this effect, I'd like to address the two main arguements in support of GW's current pricing approach as it relates to "starting the hobby". I'd like to clarify that when I refer to the "hobby", my definition for this is:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

 keezus wrote:
The OP's question refers to "people". Veterans and Beginners are subsets of "people". Veterans are formed into two groups. Those who love the hobby and will continue to spend, and those who have reached their limit. It is clear from this 50+ page thread that veterans have well formed opinions that are unlikely to be swayed. Even newcomers to the hobby who have already started their armies have strongly formed opinions based on whether they are currently continuing their army building process or have quit because of cost. This leaves newcomers to the hobby, who don't have as stronly entrenched opinions.

Ergo, barrier to entry is IMHO the main deciding factor as to whether GW's pricing has reached the tipping point where it is pricing people (in this case, prospective customers) out of the hobby. To this effect, I'd like to address the two main arguements in support of GW's current pricing approach as it relates to "starting the hobby". I'd like to clarify that when I refer to the "hobby", my definition for this is:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

Well done and thought out argument. I would also add things like painting supplies, modeling supplies ect but that comes with each and every game....

 keezus wrote:
...snip...

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

Well thought out but needs a bit more IMHO.

First, most new players are not going to know the ins and outs of a gaming system enough to know about buying in a secondary market or get a discount on retail.

Second, as has been evidenced in my FLGS. The problem with GWs entry sets is that, out of 14 armies, a beginner will like Dark Angels or Chaos. The chances are much, much higher that there are more that will like one of the other twelve armies in the range. With that, there is no way in heck a player can start for $150-$200. With the other systems, the starting costs are roughly the same right across the board for any faction the player wants to play.

The problem I see is, to support the argument that GW isn't that expensive to get into to versus other systems requires a very specific path of getting the cost down whereas their competition doesn't.

Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.

Now, here is where pricing the veterans out comes to hurt GW. The veterans in my neck of the woods have given up on GW in almost entirety and mainly switched to historicals with some Warmahordes.

Now this is how this really hurts GW:

A new player comes into the store wanting to get into wargaming. Inevitably, it always happens the same way. They walk over to the tables, gawking over the gorgeous terrain and painted minis (historical players NEVER put unpainted minis on the table - proxies yes, but never unpainted). They see two games of FoW going on, a game of Bolt Action, two games of Black Power (one Civil War and the other AWI) and a game of Warmahordes. They eventually stop and watch one of the games (in this case it was Bolt Action this particular evening). One of the players notices the kid standing there and offers him to run a unit of his in the game. He helps him and kindly explains the rules as he plays (btw, another thing I noticed is just how willing historical players are to get new people into the hobby). The kid plays for a little while then goes over to look at the Warlord stuff (the Bolt Action manufacturer). The guy that let him play one of his units takes a break for a few minutes and goes over to the kid and asks if he has any questions (that guy is just a customer of the store, he doesn't work there). The kid does and eventually walks out with two boxed sets of American Infantry, an M4 Sherman tank, a set of Bolt Action rules and the Americans sourcebook. How much Warhammer or 40k do you think he is going to be playing in the future?

The point of this story, is this is a rather common occurence in my current local FLGS and has always been this way in other FLGS I have frequented. Point is, most people getting into the HOBBY, are getting into wargaming in general - which isn't just GW. And most are going to get into what is mainly played at their FLGS or that their friends are playing. GW has forgotten that THIS is the main reason people get into the hobby and that they do have a lot of competition today, unlike they had in the 90s.

@Wayshuba: I agree 100% with your points. I wanted to give the lowest entry point possible as an exercise, and to be honest, it was much lower than I expected as I always had a mental image of around $400. In my area, it appears that most of the GW store sales happens in the GW stores where you don't have the intrusion of other games. The environment at the independents is exactly how you describe it with players of other games actively steering new players away from GW products.

With regards to 40k: at my FLGS the usual exchange is.

Customer: "Hey man, got the new DA codex?"
Owner: "Yeah... got a copy right here"
Customer: "Cool. How much is it? (Bracing self for the $45 range)
Owner: "$60." (I am in Canada)
Customer: "$*#&&#!!!!" and puts it back.

Another common exchange is:

Customer: "This DV box has everything you need to play?"
Owner: "Yup! It even has the rulebook included."
Customer: "Ok. My son can play with his friends at school with the contents?"
Owner: "Well... he might need some add-ons."
Customer: "Oh. OK. How much is this" (motions to an add-on)
Owner: "Oh. That's $40. But you need a codex to use it... that lists all the units in the army."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Owner: "$60"
Customer: "OK little Timmy. Mommy will have to think about this. Let's go."

 keezus wrote:
@Wayshuba: I agree 100% with your points. I wanted to give the lowest entry point possible as an exercise, and to be honest, it was much lower than I expected as I always had a mental image of around $400. In my area, it appears that most of the GW store sales happens in the GW stores where you don't have the intrusion of other games. The environment at the independents is exactly how you describe it with players of other games actively steering new players away from GW products.

With regards to 40k: at my FLGS the usual exchange is.

Customer: "Hey man, got the new DA codex?"
Owner: "Yeah... got a copy right here"
Customer: "Cool. How much is it? (Bracing self for the $45 range)
Owner: "$60." (I am in Canada)
Customer: "$*#&&#!!!!" and puts it back.

Another common exchange is:

Customer: "This DV box has everything you need to play?"
Owner: "Yup! It even has the rulebook included."
Customer: "Ok. My son can play with his friends at school with the contents?"
Owner: "Well... he might need some add-ons."
Customer: "Oh. OK. How much is this" (motions to an add-on)
Owner: "Oh. That's $40. But you need a codex to use it... that lists all the units in the army."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Owner: "$60"
Customer: "OK little Timmy. Mommy will have to think about this. Let's go."

Thanks for the laugh. The second one reminds me of an earlier post I made in this thread when a father saw the figures rung up and he said "I'm not paying two hundred dollars for some plastic men."

Wayshuba wrote:
A new player comes into the store wanting to get into wargaming. Inevitably, it always happens the same way. They walk over to the tables, gawking over the gorgeous terrain and painted minis (historical players NEVER put unpainted minis on the table - proxies yes, but never unpainted). They see two games of FoW going on, a game of Bolt Action, two games of Black Power (one Civil War and the other AWI) and a game of Warmahordes. They eventually stop and watch one of the games (in this case it was Bolt Action this particular evening). One of the players notices the kid standing there and offers him to run a unit of his in the game. He helps him and kindly explains the rules as he plays (btw, another thing I noticed is just how willing historical players are to get new people into the hobby). The kid plays for a little while then goes over to look at the Warlord stuff (the Bolt Action manufacturer). The guy that let him play one of his units takes a break for a few minutes and goes over to the kid and asks if he has any questions (that guy is just a customer of the store, he doesn't work there). The kid does and eventually walks out with two boxed sets of American Infantry, an M4 Sherman tank, a set of Bolt Action rules and the Americans sourcebook. How much Warhammer or 40k do you think he is going to be playing in the future?.

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

Nonsense.

I emailed GW because I was missing two pairs of legs from a veterans box, I have loads of spare legs, but after reading about their customer service I sent a quick email "Hi normally I wouldnt even mention it but...." and after they asked for my order number, a week later I got an entire new box full, and I had to do nothing. Send them nothing, ask for nothing, literally feth all.

So what pray tell, is this "worse" than? And exactly how do you "better" sending you a box full of free miniatures, not requiring any forms filled in, phone calls made or postage charges?

Do liberation or Empress miniatures send a high class hooker round your house with your extra miniatures wedged between her arse cheeks?

Seems like the only difference between that and PP's service is that they don't give you a full box (Although GW probably does that because they don't have separate bits).

Mattman154 wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

This is too funny, but does make me think of another point. I have to admit, only being into historicals for the last five years (of the 32 years I've been playing hobby games) and I have come to find that historical players, in general, are some of the nicest and most laid-back group of people I have ever had the opportunity to game with. They truly understand the hobby aspect of having a good time with friends playing a game. In five years, I have not met one single aggressive or unfriendly player in historicals. It really does up the enjoyment of the hobby in general with these types of people. Reminds me of my D&D days back in high school and college (which was quite a long time ago).

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"


Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

 keezus wrote:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

I guestimate the points of 2 DV Dark Angel sets at about 1100 or 1200 points because of the excess HQs. I don't know of any one kit that makes up for the 300-400 points you would need for 1500 for Dark Angels as you described. I figure you would need to spend at least $150 ish. I'm also not 100% sure that the trade follows your thesis of MSRP. Just little quibbles I had.

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

Not sure if you're calling me a dick, page 5 jerk, both, or neither

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

In fact it does. Page 5 contains the following "Five Rules of Page 5"

1) Thou shalt not whine,

2) Come heavy, or Don't come at all,

3) Give as Good as you get,

4) Win Graciously and Lose Valiantly,

5) Page 5 is not an Excuse.

Specifically under #5 is the following admonishment "Most importantly - and let's state this loud and clear for the record- Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition."

Mattman154 wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

Not sure if you're calling me a dick, page 5 jerk, both, or neither

Not calling anyone anything. Buzzsaw got what I was saying.

Sorry for not parsing it out well. I'm American, so English is a second language, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Specifically under #5 is the following admonishment "Most importantly - and let's state this loud and clear for the record- Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition."

I guess this would be a bit of an assault on the Page 5 stereotype.

I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Yea, I don't get how people can use Page 5 as a tool to be an ass. I interpret that as be a good sport but give your best.

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

 Grimtuff wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

Huh?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

Huh?

I believe he's talking about the "Roll off for rules debate" point.

Not replied to anything on Dakka for ages but couldn't resist.

I don't personally find GW that expensive when compared to some other activities I do. In fact I find it to be quite good value for money in retrospect. For example I am not a "must buy every army"kind of guy. I have played Tau for the past 9 years almost exclusively only recently starting Necrons. Most of that army has been bought from eBay or Online but I have bought a couple of units from Warhammer World direct when I visit. These models provide me with HOURS/DAYS of fun - I enjoy putting them together, I enjoy spending time painting them and I love spending a few hours a week playing. I just plan my buying more these days I guess.

I play Airsoft a lot and that to me offers a lot less £ per Hour entertainment value than Wargaming/GW. £20 Entry fee, £7-10 per 3000's BBs, £250 Gun plus accersories, MOLLE vests, boots. Etc. I know it's not ideal to compare completely different hobbies but I really get my monies worth from Wargaming.

I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?