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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 13:06:19
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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cincydooley wrote:Wayshuba wrote:So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.
Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....
Jussayin.
That just isn't a fair representation of wargaming products currently available at all. There are lots of plastic models out there from other manufacturers, and some are of a very high standard. I don't really get the hate for metal, metal casting allows for things you just can't do in plastic, they are different materials with different casting properties. And GW replaced their metal with finecast, that's nothing to cheer about.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 13:57:08
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Howard A Treesong wrote: cincydooley wrote:Wayshuba wrote:So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.
Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....
Jussayin.
That just isn't a fair representation of wargaming products currently available at all. There are lots of plastic models out there from other manufacturers, and some are of a very high standard. I don't really get the hate for metal, metal casting allows for things you just can't do in plastic, they are different materials with different casting properties. And GW replaced their metal with finecast, that's nothing to cheer about.
Seriously. The comparison of "Multi-part Plastic" to "Metal" as "Modern Digital" to "Early 90s Film" is somewhere between "Lacking in perspective" to "Wholly out of touch with reality". Plastic is light, and easy to cut but that's about all I'm willing to give in the "Win" column. Most everything else is a trade off. Also having a billion different parts and gubbins to stick everywhere is really only relevant in a rule set that requires a lot of gear swapping. If your armies consistent of relatively consistently equipped combatants suddenly being able to mix-and-match loses a ton of utility.
EDIT: I'll grant I like the casting quality and sharpness of GWs plastics more than a lot of other companies plastics, including those of my preffered game ( WM/H) just to show I'm willing to give them something. However, as has been pointed out metal is fine material that does a lot of good stuff.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 14:00:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 14:02:07
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Horrific Howling Banshee
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e to the Bay is the way i go...last new models were three Eldar War Walkers around 25-30€ that i bought from GW...i´m not so much in to painting that i am into gaming, so, i get painted models home brought with the same prize (or cheaper) than from a GW-shop. Oh, and i bought three Hornets from Forgeworld due to the fact that, they weren´t available in eBay...I will buy next Eldar codex immediately, but that´s about it...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 14:28:18
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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cincydooley wrote:Appreciate your anecdote but GW really isn't in any danger of lagging behind the others.
You keep telling yourself that... years ago, everyone was ripping PP for being some small startup that was going to die the same horrible death as Warzone, Void and Confrontation. The naysayers complained that the models were ugly and primitive and the range was tiny. Now they are No. 2. This attitude is EXACTLY how the sector leader gets supplanted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 14:43:30
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Bloodtracker
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As reds8n saw fit to remove part of my post.. I will ad the Important part back with a less agressive attitude. "I Started Tabletop gaming in the late 1980s early 1990s.. Me and my friends made several attempts from the 1990-2000s to get into Warhammer 40k/WHFB. They all failed, and it just ended up costing me Money. During the last decade I have tried again but it Failed and it cost me some more money. I then started Warmachine in 2010 and I have been playing non-stop ever since. And I have started asking myself why this is...
The Reasons Games Workshop always failed to hold our interest and just became a money pit/sink is the following
1: When a group of friends pick up the games workshop hobby , everyone wants to pick their own army. But because of slow Codex uppdates, several of the people in the "friends group" soon find themselves with outdated Armies, and just cant win anymore. They lose interest and soon after quit (not many people I know are interested in buying more armies to stay competetive, its just easier to quit and call your losses). Those that are left either have to find new people to play with or join their friends doing something ells, that everyone finds fun... I have always ended up "leaving my armies in the basement collecting dust". This has happend 3 times during the last two decades.. GW has only done one thing for me "COST ME MONEY". I also play RPG games and those we have played Non-stop for decades, with no breaks.. It has just been a way better way to have fun with my friends then sinking thousands of dollars into Games workshop games. A decade back there where no alternatives to Games Workshop (accept Historical Wargaming, and I never could get anyone to try that with me hehe).
2: It takes to much effort and money to get an army going, I always painted up my stuff, but others thought it was a chore, and just wanted to play..
3: When you are finaly done (spent tons of Cash and effort building your armies). And are getting ready to play you soon come to understand that there are hughe HOLES in the game design. Making for an Unfair and Unbalanced gaming experince..
These are the 3 Main Reasons Why you should never buy any Games Workshop product, Because It is a SCAM. Take 6th edition for example its geard Towards shooting, do you all think its an accident that Eldar, TAU and IPG might be ready for a new Codex Release??
I personaly think that We as a Community of Wargamers should acknowledge the fact that Games Workshop has become "bad business". And take some MORAL responsibility towards the next generation of Wargamers and stop advocating Games Workshop games.. And show them better and cheaper games... The Games Workshop Hobby is overpriced, not fun to play and the business model behind it is really awful, as its mainly focused towards childrean..
You can think what you want about this. But I think those 3 reasons have happend to many people that have tried to get into table top wargaming, but Because Games Workshop was the first game they got into, they never stuck with it. I really feel that GW is bad for our Hobby.. they need to get shut down. Or man up to their mistakes and change the Game design of their games and stop selling overpriced plastic men to childrean..
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/22 14:52:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 14:48:03
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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***Warning turned into a rant... soooo sorry****
I would think with how GW is focused is a two tier approach:
Starter box set for the beginners.
All other releases for those "updating" their existing armies.
Bright side is they are at parity with Forge World!
To get pretty much everything that is Dark Angels it would cost ~$1200 not including the standard marine transports, tanks and dreadnaughts (??!!). I could get a decent dirt bike, computer or three different game systems for that cost.
I guess I am trying to say is they now are competing with large ticket items of disposable income and are now outside of the $20 impulse buy products they used to have easily available.
My local gaming store refuses to deal with them, saying that GW's sense of entitlement and dictating terms was getting them angry so Magic the Gathering, Flames of War, Hordes and Warmachine are the games of choice.
"I" get angry with the new White Dwarf when I see an item for the USA is $60 and in Canada it is $75 and our dollar is more (they were right in hiding it in the past, now my nose is rubbed in it monthly!).
Bottom Line: Wish they could get a clue about their pricing.
I now buy 1/5 what I used to due to the prices. I am afraid what their next "plan" will be if this present course is not working out.
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 14:51:06
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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keezus wrote: cincydooley wrote:Appreciate your anecdote but GW really isn't in any danger of lagging behind the others.
You keep telling yourself that... years ago, everyone was ripping PP for being some small startup that was going to die the same horrible death as Warzone, Void and Confrontation. The naysayers complained that the models were ugly and primitive and the range was tiny. Now they are No. 2. This attitude is EXACTLY how the sector leader gets supplanted.
Sigh. And who, really, did they have to supplant to be #2? Not really anyone. We won't be able to compare anything apples to apples unless Privateer releases a yearly or even quarterly earnings statement, and they under no onus to as they're private. But even if they do, I'd be INCREDIBLY surprised if their revenue and/or profit margin even outstripes Forge World, let alone GW as a whole.
And seriously. I need someone to link me to these plastics that are so superior to GWs. I've worked with both the new Malifaux and Bolt Action plastics, and while they're nice, they do not have the level of detail or the crispness of detail that the GW ones do. I'd love to buy these mythical superior multi part plastics and work with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:03:11
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Nucflash wrote:
1: When a group of friends pick up the games workshop hobby , everyone wants to pick their own army. But because of slow Codex uppdates, several of the people in the "friends group" soon find themselves with outdated Armies, and just cant win anymore. They lose interest and soon after quit (not many people I know are interested in buying more armies to stay competetive, its just easier to quit and call your losses). Those that are left either have to find new people to play with or join their friends doing something ells, that everyone finds fun... I have always ended up "leaving my armies in the basement collecting dust". This has happend 3 times during the last two decades.. GW has only done one thing for me "COST ME MONEY". I also play RPG games and those we have played Non-stop for decades, with no breaks.. It has just been a way better way to have fun with my friends then sinking thousands of dollars into Games workshop games. A decade back there where no alternatives to Games Workshop (accept Historical Wargaming, and I never could get anyone to try that with me hehe).
Hit the nail on the head in this part here.
My friends and I get sucked into different armies that we identify with but any time someone gets a shiny new codex or some addendum or rules change the crying and nashing of teeth cycle begins again. We keep falling back to Batteltech, Epic or Field of Glory when the "Holes" get to be too much. However, we have successfully got our friend to play Squats since we keep using the original Codex and "update" to match the flavor of the month and it works out well, sometimes it can be funny in the extreme.
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:15:36
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Bloodtracker
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cincydooley wrote: keezus wrote: cincydooley wrote:Appreciate your anecdote but GW really isn't in any danger of lagging behind the others.
You keep telling yourself that... years ago, everyone was ripping PP for being some small startup that was going to die the same horrible death as Warzone, Void and Confrontation. The naysayers complained that the models were ugly and primitive and the range was tiny. Now they are No. 2. This attitude is EXACTLY how the sector leader gets supplanted.
Sigh. And who, really, did they have to supplant to be #2? Not really anyone. We won't be able to compare anything apples to apples unless Privateer releases a yearly or even quarterly earnings statement, and they under no onus to as they're private. But even if they do, I'd be INCREDIBLY surprised if their revenue and/or profit margin even outstripes Forge World, let alone GW as a whole.
And seriously. I need someone to link me to these plastics that are so superior to GWs. I've worked with both the new Malifaux and Bolt Action plastics, and while they're nice, they do not have the level of detail or the crispness of detail that the GW ones do. I'd love to buy these mythical superior multi part plastics and work with them.
To be honest man. And I'm talking as a fellow gamer to another. Why do you keep suporting Games Workshop? I think its very clear what they stand for. They push Vetrans out of their shops because they do not want negative feedback, that might effect sales. They design the Rules with one purpose in mind "sell more armies". They slow down Codex updates to try and force their customers to pick up a new army's instead. Each edition of the main rules, changes things that will sell the type of models they are planing on releasing in the future. White Dwarf has gone from a good gaming magazine with lots of articals back in the 90s to anadvertisement magazine, that really should be handed out for free.. They constantly Up the prices of the models.. They sell the models for diffrent amounts around the world, if you live in Australia, you pay alot more then in the rest of the world for example. They enforce Trade embargos on their retailers. Saying that they cant sell to certain regions of the world. This goes against Free trade rules of the EU. And with the US/ EU new legislation on trade in the works, you could probably soon sue them in the EU courts. They themselves sue little companies that try to make a living, claiming ridicules patent infringements, that they dont even hold. Their Store employee's harass people who walk into their stores (forced to do so because of company policy's)
Seriously dude its not FUN anymore, this company needs to be stoped and the only people who can do it is US the customers.. Stop buying their products, You have a moral responsibility to do so. Saying you like their plastics is not a good enough reason. It is like saying you like a companies carpets, and you will keep buying from them (even when you know they are using child labourers to make them)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: Nucflash wrote:
1: When a group of friends pick up the games workshop hobby , everyone wants to pick their own army. But because of slow Codex uppdates, several of the people in the "friends group" soon find themselves with outdated Armies, and just cant win anymore. They lose interest and soon after quit (not many people I know are interested in buying more armies to stay competetive, its just easier to quit and call your losses). Those that are left either have to find new people to play with or join their friends doing something ells, that everyone finds fun... I have always ended up "leaving my armies in the basement collecting dust". This has happend 3 times during the last two decades.. GW has only done one thing for me "COST ME MONEY". I also play RPG games and those we have played Non-stop for decades, with no breaks.. It has just been a way better way to have fun with my friends then sinking thousands of dollars into Games workshop games. A decade back there where no alternatives to Games Workshop (accept Historical Wargaming, and I never could get anyone to try that with me hehe).
Hit the nail on the head in this part here.
My friends and I get sucked into different armies that we identify with but any time someone gets a shiny new codex or some addendum or rules change the crying and nashing of teeth cycle begins again. We keep falling back to Batteltech, Epic or Field of Glory when the "Holes" get to be too much. However, we have successfully got our friend to play Squats since we keep using the original Codex and "update" to match the flavor of the month and it works out well, sometimes it can be funny in the extreme.
Haha Squats  those were the days.. I have the rules for them still lying around myself... But yes the games can be played.. but you need a book as large as a Codex with "house RULES" to make it fair and even.. We used to have fun times sitting around comming up with ways of making the rules work. Sadly we are "paying Customers" and we should not have to freelance as Hobby Game/rules desingers on our free time, to make the game playabal hehe. That is GWs Jobb, that is what we should be paying them for but sadly they dont give a crap about that. I'm guessing when they do rules it goes a little like this "What rules can we change and make OP so that we can sell these new models"
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/22 15:34:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:28:33
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Nucflash wrote:
To be honest man. And I'm talking as a fellow gamer to another. Why do you keep suporting Games Workshop? I think its very clear what they stand for. They push Vetrans out of their shops because they do not want negative feedback, that might effect sales. They design the Rules with one purpose in mind "sell more armies". They slow down Codex updates to try and force their customers to pick up a new army's instead. Each edition of the main rules, changes things that will sell the type of models they are planing on releasing in the future.
I enjoy the background that they've worked very hard to engage the public in. No other miniature game has a universe even remotely as expansive as the WHFB or 40k universes. Plus I already have armies and the cost for me to play each new edition has been minimal. They design rules to have fun. I appreciate that I don't need to know every combo. I enjoy having a few cocktails with friends and if there's a rule we're unclear on, just going with the common sense result. I'm still playing Space Wolves and Blood Angels plenty competetively. I had no reason to pick up Dark Angels beyond, "oh, those Dark Vengence models are pretty."
White Dwarf has gone from a good gaming magazine with lots of articals back in the 90s to anadvertisement magazine, that really should be handed out for free..
To this I say, "so?" If that's what they choose to make it, then so be it. No one is forcing your hand to buy it. And with the internet and youtube, there are an absolute glut of tutorials out there. It would be cool if GW included new rules in the magazine from time to time, which they have, but with the backlash about not being able to find certain issues after they've gone OOP, I can understand their hesitance to do so anymore.
They constantly Up the prices of the models..
Yes they do. I also paid more for my Cygnar Stormwall than I've ever paid for a non Forge World GW model. So there's that. My gas was under $3 a gallon about a month ago. It's nearly $4 now. I drive less to compensate for my displeasure with this.
Seriously dude its not FUN anymore, this company needs to be stoped and the only people who can do it is US the customers.. Stop buying their products, You have a moral responsibility to do so.
I have no moral responsibility whatsover. I have a moral responsibility to stop a woman from being raped. I have a moral responsibility to stop a child from being abused. I have no moral responsibility to stop a business from trying to sell their product.
And as it stands, I still have a lot of fun with 40k. In April at Adepticon, another 3000 people will also be having fun playing a multitude of wargames, the largest of which will be 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:41:03
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Wraith
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cincydooley wrote: Sigh. And who, really, did they have to supplant to be #2? Not really anyone. We won't be able to compare anything apples to apples unless Privateer releases a yearly or even quarterly earnings statement, and they under no onus to as they're private. But even if they do, I'd be INCREDIBLY surprised if their revenue and/or profit margin even outstripes Forge World, let alone GW as a whole.
May I remind you that WARMACHINE alone supplanted WHFB. HORDES is in fourth. They supplanted an entire GW range with one of their own.
Why can't we compare apples to apples? We're not comparing revenue, we're comparing sales, a generally accepted indicator of popularity.
Why the stawman?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:46:17
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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gunslingerpro wrote: cincydooley wrote: Sigh. And who, really, did they have to supplant to be #2? Not really anyone. We won't be able to compare anything apples to apples unless Privateer releases a yearly or even quarterly earnings statement, and they under no onus to as they're private. But even if they do, I'd be INCREDIBLY surprised if their revenue and/or profit margin even outstripes Forge World, let alone GW as a whole.
May I remind you that WARMACHINE alone supplanted WHFB. HORDES is in fourth. They supplanted an entire GW range with one of their own.
Why can't we compare apples to apples? We're not comparing revenue, we're comparing sales, a generally accepted indicator of popularity.
Why the stawman?
Do we have concrete sales figures from Privateer? I simply couldn't find them. If we do, please share. I'm more than willing to listen to numbers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:48:50
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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Moral obligations?
That's just amusing. The only argument anyone might have in regards to making a moral stand versus GW is in regards to their IP / Trademark bullying. Even then, every attempt they've made has been laughably hamfisted. Spots the Space Marine is already back on Amazon and the Chapterhouse lawsuit has turned into pure farce. In this instance, I think the old saying "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to rank incompetence" applies. They've been getting some fairly bad legal counsel of late and that doesn't make them unethical, just dumb.
Aside from that, if you don't like them while you're free to vote with your wallet, no one else is obligated (morally or otherwise) to follow along. Yes, their game balance is bad. Their rules are downright awful sometimes. Yes, these ARE good reasons to stop buying from a player's / hobbyists standpoint. Morals have nothing to do with it though. You're not changing the world for the better for forgoing GW product. You're making YOUR PLAY/HOBBY EXPERIENCE better.
But it's entirely that. Yours. Your opinion and your experiences. I wholeheartedly agree you should do what makes you happy and pleases you. But also realize what makes other happy can be completely different. I know people who honestly like GW's rules instead of Privateer's or Infinity's. I honestly do it for the models because I love them. I know the faults of the system and of GW. It's an informed choice.
Alternatively, I'm also getting back into WM/H precisely so I can take the occasional break from GW's balance issues. That's my choice. Doesn't mean I don't love my Deathwing still.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 15:52:16
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Bloodtracker
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cincydooley wrote: Nucflash wrote:
To be honest man. And I'm talking as a fellow gamer to another. Why do you keep suporting Games Workshop? I think its very clear what they stand for. They push Vetrans out of their shops because they do not want negative feedback, that might effect sales. They design the Rules with one purpose in mind "sell more armies". They slow down Codex updates to try and force their customers to pick up a new army's instead. Each edition of the main rules, changes things that will sell the type of models they are planing on releasing in the future.
I enjoy the background that they've worked very hard to engage the public in. No other miniature game has a universe even remotely as expansive as the WHFB or 40k universes. Plus I already have armies and the cost for me to play each new edition has been minimal. They design rules to have fun. I appreciate that I don't need to know every combo. I enjoy having a few cocktails with friends and if there's a rule we're unclear on, just going with the common sense result. I'm still playing Space Wolves and Blood Angels plenty competetively. I had no reason to pick up Dark Angels beyond, "oh, those Dark Vengence models are pretty."
White Dwarf has gone from a good gaming magazine with lots of articals back in the 90s to anadvertisement magazine, that really should be handed out for free..
To this I say, "so?" If that's what they choose to make it, then so be it. No one is forcing your hand to buy it. And with the internet and youtube, there are an absolute glut of tutorials out there. It would be cool if GW included new rules in the magazine from time to time, which they have, but with the backlash about not being able to find certain issues after they've gone OOP, I can understand their hesitance to do so anymore.
They constantly Up the prices of the models..
Yes they do. I also paid more for my Cygnar Stormwall than I've ever paid for a non Forge World GW model. So there's that. My gas was under $3 a gallon about a month ago. It's nearly $4 now. I drive less to compensate for my displeasure with this.
Seriously dude its not FUN anymore, this company needs to be stoped and the only people who can do it is US the customers.. Stop buying their products, You have a moral responsibility to do so.
I have no moral responsibility whatsover. I have a moral responsibility to stop a woman from being raped. I have a moral responsibility to stop a child from being abused. I have no moral responsibility to stop a business from trying to sell their product.
And as it stands, I still have a lot of fun with 40k. In April at Adepticon, another 3000 people will also be having fun playing a multitude of wargames, the largest of which will be 40k.
Yes I undestand that you are the type of person who would buy a carpet if you think its nice. even if the company who made it used Child Labourers, because you think you have zero accountability. But guess what you do. Your enabling them to continue their bad business practises. And your actions do have effect. They effect me and thosuands of other people who would like a change for the better. So your actions are indirectly causing Abuse to our wallets, and gaming experinces. If you had some backbone you would undestand that. And you would be Joining the boycott of Games Workshop, You would work for a better tomorrow. But instead you are being selfish and arrogant.
When you Buy a games workshop Product you are in fact suporting their policy that its okey to push overpriced plastic soldiers to little kidds with mommys credit card. Its okey to make Unbalanced rules. Its okey to make rules that are ment to suport more sales (and by this I mean bad rules to force people to buy new armies). The list goes on and on
It is people like you that are the main problem to be honest. Your actions as a group is keeping this going, If you took a stand with the rest of us.. You would bring back more people to your hobby (becuase then GW would have to change for the better) But the fact that you fail to understand this is beyond me...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:00:51
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Nucflash wrote:
Yes I undestand that you are the type of person who would buy a carpet if you think its nice. even if the company who made it used Child Labourers, because you think you have zero accountability. But guess what you do. Your enabling them to continue their bad business practises. And your actions do have effect. They effect me and thosuands of other people who would like a change for the better. So your actions are indirectly causing Abuse to our wallets, and gaming experinces. If you had some backbone you would undestand that. And you would be Joining the boycott of Games Workshop, You would work for a better tomorrow. But instead you are being selfish and arrogant.
I own Nike's and Adidas's and tons of other garments made in the 3rd world, so you're right. I am apparently a morally bankrupt individual that isn't concerned with accountibility. Oh wait, no, I'm not. I think it's hilarious that you use the Child Laborers example with GW, because that is one instance where you have to find that they're on the moral right side. They keep nearly all of their manufacturing in the UK as opposed to outsourcing it to China or Laos. Calling me selfish and arrogant in this respect is laughable. You're already said there are other, better rulesets out there. Go play those! Warmachine is a MUCH tighter ruleset than 40k or WHFB. Tons. Loads.
When you Buy a games workshop Product you are in fact suporting their policy that its okey to push overpriced plastic soldiers to little kidds with mommys credit card. Its okey to make Unbalanced rules. Its okey to make rules that are ment to suport more sales (and by this I mean bad rules to force people to buy new armies). The list goes on and on
Overpriced is completely subjective. No one is forcing mommy or daddy to buy them either. It's absolutely okay to make unbalanced rules. And as a consequence, it's absolutely okay for a company like Privateer to spring up and nab a good portion of the market that want a tighter ruleset. No one is forced to buy a thing. Not a thing.
It is people like you that are the main problem to be honest. Your actions as a group is keeping this going, If you took a stand with the rest of us.. You would bring back more people to your hobby (becuase then GW would have to change for the better) But the fact that you fail to understand this is beyond me...
Without getting too far into a pissing contest, I'd argue it's people like you, with your inarticulate, poorly reasoned arguments, and overwhelming sense of entitlement that are the problem.
Vote with your wallet. That's great. But please, don't go acting like some moral crusader here when the crux of your argument is that "I want to pay less." I still like playing 40k, I love the universe, and if they release a set of models I like, like the Deathwing box, I'll buy it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:08:42
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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@cinceydooley
Just don't feed nucflash.
He tried a similar tactic with me, I now have him on ignore, but as you're quoting him I can still see his bilge!
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:10:48
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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azreal13 wrote:@cinceydooley
Just don't feed nucflash.
He tried a similar tactic with me, I now have him on ignore, but as you're quoting him I can still see his bilge!
Good looking out. Thanks, brother!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:24:03
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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cincydooley wrote:Do we have concrete sales figures from Privateer? I simply couldn't find them. If we do, please share. I'm more than willing to listen to numbers.
ICv2 is aggregating their data from distributors, so it should be a good indicator to overall sales by product line. Even if full numbers are not disclosed, the fact that WM has overtaken GW's second flagship line (in terms of sales through distributors) would suggest robust sales. It is not a complete picture of course, as it does not cover direct sales by GW. Your assertion that PP can not even match Forgeworld's sales numbers would also mean that Forgeworld also outstrips Fantasy in sales.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:43:21
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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cincydooley wrote: azreal13 wrote:@cinceydooley
Just don't feed nucflash.
He tried a similar tactic with me, I now have him on ignore, but as you're quoting him I can still see his bilge!
Good looking out. Thanks, brother!
No probs. he even boasted how many users he got to quit or ignore him or how often he got banned on other boards. We don't need his kind here, mods alerted.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:57:48
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Bloodtracker
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cincydooley wrote: Nucflash wrote:
Yes I undestand that you are the type of person who would buy a carpet if you think its nice. even if the company who made it used Child Labourers, because you think you have zero accountability. But guess what you do. Your enabling them to continue their bad business practises. And your actions do have effect. They effect me and thosuands of other people who would like a change for the better. So your actions are indirectly causing Abuse to our wallets, and gaming experinces. If you had some backbone you would undestand that. And you would be Joining the boycott of Games Workshop, You would work for a better tomorrow. But instead you are being selfish and arrogant.
I own Nike's and Adidas's and tons of other garments made in the 3rd world, so you're right. I am apparently a morally bankrupt individual that isn't concerned with accountibility. Oh wait, no, I'm not. I think it's hilarious that you use the Child Laborers example with GW, because that is one instance where you have to find that they're on the moral right side. They keep nearly all of their manufacturing in the UK as opposed to outsourcing it to China or Laos. Calling me selfish and arrogant in this respect is laughable. You're already said there are other, better rulesets out there. Go play those! Warmachine is a MUCH tighter ruleset than 40k or WHFB. Tons. Loads.
When you Buy a games workshop Product you are in fact suporting their policy that its okey to push overpriced plastic soldiers to little kidds with mommys credit card. Its okey to make Unbalanced rules. Its okey to make rules that are ment to suport more sales (and by this I mean bad rules to force people to buy new armies). The list goes on and on
Overpriced is completely subjective. No one is forcing mommy or daddy to buy them either. It's absolutely okay to make unbalanced rules. And as a consequence, it's absolutely okay for a company like Privateer to spring up and nab a good portion of the market that want a tighter ruleset. No one is forced to buy a thing. Not a thing.
It is people like you that are the main problem to be honest. Your actions as a group is keeping this going, If you took a stand with the rest of us.. You would bring back more people to your hobby (becuase then GW would have to change for the better) But the fact that you fail to understand this is beyond me...
Without getting too far into a pissing contest, I'd argue it's people like you, with your inarticulate, poorly reasoned arguments, and overwhelming sense of entitlement that are the problem.
Vote with your wallet. That's great. But please, don't go acting like some moral crusader here when the crux of your argument is that "I want to pay less." I still like playing 40k, I love the universe, and if they release a set of models I like, like the Deathwing box, I'll buy it.
Azreal you really should stop your passive agressive attitude... and if I'm not on another ignore list here goes hehe..
The Crux of the argument for me personaly is that " I LIKE THE LORE" but hate the game, because it is unblanced, poorly updated and for me personaly unfun to play at this point. I know that I have little effect in my Solo boycott of GW. So I activly try and recruit more people to my side. I do this in Real life and i do this on the internet. I put up the Facts, some people find them good to have. Others like yourself like to defend Games Workshop, or maybe you are defending your Hobby I dont know. But for some reason you chose to ignore Facts. From my point of view, I'm trying to be as clear as possible now "THE GAME REALY IS BORING AND UNFUN". Having this in mind it is hard for me to understand that you migh actually think its fun, I have to struggle with this. Because in my mind no sane person would enjoy playing 40k/ WHFB as it is today.... Then when you add-in all the other negative things about GW as a company, it actually starts to bother me outside the gaming experince aswell. For example I have heard employees tell little childrean to go home to mommy and daddy and tell them to buy them the BIG Spacemarine BOX for Christmas. When you put all these things together. It becomes very clear in my Mind that I have to Boycott GW. Because not only are they making a game I dont like to play, they are also using shady business tactics, that I personaly dont want to suport. And I feel moraly obligated to inform people "who might not be in the know" about them. If they just made an Overpriced and bad game I would shut the feth up and just vote with my Wallet. But there aggressive attitude towards little childrean in the stores really triggers me to be more Vocal about what I think. I dont like Magic the gathering either, putting random cards in a closed Booster Pack is really horrible, and I have boycotted that game from day one....
But the " I want to pay less" argument is not true for me personaly. I would pay what it cost if the Game Was fun for sure (and GW dident use shady tactics to push their products)... Now that it is not, Not so much..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 16:58:48
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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keezus wrote: cincydooley wrote:Do we have concrete sales figures from Privateer? I simply couldn't find them. If we do, please share. I'm more than willing to listen to numbers.
ICv2 is aggregating their data from distributors, so it should be a good indicator to overall sales by product line. Even if full numbers are not disclosed, the fact that WM has overtaken GW's second flagship line (in terms of sales through distributors) would suggest robust sales. It is not a complete picture of course, as it does not cover direct sales by GW. Your assertion that PP can not even match Forgeworld's sales numbers would also mean that Forgeworld also outstrips Fantasy in sales.
Do you think you could link this. I'm having trouble finding it.
Also, does GW put out a better formatted version of their intakes in their earnings reports? I looked at the most recent and didn't see any breakdowns by Business Line ( FW, Black Library, etc).
Then when you add-in all the other negative things about GW as a company, it actually starts to bother me outside the gaming experince aswell. For example I have heard employees tell little childrean to go home to mommy and daddy and tell them to buy them the BIG Spacemarine BOX for Christmas. When you put all these things together. It becomes very clear in my Mind that I have to Boycott GW. Because not only are they making a game I dont like to play, they are also using shady business tactics, that I personaly dont want to suport.
I assume you've never watched a kids television station during Christmas. That's pretty basic salesmanship and marketing, and if you don't like that kind of overt, direct statement, you must abhor all the subversive advertising elements to any ad in existence. You must be boycotting TONS of companies. What's that Smirnoff? If I drink your vodka I'll hang around with tons of attractive people and have a really great time? SWEET!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 17:03:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:03:56
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Bloodtracker
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azreal13 wrote: cincydooley wrote: azreal13 wrote:@cinceydooley
Just don't feed nucflash.
He tried a similar tactic with me, I now have him on ignore, but as you're quoting him I can still see his bilge!
Good looking out. Thanks, brother!
No probs. he even boasted how many users he got to quit or ignore him or how often he got banned on other boards. We don't need his kind here, mods alerted.
Azreal dident like what I had to say so he is now on a personal vendetta against me.. "we don't need his kind here" come on man.. I know I shut you down completely forcing your last passive agressive card, putting me on your Ignore list.. But take it like a man... But saying stuff like that you now sound like a "bigot"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:04:50
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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There's no numbers, but it states "This chart of the Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines (hobby channel) reflects sales in Summer 2012. The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." They run this quarterly it looks like.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:22:52
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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keezus wrote:There's no numbers, but it states "This chart of the Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines (hobby channel) reflects sales in Summer 2012. The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." They run this quarterly it looks like.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
Thanks for the link. I don't want to state the obvious, but this is clearly missing a huge portion of the market that is sold through self-distribution. I'm a bit shocked that Battlefront isn't on there, but then again, they don't go through distributors.
I don't know anything about the GW stores, but if we make the conservative assumption that each store must make at least enough to pay it's manager, then each GW store alone should be making between $35K-$50K a year, right? If we use that low figure and multiply it by the some 300 stores GW has worldwide, you're looking at anywhere from $1M to $1.5M in unaccounted for sales. And that doesn't even include their webstore sales.
I think that's a good look, but clearly it's in no way indicative of actual numbers or figures. I mean, I hate to say it, but it's really not any different than if I called a bunch of local stores and said, "hey, what are your best sellers."
Insightful, but missing huge pieces.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:22:56
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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It's not really a feat to surpass WHFB. I'd be amazed if it had a quarter of the players in 40k.
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Read my story at:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:39:31
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby. The whole warhammer scene was much more fun and laid back before its popularity exploded with the internet anyway. Now its nothing but WAAC tournament gamers everytime I go into the shop to play. No one wants to play the game for the game's sake anymore, they just want to min/max the latest hot off the press army.
I don't think that GW products are that expensive for the value you get anyway, and I'm not talking about value as in the amount of product that you get on the sprue. I'm talking about the value of hours of game time with your friends, exploring one of the greatest sci-fi universes out there.
Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:42:33
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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The "moral responsibility" gak was laugh out loud funny.
For the record, you don't have a moral responsibility to do jack gak, cincydooley was being polite.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:48:29
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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cincydooley wrote:Thanks for the link. I don't want to state the obvious, but this is clearly missing a huge portion of the market that is sold through self-distribution. I'm a bit shocked that Battlefront isn't on there, but then again, they don't go through distributors.
Holy crap Batman. I already conceeded this in my earlier post and noted that it only implies a trend.
-edit- Just conjecture based on the oft used "get it at discount" argument seen in this thread: While the portion of the market that is supplied through self-distribution is considerable, I suspect that this percentage is decreasing year-over-year as more customers move towards the discounts that suppliers can offer. There is little incentive to purchase from their brick and mortar stores over the webstore as GW stores don't stock their whole range. If going on line, there is little incentive to buy direct from GW at full price when a discount can be had with the change of a URL.
YMMV, but the last 3 things I bought directly from GW were tied into GW promotions - one for the 6th ED Gamers Ed pack, one for a GW birthday promotional item and one to get a promotional marine sgt.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/22 17:59:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:49:59
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
WA
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cincydooley wrote: keezus wrote:There's no numbers, but it states "This chart of the Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines (hobby channel) reflects sales in Summer 2012. The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." They run this quarterly it looks like.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
Thanks for the link. I don't want to state the obvious, but this is clearly missing a huge portion of the market that is sold through self-distribution. I'm a bit shocked that Battlefront isn't on there, but then again, they don't go through distributors.
Do we know for sure if they didn't take that in to account? From the link:
The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
Surely that could mean total product moved through their production facilities? Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what would people estimate Privateer's revenue at? High hundred-thousands? Millions? 10's of millions?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 17:56:36
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!! - d-usa |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/22 17:58:58
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Samurai_Eduh wrote:No one wants to play the game for the game's sake anymore, they just want to min/max the latest hot off the press army.
You do realize it's awful design choices and poor rules construction far more than it is "Kids/Whiners" that causes that, right? The fact that silly concepts like " WAAC" even exist are screaming evidence of this. I do love the 40k IP, but the game is just a borderline unplayable mess. The overwhelming majority of play & "Casual vs Competitive" issues that show up could be curbed immensely by rules that were designed halfway decently.
Seriously, point the finger where it belongs at the poor design choices make that an issue. Wanting to win is natural in game that has and is geared entirely twoards win/lose states. It's not the player's fault that the means to do so in 40k is wholly degenerate. No amount of earning-way-more-money than all those little "Whiners and Kids" that are so beneath you is going to change that, or make the game healthier.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 17:59:21
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