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So naturally I was sitting here recovering from a surgery and I got an evil idea in my head.... lol either way quick question:

So if you take necrons as allies, and none of which can be blood brothers. Can you use the mind in the machine power to shoot one of your own allied vehicles which are considered to be enemy? Can that vehicle shoot of its own accord after he finished with it?

Mind in the Machine at the start of his shooting phase and choose an enemy vehicle. On roll of 3+, Anrakyr can shoot with it. Vehicle shoots as remained stationary, neglecting any crew shaken or stunned results but can't fire any destroyed weapons nor it can alter it's facing. After theese attacks are resolved enemy gains the control of the vehicle back.

Side note: What rule states you only shoot once per shooting phase? Just having trouble finding it atm...

 Tomb King wrote:
Side note: What rule states you only shoot once per shooting phase? Just having trouble finding it atm...

Well you can not select the same unit twice in one shooting phase as per P. 12 "Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase."

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Side note: What rule states you only shoot once per shooting phase? Just having trouble finding it atm...

Well you can not select the same unit twice in one shooting phase as per P. 12 "Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps I to 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase."

I dont see anywhere in what you posted that you cant pick the same unit more then once and repeat the sequence- just a raw issue there.

The part that says Select another in the quote "Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another..."

The unit that just made its shooting attacks is not another unit, it is the same unit.

P. 12 also says "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

That and P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next."

Therefore you can not backtrack to a unit because you need to complete all the firing by that unit before you move on to the next.

Not to seem contrary, but, IIRC, you cannot target allied uints, even if they ARE (technically) enemy units. Trying to get off 10 executioner shots or up to 6 manticore blasts in one turn with The Traveller, badassed as it might be, wouldn't be legal by this reasoning... it wouldn't have much in the way of interaction with the shooting rules. Otherwise it could allow you to functionally ignore shaken or stunned results on a 3+ with 1 vehicle a turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The part that says Select another in the quote "Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another..."

The unit that just made its shooting attacks is not another unit, it is the same unit.

P. 12 also says "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

That and P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next."

Therefore you can not backtrack to a unit because you need to complete all the firing by that unit before you move on to the next.

I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dronze wrote:
Not to seem contrary, but, IIRC, you cannot target allied uints, even if they ARE (technically) enemy units. Trying to get off 10 executioner shots or up to 6 manticore blasts in one turn with The Traveller, badassed as it might be, wouldn't be legal by this reasoning... it wouldn't have much in the way of interaction with the shooting rules. Otherwise it could allow you to functionally ignore shaken or stunned results on a 3+ with 1 vehicle a turn.

The only requirement is that its an enemy vehicle within the 18".

Mind in the Machine says you "...immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit..." . I don't think you have permission to shoot with any individual unit more than once per shooting phase phase so in most cases that would be a pointless waste of the power; as if you shot with it using Anakyrs' ability you would not be able to shoot it again normally that turn and vice-versa.

Also it (debatably) returns control of the effected vehicle over to your opponent once you are done; do you really want to give them a free vehicle just to try to pull some shenanigans with it?


Apart from the above though, it does seem like there is no specific rule preventing one from 'taking over' an 'enemy' allied vehicle with the power as long as the other conditions are met. (LOS to Anakyr mainly).

Dronze wrote:
Not to seem contrary, but, IIRC, you cannot target allied units, even if they ARE (technically) enemy units.

That is only correct for charging, shooting, targeting with psychic powers ans having blast markers or templates placed over them. P. 112

It says nothing about special rules like mind in the machine.

 Tomb King wrote:

I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

If you re-pick A, you have clearly not completed all the firing with that unit.

If you are trying to shoot with that unit again, even though you moved onto a different unit. (Note the underlined below).

P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

I cant see how this wouldnt work, but I would leave it for games where you and your opponant are good friends and are having a game of 'out-cheese the cheese'.

Also, the wording of that is similar to Imotekh's Lightning strikes, as that says roll for each enemy unit. Would you roll for your allied units?

DeathReaper wrote:

Dronze wrote:
Not to seem contrary, but, IIRC, you cannot target allied units, even if they ARE (technically) enemy units.

That is only correct for charging, shooting, targeting with psychic powers ans having blast markers or templates placed over them. P. 112

It says nothing about special rules like mind in the machine.

 Tomb King wrote:

I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

If you re-pick A, you have clearly not completed all the firing with that unit.

If you are trying to shoot with that unit again, even though you moved onto a different unit. (Note the underlined below).

P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

Silly RAW there is nothing to stop a unit from shooting more then one time in the shooting phase so long as they shot everything once before the next unit shoots and then they can shoot everything again.

IHateNids wrote:I cant see how this wouldnt work, but I would leave it for games where you and your opponant are good friends and are having a game of 'out-cheese the cheese'.

Also, the wording of that is similar to Imotekh's Lightning strikes, as that says roll for each enemy unit. Would you roll for your allied units?

Imotekh's lightning would strike allies that are enemies... why do you think no one runs him anymore. The question here is can I shoot it with my allied army afterwards?

Neorealist wrote:Mind in the Machine says you "...immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit..." . I don't think you have permission to shoot with any individual unit more than once per shooting phase phase so in most cases that would be a pointless waste of the power; as if you shot with it using Anakyrs' ability you would not be able to shoot it again normally that turn and vice-versa.

Also it (debatably) returns control of the effected vehicle over to your opponent once you are done; do you really want to give them a free vehicle just to try to pull some shenanigans with it?


Apart from the above though, it does seem like there is no specific rule preventing one from 'taking over' an 'enemy' allied vehicle with the power as long as the other conditions are met. (LOS to Anakyr mainly).

It returns control back over to the enemy. The enemy in question here is your allied army which would regain control. As stated above regardless of anything mind in the machine does there is nothing stopping a unit from shooting twice in this game.. But beyond that silly raw argument how would mind in the machine stop say tau from shooting there own hammerhead after he gets done with it? The power itself takes an out of sequence shooting attack from the enemy. Why cant that enemy be an ally?

 Tomb King wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

If you re-pick A, you have clearly not completed all the firing with that unit.

If you are trying to shoot with that unit again, even though you moved onto a different unit. (Note the underlined below).

P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

Silly RAW there is nothing to stop a unit from shooting more then one time in the shooting phase so long as they shot everything once before the next unit shoots and then they can shoot everything again.

Not true, as I have pointed out you would be breaking the rules of the shooting sequence, as you could not pick the same unit twice.

Page 12 states "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

The unit in question must not have fired this turn. Therefore any given unit may only be nominated to make a single shooting attack per shooting phase.

 Tomb King wrote:

IHateNids wrote:I cant see how this wouldnt work, but I would leave it for games where you and your opponant are good friends and are having a game of 'out-cheese the cheese'.

Also, the wording of that is similar to Imotekh's Lightning strikes, as that says roll for each enemy unit. Would you roll for your allied units?

I would have thought it was because night fighting got a little worse, depending on how you look at it, and everyone has realized just how lucky you have to be for that lightning to actually mean something. Not to mention the other HQ's in the list are just fantastic as well and most people have come to realize just how awesome-sauce Zahndrekh is.

Zahndrek is brilliant, even if just for giving FC to scarabs and taking Stealth away from <camping enemy shooty unit here>

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

If you re-pick A, you have clearly not completed all the firing with that unit.

If you are trying to shoot with that unit again, even though you moved onto a different unit. (Note the underlined below).

P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

Silly RAW there is nothing to stop a unit from shooting more then one time in the shooting phase so long as they shot everything once before the next unit shoots and then they can shoot everything again.

Not true, as I have pointed out you would be breaking the rules of the shooting sequence, as you could not pick the same unit twice.

Page 12 states "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

The unit in question must not have fired this turn. Therefore any given unit may only be nominated to make a single shooting attack per shooting phase.

Thank you! Glad they didnt jack that up for a raw argument.

Now the mind in the machine.. does the unit he controls count as shooting or does he since he was the one shooting the vehicle? Almost like a gun emplacement if you will..?

He is never shooting, the unit is

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He is never shooting, the unit is

On roll of 3+, Anrakyr can shoot with it.

Well since MitM says "...immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit..." you still need to follow all the rules associated with your models.

Therefore if it has not shot you could use MitM, but then you can not nominate the unit to shoot as it has already fired.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well since MitM says "...immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit..." you still need to follow all the rules associated with your models.

Therefore if it has not shot you could use MitM, but then you can not nominate the unit to shoot as it has already fired.

So the only benefit of doing it on your own unit is to ignore a shaken or stunned result?

 Tomb King wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well since MitM says "...immediately shoot with it as if it were your unit..." you still need to follow all the rules associated with your models.

Therefore if it has not shot you could use MitM, but then you can not nominate the unit to shoot as it has already fired.

So the only benefit of doing it on your own unit is to ignore a shaken or stunned result?

That sounds correct.

I guess you would only bother if you were facing an army without any vehicles.

 Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He is never shooting, the unit is

On roll of 3+, Anrakyr can shoot with it.

Which isnt the whole rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He is never shooting, the unit is

On roll of 3+, Anrakyr can shoot with it.

Which isnt the whole rule

No it is identifying the person carrying out the action.. who is shooting the vehicle? RAW Ankrakyr is!

now, thats a loophole that could be exploited if you want to piss TFG right off

 Tomb King wrote:
[quote=DeathReaper 498800 5145867 4c88678b47c696ff320c311a3a04b86c.jpg

I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

I have highlighted the portion of the rulebook that you need to re-read. I don't know how you missed this (it was even posted in this thread earlier)


Page 12 says: "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fired this turn."

Unit A has already fired this turn, and so cannot fire again after Unit B.

/thread.

Tomb King wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

If you re-pick A, you have clearly not completed all the firing with that unit.

If you are trying to shoot with that unit again, even though you moved onto a different unit. (Note the underlined below).

P.12 "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

Silly RAW there is nothing to stop a unit from shooting more then one time in the shooting phase so long as they shot everything once before the next unit shoots and then they can shoot everything again.

Not true, as I have pointed out you would be breaking the rules of the shooting sequence, as you could not pick the same unit twice.

Page 12 states "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

The unit in question must not have fired this turn. Therefore any given unit may only be nominated to make a single shooting attack per shooting phase.

Thank you! Glad they didnt jack that up for a raw argument.

Now the mind in the machine.. does the unit he controls count as shooting or does he since he was the one shooting the vehicle? Almost like a gun emplacement if you will..?

Cheesedoodler wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
[quote=DeathReaper 498800 5145867 4c88678b47c696ff320c311a3a04b86c.jpg

I was more or so saying..

Pick unit A and shoot it completely
Pick unit B and shoot it completely
Pick unit A as it is different then unit B and shoot it again.
See the point. Nothing stops you from repeating the process with just two units...

I have highlighted the portion of the rulebook that you need to re-read. I don't know how you missed this (it was even posted in this thread earlier)


Page 12 says: "1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fired this turn."

Unit A has already fired this turn, and so cannot fire again after Unit B.

/thread.

I quoted the earlier post of me recognizing that and thanking reaper for pointing it out. That was just something I missed and was curious about. The true purpose of the thread is... can mind of the machine effect allied vehicles and if/when it does would that stop the vehicle from shooting normally of its own accord later on?

 Tomb King wrote:

The true purpose of the thread is... can mind of the machine effect allied vehicles and if/when it does would that stop the vehicle from shooting normally of its own accord later on?

Answer is: Yes, MitM can affect allied vehicles. But you don't gain any advantage, as the vehicle cannot shoot twice in single shooting phase. There is also the problem of 'returning control' of the model to your opponent...

Luide wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

The true purpose of the thread is... can mind of the machine effect allied vehicles and if/when it does would that stop the vehicle from shooting normally of its own accord later on?

Answer is: Yes, MitM can affect allied vehicles. But you don't gain any advantage, as the vehicle cannot shoot twice in single shooting phase. There is also the problem of 'returning control' of the model to your opponent...

Only advantage being it ignores shaken and stunned results. And it doesn't return control to your opponent but too the enemy. The enemy in this case is your main detachment.

No, the enemy is you AND your opponent - nothing says you cannot have two enemies (in fact, they must in order to fire on your opponent)

"As if it were your own unit" is the clincher - your own unit shoots regardless of who is chosen to "shoot" it. So, not Anrakyr

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the enemy is you AND your opponent - nothing says you cannot have two enemies (in fact, they must in order to fire on your opponent)

"As if it were your own unit" is the clincher - your own unit shoots regardless of who is chosen to "shoot" it. So, not Anrakyr

Failing to see what your arguing here or its relevancy at the moment. Can you possibly rephrase?

Who you return control to. The ally MUST have 2 enemies - the alliying army and the enemy army

Who counts as having shot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Who you return control to. The ally MUST have 2 enemies - the alliying army and the enemy army

Who counts as having shot.

Thanks, the allied army has two enemies. One he is allowed to shoot and one he is not. The model is returned to its original owner after it fires.

The counting as having shot is currently undecided because no facts can point it one way or the other but it was found that the model cant shoot twice in a phase so that is good enough for me. This was all just a crazy idea thought up one afternoon either way. The only benefit that is for certain is you could remove a shaken or stunned result from a vehicle to shoot it normally.