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 BryllCream wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

What? Going nonsense is not a good way to expose your points.
From that reply I can only assume you either have not read my post and are talking about some random stuff or that you are just arguing about something for the sake of arguing... It's hard for me to follow your nonsense so I will just leave at that.
People define themselves? WTH!?

I'm giving up on you. You clearly have a very "specific" view of the world. I wish you luck in life, I think you'll need it.

Your assuming that you have a broader view on life than myself and In the same thread you refuse to use common sense so congrats sir for being totally void of any logic.

Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

I think its a combination of the two.

1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.

4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.

To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

Its probably because of the 4 different factions, if it was a general LE daemon dex it would have sold out 20minute after pre order launch. Mostly because the webstore probably is only alloted 10 copies but whatever buy buy buy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

I think its a combination of the two.

1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.

4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.

To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.

Both were runs of 1000, says so on the certificate. It would be foolish to do 1000 of each faction though, they will be holding on to those for awhile.

Pardon me i was going on dimly remembered info from a friend. Thank you for the correction.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

I think its a combination of the two.

1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.

4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.

To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.

Both were runs of 1000, says so on the certificate. It would be foolish to do 1000 of each faction though, they will be holding on to those for awhile.

No doubt they printed 1000 of each faction. They're actually advertising them on the site's frontpage now.

I saw that, I guess it means they arent moving as fast as they'd like. I doubt we'll see them all sell out this time, nurgle probably, but the rest probably wont.

My take on it is that the models are at a point where they are "becoming expensive", I don't buy anything from gw store ever.

More worryingly, I haven't felt like buying any "new" models that gw have released since the plastic demon prince came out. I have purchased fw but I haven't purchased any new release gw models.

I think the dark eldar and necrons were really good but the chaos was lacklustre and dark angels average. Demons haven't set me on fire either.

I don't know what's changed at gw but the models seem to be getting worse........

Just my 2p

I thought this thread was getting a bit passionate about raining all over gw's parade, but holy crap i just read that thing about them trying to retrospectively copyright the term space marine (i only returned to the scene recently, probably old hat to you all), to me that seems even worse. That's like me trying to copyright this thread. at page 64. as a noob. and then releasing this thread as my own, making heaps of money from it, then going back into the thread and saying everyone has to to stop talking because it's my topic.

Actually Pax part of the problem is that the Space marine thing was just a few weeks ago, so not really all that 'old'. The thing where the marketing director (or something along those lines) for North America called all us gamer smelly nerds (or something like that, I got up too early to brain today) was a few of weeks before that. Then there was the whole cutting the independent stores out and not letting them sell (or more accurately stock, they are free to sell it if they buy it at the retail price) the fliers compendium. Oh, and there was the Warriors of chaos pricing at the start of the month.

GW are seemingly getting going downhill at a much faster rate these days.

 Jasper wrote:
Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)

As I noted earlier, with fantasy (specifically PP) and Sci-Fi yes. But the entire Fantasy and Sci-Fi pricing (not just GW) is bonkers when compared to historicals. Which are similar or better in quality than GW. In fact, in historicals, Perry Miniatures is one of the biggest 28mm suppliers of plastic and metal kits and they are the same Perry's that sculpt many of the GW pieces as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.

Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.

Actually, most of what has been limited in the last six months is STILL available. Even the psychic cards. I remember when this stuff used to sell out before release. Now it is still available six months later.

I think it is more than just reaching the limit (the psychic cards are really not that bad in price), I think it is indicative of how many customers are actually being driven off by both the pricing and the increased quality of competitive systems out there.

I have a sinking suspicion that GW numbers are not going to be all that great later this year. Might explain why they are suddenly pumping codexes/army books and model out like it is going out of style. They really haven't got a clue what the problem is.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Actually Pax part of the problem is that the Space marine thing was just a few weeks ago, so not really all that 'old'. The thing where the marketing director (or something along those lines) for North America called all us gamer smelly nerds (or something like that, I got up too early to brain today) was a few of weeks before that. Then there was the whole cutting the independent stores out and not letting them sell (or more accurately stock, they are free to sell it if they buy it at the retail price) the fliers compendium. Oh, and there was the Warriors of chaos pricing at the start of the month.

GW are seemingly getting going downhill at a much faster rate these days.

Anytime GW etchics come into quesiton my evidence is usually pretty simple, one word "Embargo". Thats it, the rest falls into place.

 cincydooley wrote:
I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.

I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....

Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?

I used to think it was typical internet hyperbole until I went into GW Putney for some paint one day and was the oldest person in there by about 15-20 years (33). First time walking into a GW for a couple of years, but this one had opened up not far from home so I walked over on Sunday afternoon.

Packed full of kids with Dad happily smiling by as they played the games.

Same really. I don't go to GW much but last year I popped into the MK store for some paint and it must have had about 30 kids of high school age all crowded around the tables. I can't say I looked thoroughly but I didn't notice anyone signifcantly older.

The thing that made me pause was not the cost of the figures, it was the cost of the "enhanced" ebooks from Black Library. an extra £3 for 3 badly drawn pictures .

"The Flight of the Eisenstein is presented in a premium eBook format and includes exclusive internal illustrations by artist Karl Richardson."

When i read this i was thinking there would be much more extra content

Only time I really see kids in the local GW is during school holidays.

Now I can honestly say that I can't stand kids, but even so, I can't see the problem with GW having lots of kids in the store. Because lets be truthful, wargames are toys. Kids buy toys and play games. So a GW store is an obvious draw, and yes, it is about bringing in new customers. Let them spend their money on GW. And when they're older they discover other games and expand what they play.

GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.

 Ugavine wrote:
Only time I really see kids in the local GW is during school holidays.

Now I can honestly say that I can't stand kids, but even so, I can't see the problem with GW having lots of kids in the store. Because lets be truthful, wargames are toys. Kids buy toys and play games. So a GW store is an obvious draw, and yes, it is about bringing in new customers. Let them spend their money on GW. And when they're older they discover other games and expand what they play.

GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.

Noo, kids touch my toys and their parents can afford more space men than me, so they should not be allowed to play GW games. Only I should.

 Ugavine wrote:

GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.

I don't think anybody is saying otherwise? Merely pointing out that earlier in the thread people seemed surprised with the idea of kids being in GW stores at all. I don't doubt it varies by area and times of day/week/year, but it does happen.

It didn;t surprise me, but it was the first time I've seen it as just kids, rather than teens/twenties.

To be fair though, I spotted a 19/20 yr old with a GW case strolling up Putney high street towards the shop the other day.

I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.

Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.

I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.

Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.

 BryllCream wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.

Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.

I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.

Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.

I have to say I am in agreement with this.

If you look at the entire Marketing method now from the Army Books all the way to White Dwarf, GW is attempting to market in a niche that appeals to the older teenager and above. The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.

As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.

As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.

GW suffers from being a specialist hobby now placed in most locations in the UK as a High Street seller. The rent/tax on the properties alone has forced many to be closed Monday/Tuesday in order to cut in staffing. Our local store has a small footprint but we well know the rental prices for the High Street shops.

Unless GW goes to a model similar to the other model companies out there of being a mail order company (which would destroy their market share, my opinion is that they will be forced to either increase the prices even further over the next 2 years or face administration) The day of the High Street is long at an end.

Jedziah wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.

Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.

I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.

Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.

I have to say I am in agreement with this.

If you look at the entire Marketing method now from the Army Books all the way to White Dwarf, GW is attempting to market in a niche that appeals to the older teenager and above. The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.

As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.

As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.

GW suffers from being a specialist hobby now placed in most locations in the UK as a High Street seller. The rent/tax on the properties alone has forced many to be closed Monday/Tuesday in order to cut in staffing. Our local store has a small footprint but we well know the rental prices for the High Street shops.

Unless GW goes to a model similar to the other model companies out there of being a mail order company (which would destroy their market share, my opinion is that they will be forced to either increase the prices even further over the next 2 years or face administration) The day of the High Street is long at an end.

No, stores are closed two days a week because you have to let your staff have time off, and the reason there's only one member of staff is because that's what GW think will work. The reality is there whole approach to B+M retail is flawed for their product type. It's nothing to do with rent. I'd expect that most shops, given their size and location, are probably paying between 6-10k p.a in rent, which is very much towards the lower end.

I can't believe that their focus is on vets, when I am probably a typical vet, yet I find their recent releases lacklustre and their practices varying from baffling to downright angering. Plus, in my experience, many vets have moved on to other systems, for a variety of reasons, some retain an interest in GW games, some do not. YMMV of course.

Kirby has stated that the company is in the business of selling toys to kids. I absolutely agree that it is a hobby that appeals to teenagers and above and that GW *SHOULD* be focusing on them and the vets but they seem to think that getting a kid a stater set* a battleforce and a paint set is enough. They focus on high turnover, assuming that veterans already have an army and are done. It is the same reason we are getting questionable new models instead of having 10+ year old sculpts redone. GW assumes everyone has all the old ones and wont buy them, if they give us completely new things though the vets might just pick them up while the kids will buy anything with a GW label on it.
The average person buying from GW probably does already have at least 1 army but GW don't see that.


* Starter sets are from a loss, maybe compared to trying to sell people the individual items but they are what, 4 frames? That's little more than a tac squad. The cost of the mold is the big issue, the plastic costs them cents and snap fit molds are much cheaper than multi part kits with 80 bits in them.

It is getting REALLY hard to buy new codexes, i used to buy them all, but at $50 per book, it is just too much now...

 BryllCream wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.

Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.

I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing.

GW caters to veterans by closing battle bunkers, removing gaming opportunities from their 1-man stores, cutting tournament support and stating that they consider themself a miniature company and thus do not have to release balanced rules? Come on.

Buy it with a few friends and copy the information you need to an excel file or PDF, it'll take a few hours to get all the rules and stat lines done. Its not pirating if you each put in some cash. Anyone GW sell bot says anything tell him you didnt want to open your LE dex as it will decrease its value. You wont have the fluff on hand, but from what Ive read from the chaos and dark angel books, you're not missing much.

I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.

I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.

+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.

Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.

The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.

I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.

+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.

Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.

The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.

Actually it's excellent business practice. Doing it in such am obvious and clumsy fashion so your consumer is aware of it is what's terrible!

 BryllCream wrote:

The one or two times I see a kid in GW (say, under 18) they buy something little if they buy something at all. Most of the regulars are in their 20s with full-time jobs.

 BryllCream wrote:

Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games..

So... which is it?

Or are you in fact just arguing for the sake of it?