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 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

Weirdly this now makes me want to see a mix of the helldrake and stormturkey. just for...reasons. And science.

 funkyh wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

The only way the game was meant to be played is with models purchase from Games Workshop.

And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like? Sorry, I read a lot of fluff before I got into this hobby and I found an army that I liked. Yes I changed from a 1st founding to a secondary founding but still the same dex. I know you are poking fun but I wish some people would take pride in their chapter. A buddy of mine plays white scars. He doesn't have dreads or devs because of Fluff. I tried to follow the fluff for my Flesh tearers by only having 1 baal for the entire army. My buddy that plays scars isn't going to jump on the new DA dex just because they have cool rules for bikes and speeders, Scars and DA don't get along in fluff and he doesn't like them. I guess my meta is fluff and others have a skittles meta. As long as you guys are having fun, great.

-Signed a disgruntled and prideful fluff player

P.S. I like the look of scars more than ravenwing bikers. Besides Wards botchery of the fluff, the C:SM book is a great book to play out of. Someone earlier said reverting back to C:SM is okay and I agree. Power armor is power armor... But a blood angel isn't a space wolf isn't a grey knight and so on...

(@melissia, I enjoyed your thread on the ranking of the dexes. A long 1 be it, but good nonetheless.)

I take pride in my army, I just feel its stupid that the most technologically savvy legion of traiotr marines can't figure out how use a damn razorback or use storm bolters, makes no sense. And my army is not rainbow colored, as long as my models are painted to a good degree and all properly modeled why should it matter. Matter of fact I fully tend to build a few new chaos bikers and run the new raven wing list.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

This what I'm talking about, when BA can wreck more in cqc than psycho Khornate marines you got a problem. I had an opponent who was playing Thousand Sons using the GK codex, I had no problem with this, at least his models looked better than most of the actually GK players.

To the OP...

I dont view the SM dex as weakened or watered down, or indeed himped with missing all the new shinies...stormtalons are default dex only as I recall?

I am a long time IG player, I have dabbled with BA and my first army ever was DA, however my most recent project which is just only getting underway is a red scorpions army which is codex default.

Admittedly it will be a forge world converted army however it will use the SM rules. Now it may not be the best list out, but I will be putting in lots of nice fluffy stuff whihc are not available elsewhere, certainly not in the big sm names such as wolves, BA or DA and certainly not GK.

I will have access to multiple bikes, landspeeders, stormtalons, cheap TH/SS termies, and I wont have to have hooded monks (how can the DA knights even see their opponents?), blood thirsty vampire marines, or manga marines (GK).

Like any army choice, its a choice. There will be other cool funky stuff that other armies can use, and thats why the latest edition gave us the wonderful allies option. I genuinely believe the allies thing is a great addition once you remove the ott power gamers. It lets you add the new shinies if you absolutely must have them, or remain true to fluff form if you want a purist list.

If you feel punished for using Codex Marines, try using Codex Tau Empire, you'll be begging to have your Codex Marines back.

As for the other debate going on here, if you want to use your Marines as BT, SW, DA, BA or whatever, knock yourself out. I like the idea of using Ravenwing as White Scars or BA as Raven Guard, they make sense from a fluff point of view.

I'm less keen on using Ultramarines with the SW rules, as to me, Ultramarines are the poster boy for strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, and that's what the Vanilla SM 'dex represents. (Though I could see using the Macragge type situation)

I also don't like the idea of using SW or BA rules for CSM's, just because they are a different race. I wouldn't like using Dark Eldar to represent Craftworld Eldar either.

Of course to my mind the last two paragraphs really only matter in Tourney environments, in casual or pick-up games, ignore it.

That's my perspective as someone who's primary two armies would be Tau and Salamanders, if i hadn't sold off my models back in late 4th/early 5th. I intend to restart both, and maybe a small force of Thousand Sons also.

Also, does anyone have 12 spare Crisis Suit boxes and a pile of rare earth magnets that they would like to send me?

 funkyh wrote:
And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like?

Games Workshop does not care what you paint your models as, as long as you paint your models using Games Workshop approved paints.

 Melissia wrote:

 funkyh wrote:
And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like?

Games Workshop does not care what you paint your models as, as long as you paint your models using Games Workshop approved paints.

And if you use all the GW paints, its either a rainbow or a really nasty poopy color. But Its a new chapter to run under C:SM

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm less keen on using Ultramarines with the SW rules, as to me, Ultramarines are the poster boy for strict adherence to the Codex Astartes

When you think about it, it actually makes perfect sense. People seem to confuse the Codex Astartes a lot. What Leman Russ was railing against was cutting his Legion down to a chapter, and reorganizing it in a company structure. Being "Codex Adherent" just means you organize your Chapter into ten companies of 100 Marines, and use the guidelines for training and recruitment the Codex prescribes. It really has nothing to do with how a tabletop army would be selected.

On the other hand, the battle tactics of the Codex Astartes were originally, before Graham McNeill got his grubby hands on them, supposed to be incredibly flexible and genius. Using Codex: Space Wolves could work for Ultramarines (aside from maybe TWC) just to show an Ultramarines commander adjusting his strategy for a given situation. Maybe the Tactical Squads are equipping two special weapons instead of a special and a heavy because of terrain dictating a closer range fight. Suddenly the Grey Hunters are just a Tactical Squad. A Long Fangs squad is a Devastator combat squad. Etc.

Obviously codex hopping is never going to be 100% fluff compliant because each codex has a theme or trope designed to make it different from the others. But there are very few combinations that just plain don't work. Blood Angels and Space Wolves work just perfectly for people trying to run a less Chaos, more renegade Chaos Marines army.

Insert standard Games Workshop rant here. I love their miniatures and the settings they've created for their games, but I dislike their pricing, business practices, and rules. As someone's who's played their games since 1995, I feel that the former conditions have improved over time, while the latter have worsened, and I believe it's going to cost them their leading position in the miniatures market before too long.

Whenever I make my 1st Company army (in TDA) it's going to be a Deathwing army. My 6th Company will probably be a Ravenwing army, too. Then again, I might just run with a Vanilla Marine one. Less wings that way.

Kind of Hard to do a Sternguard/Vanguard list, since Tactical Marines make poor replacements for Sternguard or Vanguards.

But, I think Vanilla Marines are fine. Don't have any of the neat toys, but the best way to beat TDA is still a Demolisher Cannon and Null Zone, so...

(Give him first turn + reserve your Vindicators = Happy Fun time)

Crazyterran wrote:
Whenever I make my 1st Company army (in TDA) it's going to be a Deathwing army. My 6th Company will probably be a Ravenwing army, too. Then again, I might just run with a Vanilla Marine one. Less wings that way.

Kind of Hard to do a Sternguard/Vanguard list, since Tactical Marines make poor replacements for Sternguard or Vanguards.

But, I think Vanilla Marines are fine. Don't have any of the neat toys, but the best way to beat TDA is still a Demolisher Cannon and Null Zone, so...

(Give him first turn + reserve your Vindicators = Happy Fun time)

Just do it like any other fluffy vet list: Pedro, sternies and 2x scout units?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Obviously codex hopping is never going to be 100% fluff compliant because each codex has a theme or trope designed to make it different from the others. But there are very few combinations that just plain don't work. Blood Angels and Space Wolves work just perfectly for people trying to run a less Chaos, more renegade Chaos Marines army.

Honestly, they're all Marines to me, so I don't particularly care that much what color they're painted...

Now, if the player adds a hand-made cloak to their captain, and adds sheathed longswords to their grey hunters or something? That's much more interesting than what color the puppies are painted.

I wouldn't care if they're space wolf models or not if they went through that kind of effort.

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

How is it *stupid* specifically. You may not like it, but that doesn't equate to stupidity. When I sit down at a game all that matters to me is that my opponent's models are armed/equipped correctly for identification and what codex their list is out of. Beyond that it just doesn't matter. The marines can be hot pink and I don't care if they are using the BA, SW, BT, DA or CSM or C:SM codex AS LONG AS they are following the rules and list specifically for the codex they are using. This goes to the other extreme as well that isn't just using the basic models and painting them differently, but someone who came up with a different idea for their "chaos marines" and are using the space wolves codex for them and have converted up things like chaos marines on the backs of massive mutated chaos hounds that count as thunderwolf cavalry.

What is intended beyond a codex other than it providing the rules to create and use your army on the table? There isn't some magic requirement that the space wolf codex is only intended to ONLY EVER represent space wolf armies painted wolf grey and using specific space wolf minis with all the fancy wolf pelts and other accoutrements. That is an expectation you put on the book yourself. In fact GW's position has long been to use any marine codex that you feel best represents *your* chapter. I am sure in GW's perfect world any time someone plays a different marine codex they would *definitely* buy a completely new army, but in the real world having 5+ space marine armies all complete, but painted in different colors to be able to use each codex separately is wasteful, foolish and is where the stupidity really comes in.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 funkyh wrote:
A buddy of mine plays white scars. He doesn't have dreads or devs because of Fluff. I tried to follow the fluff for my Flesh tearers by only having 1 baal for the entire army. My buddy that plays scars isn't going to jump on the new DA dex just because they have cool rules for bikes and speeders, Scars and DA don't get along in fluff and he doesn't like them. I guess my meta is fluff and others have a skittles meta. As long as you guys are having fun, great.

Bully to you for building your force based on the fluff. I build story driven armies all the time, BUT that isn't the only way to build armies.

Also I have to say that is really amusing that you think people using whatever codex they want to represent their marines are being stupid, but you pat your buddy on the back for using *in game* fluff reasons for not making a useful *out of game* decision to use the new DA codex because it has decent rules for bike and speeder focused forces. *That* is foolishly self limiting in my book. What does he think if he makes a White Scars list using the DA book he is somehow being a traitor to the White Scars?

Skriker

Last I checked I was still entitled to my opinion right? I think that not having a direction for your army is silly and even stupid. Having a swiss army knife of an army lacks a direction and uses any and all marine dex seems pointless to me. I'd be fine for it being a C:SM but having it switch from BA SW GK CSM BT or DA from day to day is silly... Yes it would be more interesting to play but personally, I'd forget half the rules and it wouldn't be fun for me or my opponent. It was tough for me to try to play my 1k sons for the first time w/ all the psychic powers and what not. I was using the words stupid and silly because thats how it is in my meta.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean everyone else isn't allowed to dispute it.

Go play Codex: BT and you will learn the true meaning of punishment.

 funkyh wrote:
Last I checked I was still entitled to my opinion right? I think that not having a direction for your army is silly and even stupid. Having a swiss army knife of an army lacks a direction and uses any and all marine dex seems pointless to me. I'd be fine for it being a C:SM but having it switch from BA SW GK CSM BT or DA from day to day is silly... Yes it would be more interesting to play but personally, I'd forget half the rules and it wouldn't be fun for me or my opponent. It was tough for me to try to play my 1k sons for the first time w/ all the psychic powers and what not. I was using the words stupid and silly because thats how it is in my meta.

Everyone can have an opinion. Sadly yours isn't particularly convincing and you fail to give any arguments why it should be.

Stupid has its own scale and is up for argument. I know people who think that this hobby we all share is stupid due to the cost and they are just plastic toys. I think buying all the codexes to fill a whim to play all the marines is stupid.. I fear this has gotten off topic and should be moved to another topic...

OT: Codex Space Marines is the most flexible of all the codices and it opens enough doors to find what niche of other armies you'd like to try. If you like the assault troops, play BA. If you like cheese and psykers, play GK. If you likes bikes speeders and termies play DA. I apologize if I rubbed anyone wrong for how my opinions, meta, and personal choices to play fluffy have upset you all...

 BryllCream wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[
You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

They lose Combat Tactics and gain army-wide FNP and Furious Charge - a clear gain.

The SM charectors are alright, but Blood Angels get a MC (Strength 10 and jump pack) with an infantry profile. Not so bad in 6th but in 5th was a major headache for many armies.

Thunderfire cannons - yeah, BA lose out on them. Meh.

Cheap TH/SS Terminators - vanilla marines get these? BA terminators get Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and a 1/6 chance of +1 attack.

Master of the Forge - man if I had a penny for every time I heard a BA player say "I wish I could take a master of the forge"...


BA aren't particularly over-powered in 6th, in fact they will blow away like a fart in the wind. But they are definitely Space Marines++

Trading a massively improved Combat Tactics for a chance to spread around the nerfed Furious Charge and Feel No Pain is not an upgrade.

Mephiston is kind of a joke in 6th now that he can't touch anyone with a 2+ save.

Thunderfire cannons are one of the hidden gems of the Space Marine Codex, especially with the meta shifting from light mech to masses of infantry.

Feel No Pain and Furious Charge both got nerfed and Blood Angels have a1/6 chance at trading And They Shall Know No Fear (which also got a lot better) for Fearless (which is a downgrade) and Furious Charge (which doesn't matter when you're using a Thunder Hammer). They also don't have access to Null Zone, one of the best psychic powers in the game.

Losing out on the Master of the Forge is a "meh" since Blood Angels can take Furiosos as Elites and Rifleman dreads as Heavies anyway, though Conversion Beamers are still amazing in the right situation.

All in all, Blood Angels got screwed by the new rules and I tend to think (having actually played the army, and having fielded them using the Codex:SM rules) that they're a side grade at best and are in most cases worse than Codex Marines.

So I discovered something interesting about regular Space Marine Bikes.

GW has recently gotten rid of the sets of 3 regular biker marines, the ones that used to come with the three metal torsos. With the release of the Dark Angels push, they have instead put out a lot of dark angels bikes, and gotten rid of the regular sets. You can still get the the bikes but only individually.

You can check for yourselves at the website.
COMING SOON
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
FAST
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440275a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

These ones are esily useable in a marine army. Swap the shoulder pad and dont put on the back feather-thing. The front actually looks better in the RW battleforce kit than on the regular bikes

For myself, the SM codex need a good update to create diversity for the Vanilla players. Not for "hardware" but for rules like they did in the 4ed.

When I look back at the FW Badab War, all the chapters had a caracter that give the little spark to have other thing that Ultramarine. Just changing the combat tactic for something else is all we want.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So I discovered something interesting about regular Space Marine Bikes.

GW has recently gotten rid of the sets of 3 regular biker marines, the ones that used to come with the three metal torsos. With the release of the Dark Angels push, they have instead put out a lot of dark angels bikes, and gotten rid of the regular sets. You can still get the the bikes but only individually.

You can check for yourselves at the website.
COMING SOON
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
FAST
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440275a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

Welcome to the situation that Battle Sisters have been in for years now.

My condolences.

I think The basic codex is very playable and offers me things I miss when I play with the other codices. The base codex needs a bit of a revamp but not a huge change. I think Sterngaurd are still the best infantry unit in the game. I think the C:SM codex is very versatile and I default to it when I build my armies. I of course like shooty armies so I have a blood angels codex but have never fielded an army using the rules.


(as far as the OT conversation)

 funkyh wrote:
Stupid has its own scale and is up for argument. I know people who think that this hobby we all share is stupid due to the cost and they are just plastic toys. I think buying all the codexes to fill a whim to play all the marines is stupid.. I fear this has gotten off topic and should be moved to another topic...

OT: Codex Space Marines is the most flexible of all the codices and it opens enough doors to find what niche of other armies you'd like to try. If you like the assault troops, play BA. If you like cheese and psykers, play GK. If you likes bikes speeders and termies play DA. I apologize if I rubbed anyone wrong for how my opinions, meta, and personal choices to play fluffy have upset you all...

No reason to apologize mate. You are definitely allowed to have your opinion as you've stated. Just as others are allowed to disagree with you. However you play the game that works for you is perfectly acceptable if it makes you and your regular opponents happy then go for it. Just when you start throwing around words like how something is stupid, don't surprised when people jump in on it. It is one thing to dislike the way others play the game, but it is another to come across as thinking those who play differently from you are stupid. That is a whole different approach that kind of gets people's hackles up.

Usually people do pick their prefered flavor of marines and stick with it, but the system is set up to allow them to really do whatever they want to and if it works for them, and they have fun and their regular opponents aren't bothered by it, then more power to them too.

Skriker