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First off, I do feel a little ripped off by the latest codex we have. Some stuff got cheaper, others stayed the same but with the same ridiculous points cost. Others lost rules or abilities that made their points worth it but LOOK we got 2 new machines and 26 point raptors... Just not doing it for me.

I was playing a Death Guard army up until a few months into the drop of 6th edition, and when the new codex came out my once powerful warriors were starting to struggle more and more against the kind of enemies they could easily walk over. I am really at a loss about what to do from here and as much as I love Chaos, I am half tempted to throw in the towel all together with them because I can't see them being fluffy/fun and slightly competitive anymore.

I know that there is a learning curve with a new codex, but every list I write and play just seems to fall short of what other codexes can do with very similar units thanks to the lack of useful special rules.

So I'm asking for any help in terms of list building, even if its cheesey, just so catch a glimpse of what to expect if I want a chance to hold out anymore.

I do want to play death guard, and in 5th, was not having any trouble going toe-to-toe with hordes of orks, but now the old classics just aren't doing it. Helbrutes without a 5+ invul despite being a demon heavy engine and losing smoke launchers is disappointing. Defilers cost going up to a level that is actually beyond comprehension as I never found them a threat ever when facing or using them...

I feel like I'm just ranting, so I'll leave it here. I just want to know what needs to change, do I need 3 land raiders full of terminators now to do well? Do I need 3 heldrakes? What is the secret to performing even moderately with this army now?

TL;DR - Veteran Chaos player needs help with list writing.

Well heres my advice:

Don't include anything with AV 12
Don't buy any champion upgrades
Don't buy any gifts of chaos
Don't buy any upgrades that aren't 100% nessesary e.g. veterans of the long war or extra close combat weapons for marines.
Don't buy any psychers
Don't buy any daemon princes

Take a chaos lord of nurgle on a bike (T6 - no insta death) with blight grenades and the burning brand of skalathras + Biker friends
Take small units of plague marines for troops choices with 1 or 2 melta guns. Give them each a rhino
Maybe take a unit of 35 pistol cultists with 3 flamers and no upgrades
Take 2 units of havoks with autocannons and put them behind aegis

Take a helldrake if your opponent doesn't have much AA (or his own fliers e.g. dakka jets)

While I agree with the majority of what wtnind said, I have no idea why he recommended you should take no psykers.

The Chaos Sorcerer is an incredibly useful force multiplier, and when taken as Nurgle (which seems to be your thing), can really benefit your army by sending a ton of maledictions your enemy's way.

Also, psyker defense is always handy, and the Sorcerer gives you at least a small bit with the bonus to Deny the Witch. It's not much, but it's something.

wtnind wrote:Well heres my advice:

Don't include anything with AV 12
Don't buy any champion upgrades
Don't buy any gifts of chaos
Don't buy any upgrades that aren't 100% nessesary e.g. veterans of the long war or extra close combat weapons for marines.
Don't buy any psychers
Don't buy any daemon princes

Take a chaos lord of nurgle on a bike (T6 - no insta death) with blight grenades and the burning brand of skalathras + Biker friends
Take small units of plague marines for troops choices with 1 or 2 melta guns. Give them each a rhino
Maybe take a unit of 35 pistol cultists with 3 flamers and no upgrades
Take 2 units of havoks with autocannons and put them behind aegis

Take a helldrake if your opponent doesn't have much AA (or his own fliers e.g. dakka jets)

I want to try and stick to a fluffy list, which might be why I'm sucking so bad. Bikes and fast attack choices don't really fit the nurgle style. Cultists will be a new addition. And rhinos actually I cannot stress enough how useless I've found them in every single situation. You can't even charge out of them if they're a smoking crater. Absolutely useless in all regards and a free kill point every game.
Havocs with autocannons is something I wanted to spam since the codex came out, one of the only things I like which was overdue.
I really dislike that, just like the old codex, we're getting forced to take only specific units if we want to remain even lightly challenging to play against.

Shelegelah wrote:While I agree with the majority of what wtnind said, I have no idea why he recommended you should take no psykers.

The Chaos Sorcerer is an incredibly useful force multiplier, and when taken as Nurgle (which seems to be your thing), can really benefit your army by sending a ton of maledictions your enemy's way.

Also, psyker defense is always handy, and the Sorcerer gives you at least a small bit with the bonus to Deny the Witch. It's not much, but it's something.

I do agree with most of what he's said. I won't be taking dreads ever again, and no rhinos either. Thinking of a land raider list with cultists and some bits and bobs really.
Sorcerers of nurgle have some pretty sweet spells, and typhus is the master of it also, but just haven't had it count as much in the games I've had.

I used to run a termicide list with plenty of plague marines in rhinos, rush up and let loose all in one go on the enemy and used to have a decent effect, but now that terminators don't have anything to accurately scatter I can't place so much faith in that, and when using combi meltas every inch closer counts.

I was running with predators and dreads in 5th and they were dominating, picking off targets early in game with 7 twin linked lascannons and 4 that we're plus a multi melta from another dread and all the marine squads with meltas, it did very well, I struggled a bit against hordes, but plague marines toughness let them hold their own. Thanks to glancing rules though dreads aren't doing anywhere near as good, rhinos are free giveaways.

Now I've been using a list similar to this:
typhus
4 termies with combis and 2 fists mark of nurgle

3x7 plague marine squads 2 melta 1 flamer
2 vindicators

brute
brute
havocs 4 autocannons

Just roughly 1400 points, maybe a 4th squad of plague marines with plasma and it doesnt seem to be performing quite as well as the same thing would have in the old edition.

What about vindicators? I've had some success with them of late, and the large st10 ap2 blast has proved very good on many occasions, plus they can hit more than one vehicle in a shot if put too close together.

Rhinos usefulness depends a bit on the enemies you play against and the armies they play and if you roll for random scenarios or just play killpoints.

Rhinos are a liability in killpoint missions but in victory point games they can help. For 35 points you get something which blocks charges, provides cover, tank shocks. If you need your guys up the table then set the rhino up out of LOS or behind a land raider and then use them to zoom 18 inches up the board. If you park a rhino on an ojbective then they have to blow up the rhino before they can start shooting the guys in them, even if they do you get a nice crater on the objective to give you 5+ cover saves.

Psychic powers are I say a liability. Sure there is a 1/3 chance of getting malediction and a 1/3 chance of that blocking charges but for every time it works theres 3 times it doesn't and you end up wtih some crappy witchfire power on a BS 4 sorcerer who has to be within 12 inches to do anything with it.

Find me a psychic power that is a better ranged attack than the burning brand of skalathrax? The brand always hits and always kills marines on a 4+ It's awesome!

Regarding the comment that we are forced to play specific units it's just not true. Heres a list of good units:

CSM - with no upgrades but swapping bolter for close combat weapon they are cheap and effective

Cultists - 3 attacks on the charge and dirt cheap, or take typhus and park units of 10 on objectives out of LOS if possible

Chosen - 5 meltaguns and a troops choice (with abadon)? awesome. The key is not to overload the wargear, if you want lightning claws take 1 not 2 and save 15 points. Mark of khorne makes these awesome in a landraider

Terminators - good and cheap, put 4 in a land raider (with a lord) or deep strike cheap 5 man unit with no upgrades to force people off objectives. Just don't drop them infront of a gunline and expect them to survive, these guys are tactical.

Mutilators - these are ok but only in a land raider, space is at a premium and if you want the most of your 230 point transport then why not take 2 wounds per terminator slot. The max unit size of 3 means if you want a fully loaded transport though you need to take awarpsmith or dark apostle too.

Plague marines - blight grenades means no +1 A when being charged, T5 and fearless. Add free free rerolls to wound and you can see why they are 10 points more than a basic marine.

Noise marines - 3 shot salvo? yes please. How about close combat instead? Take a 5 man squad with a doom siren (S5 AP 3 flamer ) and watch him melt marine faces. These guys are incredible they cost 2 more points than a CSM with mark of slaanesh and they can take the awesome flamer and if that's as far as you go then your still winning

Rhino - it's not a land raider, don't try to make it into one. Any time you dont want your guys getting shot jump into a rhino and zoom off. Want to block a charge put it infront of the horde. It's tactical but it's not for assaulting out of or even really getting your guys into assault range. But hey its 35 points.

Chaos bikers - awesome, T5 super fast T6 with nurgle, 7 points more than a CSM. Fantastic

Chaos spawn T6 with mark of nurgle and 3 wounds for 36 points? I'll take that in units of 5 they cant even be instagibbed by railguns if they are nurgle.

Raptors - 4 points more than a CSM and they get jump packs and fear. They are a good choice just dont upgrade them too much and set them up to make use of cover.

Heldrake - give it the flamer and it mows down marines and vector strikes every turn. Great choice. Just dont give it the crappy cannons

Havocks - awesome, give them autocannons and watch them mow down hordes and aircrat alike. cheap and effective, put them behind an aegis and potentailly buy a couple of extra havocs to soak up wounds before you start loosing autocannons.

Obliterators - still good but quite expensive, get them veterans and mark of nurgle/tzeentch depending on if you plan to get them into some good cover or march up wrecking face.

Land Raider - get's a squad up for a turn 2 charge and then provides mobile cover / shelter etc too. Expensive but good if you plan to out melee your opponent. If your opponent is heavily into melee you might not want it and instead let them come to you.

Vindicator - AV 13 which meaning someone has to throw about 4 lascannons your way before you blow up. Set it up behind the land raider and then move it 6 inches and start dropping plates.

Predator dirt cheap at 95 points (heavy bolters + autocannons) take 3 of these guys and a land raider dedicated transport then your opponent will have to ignore those rhinos that are dropping your guys off on objectives.

Crap:
Possesed
Helbrute
Berserkers - buy plague marines instead, just as good in combat and better at shooting
Thousand sons - very tacitcal chocice and very expensive but can be ok depending on the situation.
Warp talons
Defiler/Forge fiend /Mauler fiend - expensive and AV 12, only take them if your playing somebody who cant glance them to death or blow them up with AP 1 weapons

So 17 awesome units and 8 crap ones. Sounds like a good range of choices to me.

Out of all the powers I think that Nurgle came off about the best in the new Dex. If you are gonna run Rhino's I would suggest adding Dirge Casters on them, just for some added protection against being shot to frak when you charge....

Other than that I don't see what the problem is? I'm loving the new dex, its definately making me feel the love for the latest edition of 40k

wtnind wrote:Rhinos usefulness depends a bit on the enemies you play against and the armies they play and if you roll for random scenarios or just play killpoints.

Rhinos are a liability in killpoint missions but in victory point games they can help. For 35 points you get something which blocks charges, provides cover, tank shocks. If you need your guys up the table then set the rhino up out of LOS or behind a land raider and then use them to zoom 18 inches up the board. If you park a rhino on an ojbective then they have to blow up the rhino before they can start shooting the guys in them, even if they do you get a nice crater on the objective to give you 5+ cover saves.

Psychic powers are I say a liability. Sure there is a 1/3 chance of getting malediction and a 1/3 chance of that blocking charges but for every time it works theres 3 times it doesn't and you end up wtih some crappy witchfire power on a BS 4 sorcerer who has to be within 12 inches to do anything with it.

Find me a psychic power that is a better ranged attack than the burning brand of skalathrax? The brand always hits and always kills marines on a 4+ It's awesome!

Regarding the comment that we are forced to play specific units it's just not true. Heres a list of good units:

CSM - with no upgrades but swapping bolter for close combat weapon they are cheap and effective

Cultists - 3 attacks on the charge and dirt cheap, or take typhus and park units of 10 on objectives out of LOS if possible

Chosen - 5 meltaguns and a troops choice (with abadon)? awesome. The key is not to overload the wargear, if you want lightning claws take 1 not 2 and save 15 points. Mark of khorne makes these awesome in a landraider

Terminators - good and cheap, put 4 in a land raider (with a lord) or deep strike cheap 5 man unit with no upgrades to force people off objectives. Just don't drop them infront of a gunline and expect them to survive, these guys are tactical.

Mutilators - these are ok but only in a land raider, space is at a premium and if you want the most of your 230 point transport then why not take 2 wounds per terminator slot. The max unit size of 3 means if you want a fully loaded transport though you need to take awarpsmith or dark apostle too.

Plague marines - blight grenades means no +1 A when being charged, T5 and fearless. Add free free rerolls to wound and you can see why they are 10 points more than a basic marine.

Noise marines - 3 shot salvo? yes please. How about close combat instead? Take a 5 man squad with a doom siren (S5 AP 3 flamer ) and watch him melt marine faces. These guys are incredible they cost 2 more points than a CSM with mark of slaanesh and they can take the awesome flamer and if that's as far as you go then your still winning

Rhino - it's not a land raider, don't try to make it into one. Any time you dont want your guys getting shot jump into a rhino and zoom off. Want to block a charge put it infront of the horde. It's tactical but it's not for assaulting out of or even really getting your guys into assault range. But hey its 35 points.

Just had to cut this quote out early for a minute. Because I wish I could witness games where a rhino is not just a free kill to anythin that bothers to point it's way. Rhinos will NEVER last more than the 2nd turn in our gaming group, and so I can't ever see them just hanging around to be used as an escape route.

wtnind wrote:
Chaos bikers - awesome, T5 super fast T6 with nurgle, 7 points more than a CSM. Fantastic

Chaos spawn T6 with mark of nurgle and 3 wounds for 36 points? I'll take that in units of 5 they cant even be instagibbed by railguns if they are nurgle.

Raptors - 4 points more than a CSM and they get jump packs and fear. They are a good choice just dont upgrade them too much and set them up to make use of cover.

Heldrake - give it the flamer and it mows down marines and vector strikes every turn. Great choice. Just dont give it the crappy cannons

Havocks - awesome, give them autocannons and watch them mow down hordes and aircrat alike. cheap and effective, put them behind an aegis and potentailly buy a couple of extra havocs to soak up wounds before you start loosing autocannons.

Obliterators - still good but quite expensive, get them veterans and mark of nurgle/tzeentch depending on if you plan to get them into some good cover or march up wrecking face.

Land Raider - get's a squad up for a turn 2 charge and then provides mobile cover / shelter etc too. Expensive but good if you plan to out melee your opponent. If your opponent is heavily into melee you might not want it and instead let them come to you.

Vindicator - AV 13 which meaning someone has to throw about 4 lascannons your way before you blow up. Set it up behind the land raider and then move it 6 inches and start dropping plates.

Predator dirt cheap at 95 points (heavy bolters + autocannons) take 3 of these guys and a land raider dedicated transport then your opponent will have to ignore those rhinos that are dropping your guys off on objectives.

Crap:
Possesed
Helbrute
Berserkers - buy plague marines instead, just as good in combat and better at shooting
Thousand sons - very tacitcal chocice and very expensive but can be ok depending on the situation.
Warp talons
Defiler/Forge fiend /Mauler fiend - expensive and AV 12, only take them if your playing somebody who cant glance them to death or blow them up with AP 1 weapons

So 17 awesome units and 8 crap ones. Sounds like a good range of choices to me.

You went to a lot of trouble writing this, and a lot of it agree with. I really do. But my army just isn't working no matter what I'm trying. I'm leaning towards more of a land raider themed idea, I still do love my vindicators though, and typhus with the 3 powers is a legendary kicker of the buns. But perhaps a smaller chaos nurgle lord with the brand of skallathrax (if it doesn't require a mark to take) just to give the marines on foot a lot more anti marine/horde firepower at a decent range.

ghpoobah wrote:Out of all the powers I think that Nurgle came off about the best in the new Dex. If you are gonna run Rhino's I would suggest adding Dirge Casters on them, just for some added protection against being shot to frak when you charge....

Other than that I don't see what the problem is? I'm loving the new dex, its definately making me feel the love for the latest edition of 40k

I don't think a dirge caster on a rhino would ever make its points back. Rhino rolls up, marines hop out. Shoot, if they are not killed in the enemy turn, THEN you can charge, but if the rhino and marines are still standing by the end of that... maybe your opponent skipped a game turn.

I've been looking over the codex today and last night I received an order of obliterators and other stuff I actually forgot about, so I'm hoping they can be put to good use.

The list I came up with was as follows

Typhus
Land raider + dirge caster
4 terminators MoN 2 fists and 2 claw pairs, plus 2 combi-plas

20 cultist 2 flamers
20 cultist 2 flamers
5 plague marines +2 melta
fist champion +rhino
5 plague marines +2 melta
fist champion +rhino

2 Vindicators

4 bikes +2 flamers
meltabomb on champ and Mon
4 bikes +2 flamers
meltabomb on champ and Mon

3 Obliterators +Mon

Comes up to 1771 if my math is correct, and our group is usually playing 1850 games, so I'm unsure of what to do with the remaining points. Any ideas? Is this list looking closer to something legit?

I'm trying to go all out on the "providing heavy targets so the rhinos roll up unscathed" approach but I really am unsure about the points. I would of also considered scrapping something, maybe one squad of bikers for another plague squad? Any C and C let me know?

A few things about your list:

You might want to have Veterans of the lost war on your Obliterators for the + Leadership.(you don't want them to run)

And if you take Typhus might aswell make the cultists Zombies Fearless and FNP great objective holders and/or humand flesh shield.

I would probably lose the fists on your plague champions they will probably die before they can use them in any challange maybe try Poweraxe.(a bit cheaper) or just get more Plague marines.

And i would change one Plague marine squad to 2x Plasmagun.

 Demic25 wrote:
A few things about your list:

You might want to have Veterans of the lost war on your Obliterators for the + Leadership.(you don't want them to run)

And if you take Typhus might aswell make the cultists Zombies Fearless and FNP great objective holders and/or humand flesh shield.

I would probably lose the fists on your plague champions they will probably die before they can use them in any challange maybe try Poweraxe.(a bit cheaper) or just get more Plague marines.

And i would change one Plague marine squad to 2x Plasmagun.

I actually meant to take zombies, I totally forgot about the wargear, I just remember they could take flamers and went nuts with it ha. I love flamers on my guard and so I wanted to use that on chaos, but I'll surely remove that and change em up for zombies.
I feel that the extra ten points for the power the fist offers is well worth it, since an axe and fist strike at the same initiative, I'd rather have double strength over +1. But perhaps you're right, even when used against the right kind of enemies, the power fist champ doesn't seem to swing very well and misses anyway... I'll seriously consider the change.

With the points taken away from the flamers, that leaves me enough for maybe one last squad of plague marines actually, would that work out? I'll write up a revised list today.