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 Lordhat wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


Otherwise, it's not generally advisable.

I advised it all the time when I worked at the FLGS. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to stretch your dollar's worth in this hobby.

Shhh.

His way of doing it is best.

 g0atsticks wrote:

davou wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple?

Then he gets to play with the regular Space Marine codex.

Do try to keep up, darling.

Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Otherwise, it's not generally advisable darling.

I disagree, a space marine is no different to another space marine from a different codex. Just the color. As long as you have the correct codex, you can play your green and pink zebra striped space marines as any faction.

Haha, I was being sarcastic. Trying to poke fun at kaldor and this that and everything else


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Ok well I think what your getting at is that with each new codex you get the C:SM+1 effect. Surely there is something that Codex marines should get that other non codex marines shouldn't have access to

Unique special characters are aplenty in the SM codex. As are the changes to force org that comes with those characters, and the modifications of individual special rules.

IMO, the biggest strength in a C:SM list is that you can build a list that's vastly less suseptible to (rock paper scissors) compared to the other codices. You sacrifice a bit of punch to do it, but I enjoy playing lists that forfiet a higher win/loss ratio in favor of a few less crushing defeats.

C:SM really shines with its HQs abilities. I envy the Vulkan and Pedro, and the others that aren't popping out to me. I wish I could give my guys outflank master, crafted weapons, etc...

Look if your worried about DA being SM +1 look at the history soon you will have all our stuff.

Also if you want to use the DA codex to represent a first company Ultras.... COOL
IF you want to use BA to represent 8th company. Cool
SM for 10th company?. heck yeah

It your stuff you do what you want.

Welcome to Codex Creep. I think Codex Space Marines has it better than most.

Think about all those poor xenos codexes that sit in obscurity and thank your lucky stars.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
the latest codex is always the strongest and I see DA as no different in that respect...

Blatantly not true. IG and Space Wolves dominated 5th edition right from the start all the way up to Codex: Grey Knights and then only grudgingly made some room for GK and later Necrons at their power level.

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

Yes. It's actually funny that taking a generic captain on a bike is worlds better than the White Scars HQ both in terms of cost and effectiveness. I was a bit surprised about it when I was building my SM biker army. It just seems like the named HQs should be better than "building" them yourself; not the other way around.

clively wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

Yes. It's actually funny that taking a generic captain on a bike is worlds better than the White Scars HQ both in terms of cost and effectiveness. There's no real reason to take the White Scars HQ.

Except the part where Khan lets everyone outflank...

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Well, except for the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want with your models as long as you follow the printed rules and WYSIWYG forms, and there is absolutely no rule that forces you to paint an army a certain way based on a codex. In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

Once again I will bring up old examples of using Deathwing rules to represent the Ultramarines 1st company fighting in their Terminator armor (or any other Chapter at all that has a Veteran company built as such), or using Ravenwing rules to represent an assault company on bikes.

Now, I might lean less towards the use of certain special units that stereotypically belong to a Codex chapter or their successors, but that's my personal preference if I was playing them, not anyone else's or any rule in existence.

And nobody had better try bringing up anything about "Deathwing" in a black and yellow Scythes of the Emperor paint scheme being equal to paper cutouts glued to bases! And a Yellow Space Wolf is not equal to an Ork being used as an Eldar Guardian!

Wow this thread kinda exploded. Theres a lot of people with some very committed views.

My biggest upset was honestly all the cool SM units that I can't use in my army, at least not yet. I enjoy the modelling more than the gaming most of the time, and my win loss record shows that. However, it is a bit frustrating sometimes when people roll up with all their shiny toys.

Didn't want to start a pity party either, but i think it's too late to push off the flames comin' off some people.
If only I had enough money to but random cool units AND have an army...

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Says who? Some random purist on the Internet? There's nothing prohibiting a person from painting their army the way they like. GW actually encourages it. How can you tell there are surely no blue BA successor chapters? That's right, you can't.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

To all the people thinking that BA have to pay for anything, I give you this exercise- build an army using any army builder, let's say 1500 points of whatever you fancy. Take the same units in a BA list, an SM list and an SW list. (where possible, so do take Tacticals in BA and Grey Hunters in SW, and if you wanted a 5 man Terminator squad take a SW Wolf Guard squad and equip it with the same items - I know that Power Fists/ Storm Bolters cost more on Wolf Guard than they do on Vanilla Terminators, but bear with me).

What you will see is the following:

- BA can take the exact same amount of units and models + enough Sanguinary Priests to actually get FNP on everyone. That's because they have cheaper units.
- Even when using overpriced units like that sucky setup on Wolf Guard, you still manage to have the same amount of units and models on Wolves as you on Vanilla marines - they make up those points on Long Fangs, for example. Again, cheaper units.
- In both armies You have extra options, like Counter Attack on most units and better special options for GH in SW, or FNP/Furious Charge, Better Jump packs, Assault troops in BA.
- You get that ALL on top of what C:SM already has. You only lose Combat Tactics. That's the only major loss for those 2 codici.
- You lose Thunderfire Cannons, Bike Captains, Masters of the Forge and Ironclad Dreads.
- You get a plethora of different, sometimes better, units. (Furioso Dreads, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads in Troops)

From a competitive point of view, there is little to no reason to play C;SM over any other SM variant. BA are the easiest choice for a disgruntled C:SM player, with SW requiring more customization and model work.

I wonder how will DA relate to C:SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Well, except for the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want with your models as long as you follow the printed rules and WYSIWYG forms, and there is absolutely no rule that forces you to paint an army a certain way based on a codex. In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

Once again I will bring up old examples of using Deathwing rules to represent the Ultramarines 1st company fighting in their Terminator armor (or any other Chapter at all that has a Veteran company built as such), or using Ravenwing rules to represent an assault company on bikes.

Now, I might lean less towards the use of certain special units that stereotypically belong to a Codex chapter or their successors, but that's my personal preference if I was playing them, not anyone else's or any rule in existence.

And nobody had better try bringing up anything about "Deathwing" in a black and yellow Scythes of the Emperor paint scheme being equal to paper cutouts glued to bases! And a Yellow Space Wolf is not equal to an Ork being used as an Eldar Guardian!

Well, absolutely. They're your models. You can put little schlongs on them all if you want. You can wear a T-shirt saying "Islam is a Lie, Homosexuality is a sin and Abortion is Murder" to games night if you want. But they're both terrible ideas and should be avoided. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Not to say I'm equating wearing a shirt like that with using blue marines as red marines. I'm just using it as an example to highlight the fact that just because you can do a thing doesn't mean that doing it is a good idea or even an acceptable idea.

And a yellow space wolf is not different in any way to an ork masquerading as an eldar. Generally speaking, anyway. Rule of cool applies as always. If you've got a cool custom chapter, and you really think the best codex to use is X codex, then go nuts. If you really want to represent an unorthodox army structure, and X codex is the best way to do it, then go nuts.

But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

 AtariAssasin wrote:

My biggest upset was honestly all the cool SM units that I can't use in my army, at least not yet. I enjoy the modelling more than the gaming most of the time, and my win loss record shows that. However, it is a bit frustrating sometimes when people roll up with all their shiny toys.

This is the biggest annoyance for me to. It is one thing for different chapters to have slightly different rules, but it bugs me that now they've (again) started to limit certain vehicles to certain chapters. I just want to be able to get any model I happen to like and use it my army. I do not understand how this makes sense for marketing perspective either. I'd get new Nephilim fighter and probably a Storm Raven too if I could use them alongside with my existing Storm Talon.

. I just want to be able to get any model I happen to like and use it my army.

Use allies?

It'd be perfectly legal to use one of the Dark Angels flyers with another Codex Marine army, as an ally model.

Kaldor, franky, your position is just silly. Sometimes different rules than GW originally intended make more sense for representing an army. Think for example jump pack enthusiasts such as Raven Guard. Blood Angels codex has much better support for jump pack based warfare, so why not use that book instead? Or now as the new DA codex is upon us, how about the Ravenwing as White Scars? Sure, vanilla dex has decent support for bike armies, but I bet Ravenwing will be way better. For starters they can get bike riding veterans, something that is impossible with C:SM, yet a thing White Scars would certainly have. And as for Deathwing, certainly other chapters besides DA occassionally wield forces composed entirly of terminators. You just can't do that with vanilla dex.

And of course then there are all the DIY chapters that that may have absolutely any sort of organisational strucures an backgounds. Rules are a tool for representing stuff in the game, not a straitjacket.

Of course, it is annoying we even have to do this. Having separate books creates all sorts of odd links between different rules that limit the usability of the codex. Why can't we have an expert biker army that has Storm Talons? Why can't we have independent apotecharies in all terminator force? I would vastly prefer one big marine codex with flexible rules. You could choose traits or doctrines to represent different chapters.

 Alkasyn wrote:


I wonder how will DA relate to C:SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.

I'll take some of that please All I only have 10 Tactical terminators anyways.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It'd be perfectly legal to use one of the Dark Angels flyers with another Codex Marine army, as an ally model.

But not if it is not painted in DA colours if we ask Kaldor...

I know this is possible, but then I have to take the troops and HQ as well. Might still work with DA, I'll have to see. With Storm Raven this is limiting, as it can only carry stuff from BA codex.

I expect we'll see the new DA flyer being used as a stand-in for Storm Talons, seeing as it looks more like something that can fly.

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/498488.page#5148906

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

He can't. I met a person in RL that had the same views as Kaldor. He owns over $10,000 in 40k models. Everyone else thinks its ok and would rather see painted models than a grey plastic force again.

 Kaldor wrote:
But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

Kaldor, has it occurred to you that your in the minority opinion here?

As I mentioned earlier, I ran an Ultramarine army as Space Wolves for about 6 months at the end of 6th. I even brought them to tournaments. Do you know how many people had a problem with it? Zero. Absolutely none at all.

Heck I even got compliments from people saying how well I managed to get the feel of the ultramarines wrapped into the ruleset of the wolves (through use of banners, a command squad model with dual swords for MotW, etc)

I happen to like the ultramarine color scheme and the Greek feel to the models, yet I like the ruleset of the wolves. To you, I might be a tool, but to everyone else I played with I was a guy who liked a specific look of one army and the playstyle of another.

And exalt, labmouse

One man's tool is another man's...never mind.

I feel sorry for my poor Iron Hands, they a founding chapter with zero love recently. I have bought numerous extra iron Hand fine cast parts and other similar bionics from 3rd party stockists and not even the old bionics equipment upgrade still exists for characters.

Kaldor, I used to think that all people that played flavor of the month (or flavor of a couple of years ago-I play BA now) were tools, except for the fact that GW couldn't care less about some armies (*coughBTcough*), and since I suck at painting, unpainted gets me more money if I try and recover my investment

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

Kaldor, has it occurred to you that your in the minority opinion here?

As I mentioned earlier, I ran an Ultramarine army as Space Wolves for about 6 months at the end of 6th. I even brought them to tournaments. Do you know how many people had a problem with it? Zero. Absolutely none at all.

There's been polls on here about it before, it's hardly a minority opinion. Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.

I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I am seriously pondering whether to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using the Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about, is innovation and imagination!