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2013/02/25 21:07:45
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
My gaming habits have steadily moved into independently organized play over the last several years. It probably has something to do with buying a home, having kids, and increasing work responsibilities, i.e. life.
I vastly prefer to plan out which game or games I will be playing ahead of time, and the type of people I typically play with nowadays have pretty similar opinions. As a result we usually run a lot of campaigns. The campaign goes as long as interest holds out. It has its life cycle, and we have 2 or 3 other campaigns on deck ready to rock. These fold into the league cycle of the FLGS to create a pretty healthy rotation of games and manageable expectations.
I think that that is really representative of a majority of gamers. While we often don't decide on a specific game/army/scenario that we will be playing until a few days ahead of time - there exists a standing appointment for a game night that has been in place for several years now. It is easier for those who need to make such arrangements to arrange for a babysitter or other issues related to children, and to ensure that they are not doing any OT for work type issues.
The randomness of just showing up at a store and hoping to get a game in (either sneaking into the rotation for a spot on the tables or working out what you may be doing with someone who you have only met once or twice before) is more difficult to tolerate when you have wife, kids, car payments, possible merger meetings and all the other issues that go into life after college. Also few issues relating to the guy with the gorilla mitts pawing at a few hundred/thousand dollars worth of miniatures.
Even if the size of GW's piece of the pie isn't changing, if the size of the pie is increasing, i.e. the market is expanding, GW would be losing market share, right?
That would be conventional logic, now wouldn't it.
Of course, anything which is pointed at is dismissed as not having all the information that the wizards from Nottingham have access too (apparently they are great managers and are incapable of the miscalculations that have fallen on any number of other companies who have followed comparable paths as GW). At best, GW is stagnant. Even in their regional brakedowns where you have highlights like Australia being up roughly 50% since 2008 - when looked at in light of the rest of the economy...that isn't very impressive. After all, the Australian dollar is also up roughly 50% on the exchange rate with the pound that would account for the changes year over year. That also ignores any price hikes that had happened in the last 5 years for them...of which I understand there have been a few.
2013/02/26 06:41:53
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Riquende wrote: It's funny, because that's exactly how GW corporate sees it too!
How can you claim 'no competition'? If I walk into a store now, I not only see GW kits, but Mantic's or Warlord's box sets. I see racks of blisters for Warmachine, or Infinity. All of these products are competing for my money, and to be honest, GW isn't trying very hard.
The whole "well there are no companies anywhere near them in terms of revenue, so therefore no competition" is a complete sham.
To be fair, if your store doesn't stock other games, you're not going to be aware of them, are you? One of my stores used to stock GW and only GW for wargaming, so it was a bit difficult to get into anything else. And I was about 12 at the time so I didn't join any forums, and if I saw a forum post I'd go straight into looking for what I wanted.
My sentiments exactly
6000pts
3000pts
1500pts
1000pts
2013/02/26 08:27:08
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Riquende wrote: It's funny, because that's exactly how GW corporate sees it too!
How can you claim 'no competition'? If I walk into a store now, I not only see GW kits, but Mantic's or Warlord's box sets. I see racks of blisters for Warmachine, or Infinity. All of these products are competing for my money, and to be honest, GW isn't trying very hard.
The whole "well there are no companies anywhere near them in terms of revenue, so therefore no competition" is a complete sham.
To be fair, if your store doesn't stock other games, you're not going to be aware of them, are you? One of my stores used to stock GW and only GW for wargaming, so it was a bit difficult to get into anything else. And I was about 12 at the time so I didn't join any forums, and if I saw a forum post I'd go straight into looking for what I wanted.
My sentiments exactly
He's not wrong, but he does miss the point. An increasing number of stores do now carry these ranges, and that's where the competition comes from.
When I was 12 I only knew about GW, as we didn't have the internet around at the time and the only convenient store was a GW. So for me, and a lot of other people, there was no competition (even if such games existed). When I was 18, the internet was still in its infancy and the only local shop that carried any wargaming stuff ONLY stocked GW, so again, no real competition. Now, the gaming stores have a diverse range of products that seem to be sticking around (rather than the situation of 10 years ago when most companies had a shelf life of two years. ish). And obviously the internet has become an easy to use tool for discovering new games.
I will grant you that if your local store has nothing but GW, and you only know other only-GW players, and you're not motivated enough to actively search for other games online then you would still see GW as having no competition.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
2013/02/26 22:35:39
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
when i started 40k that was all there was really. If anything they had no competition back then but still chose not to capitalize on that by over charging. I have noticed some warmachine stuff in my local shop, but to be honest 40k is the universe i like, and love reading the novels etc so I would still rather pay a little more to play something that has in my view a richer heritage. however there is definitely a limit, and i worry that with all the potential new players being driven off by rampant price gouging the scene will dry up. and that'd be dumb.
6000pts
3000pts
1500pts
1000pts
2013/02/26 22:33:27
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Just glue some skulls on it and call it Grimdark,
That's the Games Workshop method these days,
An over valued hunk of Finecraft Gee Dub junk,
You're better off just buying from eBay....
(With apologies to Just Glue Some Gears On It And Call It Steampunk.)
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/26 22:45:33
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2013/02/26 23:45:25
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/26 23:50:34
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
20192019/01/26 23:54:49
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
"This is a limited edition Warhammer: Daemons of Chaos army book. It comes with a special matt dust-jacket featuring a gloss Nurgle illustration. Underneath, the hardcover finish is textured and with subtle artwork and lettering. It comes with a black ribbon bookmark, black edging and a certificate. "
Yeah. Pretty much... Deffinitely worth the £25 extra. /SARCASMOVERLOAD
Flinty wrote: You could always just strap SPACE MARINES to the arms and SPACE MARINE the SPACE MARINES!!1!1111
2013/02/26 23:56:57
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
and a certificate.
Well there you go! Definitely worth it with that!
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2013/02/26 23:58:07
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
If I was making a limited edition book, I'd at least make a mini that was only available with it. It doesn't even have to have a unique profile, it can just be an alternate sculpt of one of the profiles in the book. Collectors love that sort of stuff and would lap it up.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
2013/02/27 00:22:14
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
From this day forward I vow never to buy anything from GW, other than WD for a bit of light reading.
New army book/codex £30....
Limited edition: £55.
The difference: A TINY picture on the front that's the same for both army book and codex.
I can't put into words how pathetic this company has become.
/endrant.
GW aren't exactly the only company to charge a premium for a "collector's edition" that's almost the exact same as the normal edition.
I actually really like the new codexes - the full colour artwork, the layout etc. I just wish they'd have a "lite" version for people who just want the rules. I guess that's not economical, but I for one would still buy the normal edition.
Naaa na na na-na-na-naaa.
Na-na-na-naaaaa.
Hey Jude.
2013/02/27 00:27:17
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Riquende wrote: If I was making a limited edition book, I'd at least make a mini that was only available with it. It doesn't even have to have a unique profile, it can just be an alternate sculpt of one of the profiles in the book. Collectors love that sort of stuff and would lap it up.
I think that is a fantastic idea. Perhaps even with a special insert just for that one mini. It couldn't be a regular HQ character like Marneus or Vect. It would have to be a mid-power one. Of course, a lot of people would then complain that they can't field that mini which they acquired off of eBay without the rules necessitating GW to put together a new book covering just those special characters... Never mind; I don't think the interwebz would go for this.
Then again, it could just be a different sculpt of an existing model.. That might be the ticket. Buy the Limited Edition Nurgle Chaos Daemons codex and get a special edition numbered herald of Nurgle with it for only $150US or $300AUD.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/02/27 00:30:17
------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
2013/02/27 00:36:27
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Fafnir wrote: In all fairness, it's not like you have to buy the limited edition version in the first place.
Well that's just crazy talk. You have to. And you have to complain when you don't like the price. This is the law of the interwebz.
If you don't like it, you don't have to read it
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2013/02/27 02:50:45
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
From this day forward I vow never to buy anything from GW, other than WD for a bit of light reading.
New army book/codex £30....
Limited edition: £55.
The difference: A TINY picture on the front that's the same for both army book and codex.
I can't put into words how pathetic this company has become.
/endrant.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
They're actually $90 USD in the GW US webstore.
The US: The New Australia (OK, not quite).
2013/02/27 03:14:39
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
They're actually $90 USD in the GW US webstore.
The US: The New Australia (OK, not quite).
I just looked at the Australian store... ... $150... .
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The standard edition is $83. Holy on a cracker. That's way too much for the rules of 1 army in a game that has 15 different armies, especially with the quality (or lack there of) of GW rules these days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 03:14:56
2013/02/27 04:23:44
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Never really understood that position, it is like people know no one who is willing to play a new game with them. From when I was a kid, through my time in the service, as a computer contractor and now in my somewhat more settled older age...I have never had a problem getting people to try new games and even starting new armies if we find we like those rule sets. Buy a copy of the rules, read through them. If they seem like they would be fun - hand them off to a gamer friend and see if they want to play. Set aside an afternoon or night to play a quick short game or two using miniatures you already have. Very little that might be lost. If you like them - you can look at getting the specific miniatures (if they exist) or putting together purpose built armies.
How nice for you.
Personally, I know three people who play tabletop games. My brother and two friends.
My brother is open minded sometimes. He got into Warhammer Fantasy before me, and dragged me into it. I got into Infinity before him, and I dragged him into it. I've got no chance at all of getting hime to try FoW, Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc. He's got 3 kids and, you know, life expenses. His wife nearly killed him when I dragged him into a massively low cost game like Infinity.
One of my friends is a 40k nut. He's more into it for the fluff than the game. He has 3 kids as well and even more living expenses. Getting into a new game for him is quite an investment. Not only that, he doesn't even get much time to do it. He likes playing, but doesn't get the time to paint. I'm trying to get him into Infinity - small outlay, not many models. But it's not 40k, so it's hard.
My other friend bases his purchases on model aesthetics. He doesn't like the aesthetics of much that's out there. I had to twist his army to try Infinity, and that only worked because he likes anime. He also likes GW stuff and has multiple 40k armies, but I'm trying to get him into Warhammer Fantasy. He's resisting, because he doesn't get to play much as it is.
So yeah. If I wanted to try Warmachine, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, or any other game out there? I'd be playing against myself. I was incredibly lucky to have my brother get into Fantasy and two of them get into Infinity, and Infinity only gained tracktion due to the tiny upfront cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 04:24:47
2013/02/27 04:26:04
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
I am convinced that an Australian must have given Kirby a wedgey when he was a kid. Had they not noticed that the AUD is actually worth more than the USD...for the past few years?
Granted, those prices do go a long way in making the Southern hemisphere look profitable.
2013/02/27 04:56:34
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Actually they have noticed that the AUD is up above the USD, but instead of lowering the AU prices they are raising the US ones. The new plastic characters are $25 in both areas, the difference is our previous plastic characters where $22 while the US ones were $14.75.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/02/27 05:27:06
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
The Canadian dollar has pretty much been on par for the last 6 years, they dropped prices once then cranked them back to 20% of the american price and said "we use historical exchange rates" because they got burned for all of 3 months when it lowered to 89 cents. The factory is in memphis yet we pay the exchange to the british pound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 05:29:03
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2013/02/27 05:27:52
Subject: Re:Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
As an Australian who has collected GW products for around 14 years now (I'm 28 years old now), I can comfortably say that GW have priced me out of the hobby, but only in their Australian stores. Don't get me wrong, I still buy their products, just not through them. I imagine this is the case with most other Aussie gamers, but I refuse to pay the massive amounts the Australian GW bricks and mortar stores charge. Even Australian 3rd party and retail online stores are at least 15% cheaper than retail here.
In most cases I purchase through US sellers on eBay or overseas stores, which is understandably a much cheaper alternative, but it is frustrating. If GW Australia simply charged us the same amount as our US counterparts I would happily walk into one of their stores, sit through the hard-sell and purchase like a mother . Hell I'd even probably buy that death from the skies and a couple of fliers... actually I know I would.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 05:30:46
2013/02/27 05:33:44
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
The page edges are shiny and it also comes with a ribbon as a book mark, clearly worth double the price If you ever see anyone with one of these books offer them a "magic rock" for the low low price of $1000
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2013/02/27 05:51:55
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
2013/02/27 05:54:25
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
Wow, thanks for reminding me! Come to think of it. I got Diablo 3 and Starcarft 2 special edition for $99CAD each. Comes with soundtracks/making of game/fancy USB key/orginal edition of game/artbook/coolector case. with GW I have to pay $110CAD for a collectors item that has a sleeve cover and a black ribbon.
I'm being honest, love the game, love the fluff and models. But I just can't support GW stores at paying retail if they charge $110CAD for a collector book over $60CAD normal version and all they add is a sleeve cover and a ribbon
2013/02/27 05:56:56
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Orktavius wrote: Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
Ooh, this one's still got that new knight smell!
Seriously though, you're new here, but posting like this may well end up with a smack from the banhammer. Attack people's arguments, respect people and their right to an opinion.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
BryllCream wrote: I just wish they'd have a "lite" version for people who just want the rules.
That's probably most people. The Eavy metal pages are available online. Most of the fluff is either stuff you've read before, or available on sites like Lexicanium. All people really need are the rules, so they can continue to use their army that they already paid for.
Codex books used to serve a purpose. They mostly contained stuff that wasn't developed when the game came out. But now they seem to be an integral part in what is essentially a hidden cost scam.
Most of the armies are fleshed out now. Half the stuff in the Codex books should be in main book; 60% of the stuff in the main book is crap no one cares about anyway. If the main book was one big tomb like RT and 2nd ed (well... 1 divided into 3) then I would happily pay £45 for it, maybe even £100. They could always bring out supplements as they developed new stuff, rather than rehashing all the old copypasta from previous books.
That might also mean that other armies like Sisters don't have to wait 10 years behind a string of Space Marine codex books, before they get any new releases.
2013/02/27 06:15:42
Subject: Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?
Sean_OBrien wrote:I am convinced that an Australian must have given Kirby a wedgey when he was a kid. Had they not noticed that the AUD is actually worth more than the USD...for the past few years?
Yeah, I think a dingo must have ate his baby or something.
Granted, those prices do go a long way in making the Southern hemisphere look profitable.
Not a chance when no one is buying it, lol. GW stores in Oz used to be a hive of activity back in the days when I bought my 2nd and 3rd edition codices for a fraction of the price, by comparison they're a ghost town now.
Orktavius wrote:Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
Seriously? You came in to a 61 page long thread about GW pricing and expected something other than complaining... and then proceed to complain about complainers? Nice job there, mate
Personally I see the complaints about the limited edition being overpriced as genuine. Sure, you don't need to buy it... just like you don't need to play the game in the first place, but if you are a player of that particular army you might WANT the collectors edition and are disappointed with the price and quality of the collectors edition.
Perhaps you should take your whining at whiners elsewhere and just stop reading threads that are clearly and obviously going to be full of complaints
6000pts
3000pts
1500pts
1000pts
... $150... 
on a cracker. That's way too much for the rules of 1 army in a game that has 15 different armies, especially with the quality (or lack there of) of 
If you ever see anyone with one of these books offer them a "magic rock" for the low low price of $1000
