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I was dismayed to read in the Eldar FAQ that Pheonix lord powers can only affect their aspects. I find that a curious ruling considering the description for Shadowstrike says that the Autarch specifically can not benefit from the rule because 'his command is needed elsewhere'. What would be the point of saying that unless it were possible to confer the ability to non aspect units such as avengers, Farseers with warlocks, guardians and harlequins. If the power can only ever be imparted to S.Scorpions then what is the point of the clarification?

So Karandras can not improve the cover save of a unit he joins though the Stealth USR he has? No infiltrating a joined squad of guardians?.

Autarchs can benefit from other Exarch related powers...just not Shadowstrike. As for the Phoenix Lords non-interaction while outside Aspect... simply based on lore ??? that would be my guess.

Exarch powers can only affect the Aspect Warriors and Autarchs. However, Phoenix Lords can join any non-aspect warrior unit.

Regarding, Karandras' Stealth, it is debatable. Some claim only Striking Scorpions benefit, others (myself included) claim that while only Karandras has it, due to the wording of Stealth the whole unit benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exarch powers can only affect the Aspect Warriors and Autarchs. However, Phoenix Lords can join any non-aspect warrior unit.

Regarding, Karandras' Stealth, it is debatable. Some claim only Striking Scorpions benefit, others (myself included) claim that while only Karandras has it, due to the wording of Stealth the whole unit benefits.

 Happyjew wrote:
Exarch powers can only affect the Aspect Warriors and Autarchs. However, Phoenix Lords can join any non-aspect warrior unit.

Regarding, Karandras' Stealth, it is debatable. Some claim only Striking Scorpions benefit, others (myself included) claim that while only Karandras has it, due to the wording of Stealth the whole unit benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exarch powers can only affect the Aspect Warriors and Autarchs. However, Phoenix Lords can join any non-aspect warrior unit.

Regarding, Karandras' Stealth, it is debatable. Some claim only Striking Scorpions benefit, others (myself included) claim that while only Karandras has it, due to the wording of Stealth the whole unit benefits.

Thanks for the response. The very last entry in the errata (here: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf) states: "Q: Pheonix Lords are not exarchs, But independent characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike, Skyleap) affect units other than Aspect Warriors?"

"A: Their powers only affect units of Aspect Warriors"

I think it's kinda lame and contradicts the part of the entry for Shadowstrike which singles the Autarch alone out as being a non aspect model that can not gain the ability by being a member of the squad that has a model with the rule.

I was just hoping that I was somehow reading it wrong. It seems they changed something in the errata that was clearly intended in both the codex and brb. In the codex it says just non scorpion aspects and autarchs can't use it and the brb says that if one member of the squad has stealth OR infiltrate that the ability is imparted to others in the squad, even if they wouldn't possess the ability otherwise.

It's like they went out of their way to nerf Pheonix Lords. Lol, they're good but not that good for their points. Why mess with them to that degree? *shrug*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I was looking forward to fielding a 20 strong squad of guardians with a Conceal Warlock, park them on an objective and fortune them for rerollable 4+ covers aves. With a built in charge deterrent! 3+ if they gtg.

Oh well. Eldar are way overpowered as it is without the use of such beardy tactics. /sarcasm

Btw, does conceal work while in close combat?

Kind of. Conceal grants a cover save. Close combat attacks ignore cover. They would still get it from shooting.

If you really want a unit that is hard to budge:
Eldrad (or Fortuneseer)
Karandras
10-man Wraithguard unit led by a Spiritseer with Conceal.

Majority T 6, re-rollable saves and is a Troop choice. Only problem is it is a major point-sink.

Nah, Conceal imparts a cover save, so not applicable in cc sadly.

Bah ninja'd.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kind of. Conceal grants a cover save. Close combat attacks ignore cover. They would still get it from shooting.

If you really want a unit that is hard to budge:
Eldrad (or Fortuneseer)
Karandras
10-man Wraithguard unit led by a Spiritseer with Conceal.

Majority T 6, re-rollable saves and is a Troop choice. Only problem is it is a major point-sink.

Why add Karandras if his abilities can not extend to any but Striking Scorpions?

Because although arguable, most people agree that due to Stealth's wording, the while unit benefits from Stealth. So Conceal grants a cover save, Stealth improves it, majority T 6, and getting to re-roll saves due to Fortune.

I have run karandras with a farseer and harlies quite affectively. I like the idea of wraithguard with karandras and Eldrad - pretty expensive but man what a wallop

 Happyjew wrote:
Because although arguable, most people agree that due to Stealth's wording, the while unit benefits from Stealth. So Conceal grants a cover save, Stealth improves it, majority T 6, and getting to re-roll saves due to Fortune.

I agree that Stealth should still apply. The FAQ clarified that Pheonix Lords can not impart exarch powers to non S.Scorpions but stealth is not listed under exarch powers, only in Karandras' profile.

So my plan of giving a squad of gaurdians a conceal warlock and improving that cover save to 4+ via Karandras still works. I just can't infiltrate them. Expensive but i think a squad of 20 gaurdians could have even more destructive potential and survivability then a 10 man squad of WraithGaurd with Karandras and Farseer.

Wraithgaurd- T6, fearless, 3+ save, rerollable 4++, 10 wraithcannon shots at BS4 (390 points for 10 WG and conceallock)

Gaurdians- T3, squad uses Karandras' Ld10, rerollable 4++, 40 str 4 ap5 shots at BS3 and 4 str 6 shots from attached scatter laser. (215pts for gaurdians, SL and concealock)

I guess it depends on what you're fighting. That 175 pt cost savings offsets the lack of fearlessness to me. In close combat the gaurdians go back to sucking though and the WG can at least survive a while. That 175 can buy 10 scorpions or banshees to offset the CC crappiness and in tandem with Karandras can turn the tides for the gaurdians if they find themselves mired in CC.

Karandras is Fearless as well, so the Guardians would be Fearless. In combat the Guardians aren't really much worse than the Wraithguard either, neither unit is going to fight their way out of much but the Guardians at least have twice the attacks.

You could also argue that that FAQ ruling has very little effect with the way things work in 6th. Move Through Cover, Stealth and Infiltrate are all 'a unit that contains at least one model with this rule'. Because of this the powers work on Karandras and then they are conveyed to the unit through him. Otherwise you have a contradiction, where Karandras has his powers effecting himself but not his unit, even though the rules state that just him having the power conveys in to the unit.

Powerguy wrote:
Karandras is Fearless as well, so the Guardians would be Fearless. In combat the Guardians aren't really much worse than the Wraithguard either, neither unit is going to fight their way out of much but the Guardians at least have twice the attacks.

You could also argue that that FAQ ruling has very little effect with the way things work in 6th. Move Through Cover, Stealth and Infiltrate are all 'a unit that contains at least one model with this rule'. Because of this the powers work on Karandras and then they are conveyed to the unit through him. Otherwise you have a contradiction, where Karandras has his powers effecting himself but not his unit, even though the rules state that just him having the power conveys in to the unit.

In the Pheonix Lord entry on page 54 of the codex it states that the fearlessness is only conferred to squadmates of their own aspect.

The FAQ was last updated in June of 2012. If the question about Pheonix Lord powers no longer applied in 6th would it still be there? Hey, I'd love to deep strike things like guardians, harlies, DA and Farseers/ warlock squads but the FAQ leaves little room for interpretation. The Stealth for Karandras seems to be the lone exception to this rule as there are no other Pheonix Lords with rules listed in their personal profile that are transferable to squad mates while not being an exarch power.

In 4th ed, Stealth and Fearless were unit-based, so you only got the benefits if the whole unit had the rule. In 5th ed, Stealth only required a single model for the whole unit to benefit. In 6th, only one model needs Fearless to benefit. The problem is the codex is still using 4th edition rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
In 4th ed, Stealth and Fearless were unit-based, so you only got the benefits if the whole unit had the rule. In 5th ed, Stealth only required a single model for the whole unit to benefit. In 6th, only one model needs Fearless to benefit. The problem is the codex is still using 4th edition rules.

Wow, you are right. Karandras would therefore indeed make the squad fearless. Makes the stealthy concealed fortuned gaurdian mega squad even better. Gonna have to try this next game.

That extra point about giving the squad Fearless is a great example of why I think their powers still effectively function as normal. Its purely related to the age of the codex, in 6th a single Fearless character makes his entire squad Fearless, it doesn't matter if 'he conveys it to the unit' or not.

Essentially:
a) Karandras has Fearless
b) unit 'x' is not Fearless and the Disciples rule means that Karandras does NOT give them the Fearless special rule
c) however the wording of the Fearless special rule means that since Karandras IS Fearless the rest of the unit benefits from it (i.e they auto pass pin, morale and regroup) without actually having the special rule themselves (through Karandras 'making them Fearless')

That one is pretty black and white, since there is no FAQ to confuse things, however I think the same applies for his other powers.

a) Karandras has Move through Cover (and Stealth and Infiltrate)
b) unit 'x' does not have Move through Cover and the FAQ ruling means that Karandras does not give it to them, but at no point does he himself lose the ability
c) however since Move through Cover simply requires a single model in the unit having it, the fact that Karandras does not give them the ability doesn't matter, the power still effects him which is enough

Powerguy wrote:
That extra point about giving the squad Fearless is a great example of why I think their powers still effectively function as normal. Its purely related to the age of the codex, in 6th a single Fearless character makes his entire squad Fearless, it doesn't matter if 'he conveys it to the unit' or not.

Essentially:
a) Karandras has Fearless
b) unit 'x' is not Fearless and the Disciples rule means that Karandras does NOT give them the Fearless special rule
c) however the wording of the Fearless special rule means that since Karandras IS Fearless the rest of the unit benefits from it (i.e they auto pass pin, morale and regroup) without actually having the special rule themselves (through Karandras 'making them Fearless')

That one is pretty black and white, since there is no FAQ to confuse things, however I think the same applies for his other powers.

a) Karandras has Move through Cover (and Stealth and Infiltrate)
b) unit 'x' does not have Move through Cover and the FAQ ruling means that Karandras does not give it to them, but at no point does he himself lose the ability
c) however since Move through Cover simply requires a single model in the unit having it, the fact that Karandras does not give them the ability doesn't matter, the power still effects him which is enough

Well, when you say it like that it sure makes sense.

So, Karandras can infiltrate a 20 strong gaurdian squad with conceallock, making them fearless and having a 4+ cover save. Not bad. That squad is 430 points though but it'd be damn near impossible to shift by shooting, especially if you can get a fortune on them somehow.

PsycicSpaceElf wrote:
The Stealth for Karandras seems to be the lone exception to this rule as there are no other Pheonix Lords with rules listed in their personal profile that are transferable to squad mates while not being an exarch power.

Baharroth gets hit and run...which confers to a squad ...It's just a shame he's useless...

Exarch powers don't transfer - but the neither the codex or the FAQ mention USR's on characters.

As a random note, we can also stick Karandras with guardians in ruins with 4+ cover...and watch it turn into a 3+.

And to add to Happyjew's unit (which is for me, one of the best units eldar can field)

If you really want a unit that is hard to budge:
Eldrad (or Fortuneseer)
Karandras
10-man Wraithguard unit led by a Spiritseer with Conceal.
Add an Allied Corsair Prince - gets a shatterfield and the current consensus* seems to be that if you add a character to an eldar unit then it remains an eldar unit, which is fulfilling the terms of fortune. So you can have a re-rollable 2++ on the corsair prince and stick him at the front. The downside is this gets on to the table for almost 950pts. I'm also not sure I agree with it - it seems to be obeying the wording of 'you can only cast fortune on an eldar unit' but not the spirit.

Lol - then add a FW wraithseer - it can give the wraithguard a 4+ FNP too. Only upto about 1200pts for one unit...

*In my local meta

Well the wraithseer is a different unit, so not QUITE 1200 for one unit, its for 2....

Only if you're going to be all accurate

But yes It's 2 unit's. With one hard to kill unit and the other being used to buff it further.
I meant taking the WS just to buff the wraithguard makes the cost properly exorbitant.