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 Shandara wrote:

I look at people playing 15mm Flames of War and I think: sure they are good miniatures, they're painted to correct historical colours and you get tons of them cheaply, but it doesn't do 'IT' for me. You're just pushing basically infantry counters and vehicles and rolling dice.

Go even smaller and there's even less individuality.

Not all 15mm is created equally.



But i do get it. I get something different out of 28mm than I do out of 15mm.

At the very least, I'd recommend any 40k player start taking a hard look at the accessories offered by Puppet's War, Kromlech, Maxmini and other accessory manufacturers. You can get some awesome stuff at great prices that augment your existing collections rather than compete with them. Once Kromlech makes a torso to match their new scifi legionaire legs, I'll probably be making a small squad.

PhantomViper wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Eilif wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Gotta agree, the whole "I'm so heavily invested in GW, I can't start other games" is a total fallacy.

Perhaps instead of "can't start other games" maybe it could be "I have no reason to start other games" . After all, if you like the games, already have a ton of GW that you've painted over the years, and people you like playing with, why would you switch?

Well, you don't have to switch from one at the cost of another, just play both!

But if your current game already gives you everything you wan't, then what reason do you have to try another one?

Something new? Something Fresh? Variety?

"I like curry, therefore I am only going eat curry from now etc etc"

After 20 years with GW, its all getting a bit stale...............

For you and me and various other people, yes, that might be true. Because GW doesn't offer us what we are looking for in mini-wargaming anymore.

But you have to concede that that reasoning might not apply to some other people. For some people GW still gives them all that they wan't from our hobby and there is much to be said about human resistance to change coupled with the comfort of familiar rules / models / universe.

Well said! I personally have not invested in other miniature wargames for the above reasons. Also some people may not have the time and money in investing into more games systems so stick with one. I am not starting any new games because I have spent so much time on 40k and still enjoying it. Also some people may prefer to buy GW miniatures over other companies.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Very true. I like to sometimes throw down a large 100-150 model army onto the table and blow the crap out of things, sometimes I want to play an elite strike force of 8-10 people going in with a set of defined objectives.

GW only provides the living rules for one of these things nowadays.

There are a number of living rulesets for this sort of combat.

Aren't the Necromunda rules still available from GW? Not to mention that there are rules for killteam still available in Battle Missions.

For me it's mostly the fact that the time I'm able to be at the LGS, it's mostly 40k players with maybe one or two tables of FoW and a table of either Malifaux or Infinity.

I'd love to play my Warmachine army (and my DZC skirmish pack), but I guarantee when I get there Friday night, the only stuff coming out of the cases will be my Vulkan Marines.

For the record, there is a pretty good sized Warmahordes crowd there, but they play on a different night (one I'm not able to get there for), and DZC is a game system where (locally) everybody is buying the minis and painting them, but nobody seems to be playing it.

Find out the smallest DZC game size you can play and schedule to finish up painting and get it on the table with someone.

Although, even though I'm not a massive skirmish fan, those Judge Dredd and Batman minis are highly tempting!

While I've picked up some models for Infinity and Warmachine and the rules for Dust, I haven't played any due to lack of players nearby. So I'm still enjoying 40k, just as much as when I started.

One of the things I love about 40k though is the creativity it allows and the depth it has. No other wargame (excluding historicals) has, to my knowledge, such extensive background written about it. There's so much to explore in the game that it'll never get old. The armies are easy to customize, something not found with the aforementioned Infinity, Warmahordes, and Dust. And the whole genericness of the rules set is great too, it makes it easy to make your own units and scenarios, or use "counts as" and cool conversions. It's really a great game.

 DarkCorsair wrote:

One of the things I love about 40k though is the creativity it allows and the depth it has. No other wargame (excluding historicals) has, too my knowledge, such extensive background written about it.

I also like the extent of 40k fluff which is one of the more expansive fantasy universes out there, but Battletech has a cannon of such depth (and a universe that actually progresses) that it makes 40k look like Dr. Seuss.

Of course then you might want to play Battletech and that could only lead to pain and frustration.

Contrary to popular belief, it is very easy to get lots of enjoyment out of miniature gaming that is not produced by GW.

Or even using actual GW models with rulesets not produced by GW in any way.

I mostly play 40k, but I did pick up way more than I should for Relik Knights on that Kickstarter a few months back. I went there because the games are smaller, quicker, and by getting a few models from that game, I have something VERY different than 40k models to paint. So it was for the variety factor.

I picked up some Hordes models because a friend of mine did, and has nobody to play with. So that was for pitty mostly.

I love the full army feel of 40k, and no other game has given me that yet, and if there was one, I don't know that I would want to buy a whole bunch more models to support it.

Nothing stops me playing almost excusively non-GW games .

I have no issues getting opponents for non GW games .

The argument that you are generally more likely to get a game of 40K is a valid one , but I find this a little sad if this is a main reason , and is self perpetuating .

The only other game I'm interested in is FoW but no-one in my area plays it so I just play 40k.

 DarkCorsair wrote:
The armies are easy to customize

This is literally the only thing GW games have going for them rules wise that other companies can't or won't match. I can bring the same Tyranid units in 5 different games, and every game have an army that works differently due to loadout changes (points costs notwithstanding). To get that kind of force flexibility in other games, I'd be looking at entirely different units.

This is, however, a double edged sword, because the downside to this customisability is GW's complete inability to balance things properly. Sure, in game 3, I might have taken a Crusherfex brood. In game 2, it was a Dakkafex brood and infinitely more worth its (cheaper) points cost.

In Infinity, sure, I might be dropping entirely a couple of Ghulam Infantry in order to bring an Asawira Heavy Infintry, but neither are bad choices.

So yeah, GW games have the customisability. I love them for it. I love being able to make a Grave Guard unit into either a tarpit with sword and board or a hammer with great weapons, or change a meleefex into a dakkafex. I hate them for it as well, because most of the options on units have a clear better build.

 -Loki- wrote:

 DarkCorsair wrote:
The armies are easy to customize

This is literally the only thing GW games have going for them rules wise that other companies can't or won't match. I can bring the same Tyranid units in 5 different games, and every game have an army that works differently due to loadout changes (points costs notwithstanding). To get that kind of force flexibility in other games, I'd be looking at entirely different units.

This is, however, a double edged sword, because the downside to this customisability is GW's complete inability to balance things properly. Sure, in game 3, I might have taken a Crusherfex brood. In game 2, it was a Dakkafex brood and infinitely more worth its (cheaper) points cost.

In Infinity, sure, I might be dropping entirely a couple of Ghulam Infantry in order to bring an Asawira Heavy Infintry, but neither are bad choices.

So yeah, GW games have the customisability. I love them for it. I love being able to make a Grave Guard unit into either a tarpit with sword and board or a hammer with great weapons, or change a meleefex into a dakkafex. I hate them for it as well, because most of the options on units have a clear better build.

Brushfire.

Just about every unit has several options, and the minis actually come with enough of those options to outfit your models however you'd like. It also scales from skirmish to mass battles very easily.

GW games are by far the most popular at my FLGS. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on models and not be able to find someone to play with.

 Greenizbest wrote:
I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on models and not be able to find someone to play with.

The great thing about skirmish games like Infinity and Malifaux are you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars. With Infinity, you don't even need to buy the rules!

GW's latest rounds of price increases and the general blandness of the new Chaos book means my time is better spent buying old d20 books for RPGs. I bought the new 40K starter, and had a good time painting the Chaos contents, but I find the value just isn't there anymore.

Buying an odd figure or two for a laugh just can't be justified anymore, you have to collect for an army or you don't collect at all. And the wealth and price of d20 books is so attractive, you'd be a fool not to go in on it.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 Cyporiean wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Very true. I like to sometimes throw down a large 100-150 model army onto the table and blow the crap out of things, sometimes I want to play an elite strike force of 8-10 people going in with a set of defined objectives.

GW only provides the living rules for one of these things nowadays.

There are a number of living rulesets for this sort of combat.

I know, thats why I play them. Infinity tonight, followed by a round robin of 600 point 40K throwdown games!

 pretre wrote:
Aren't the Necromunda rules still available from GW? Not to mention that there are rules for killteam still available in Battle Missions.

Necro is still available, and as much as I love it and still play, its a pretty dead system. The only people that play necro are the people that played necro, if you know what I mean?
Dunno about battle missions, I'll have to borrow a copy and have a look. Reminds me, I must get pics of my hive table up on the terrain subforum as its grown to stupidly massive levels now............

 DarkCorsair wrote:
One of the things I love about 40k though is the creativity it allows and the depth it has. No other wargame (excluding historicals) has, to my knowledge, such extensive background written about it. There's so much to explore in the game that it'll never get old.

The Fantasy Flight RPG's scratch that itch for me these days, much more so than the recent codexes did. With the codexes, they have the problem that the lore has to be related to an army, which were almost all detailed years ago, such that new books either restate a lot of familiar stuff, or retcon in new stuff (see: Necrons).

 Elemental wrote:

 DarkCorsair wrote:
One of the things I love about 40k though is the creativity it allows and the depth it has. No other wargame (excluding historicals) has, to my knowledge, such extensive background written about it. There's so much to explore in the game that it'll never get old.

The Fantasy Flight RPG's scratch that itch for me these days, much more so than the recent codexes did. With the codexes, they have the problem that the lore has to be related to an army, which were almost all detailed years ago, such that new books either restate a lot of familiar stuff, or retcon in new stuff (see: Necrons).

Never been an RPG player, but I keep hearing this about them. Whats the best one to start with? People are muttering Deathwatch locally.

NOT a SM focussed one.

The GM will run out of elephants to throw at them.

Start with one of the human-centric ones, and after a few sessions, then throw in a SM antagonist (this will show them the relative power levels) when they are ready for it (level wise).

"My girlfriend would murder me if I bought any more models" doesn't appear to be an option

The only wargamers I know play 40k (all 2 of them), and I have enough 40k stuff as it is without adding other collections to it

 chromedog wrote:
NOT a SM focussed one.

The GM will run out of elephants to throw at them.

Start with one of the human-centric ones, and after a few sessions, then throw in a SM antagonist (this will show them the relative power levels) when they are ready for it (level wise).

Just remembered that I bought a copy of Dark Heresy many years ago (god knows, must have been an impulse) and it must be in the house somewhere.

I think so much of it comes down to how lucky you are with playing communities, nearby clubs and FLGS, that kind of thing.

I'm extremely fortunate to have both club and FLGS nearby that have a healthy variety of games, from various manufacturers. Usually, regardless of the game you want to play, you can find opponents fairly easily. Of course the Internet has been a wonderful tool for this kind of thing - I'm convinced the rise of Infinity wouldn't have been possible without it for instance, and nowadays I think the 'I can't find anyone else to play' is really not a valid excuse in the vast majority of cases.

With regards to GW games, speaking personally I tend to see a lot more younger players try that one first. But, after they have had a few months of seeing some of the large, toy-like and unpainted flyers (that seem to populate 40k games now) scooting around the table, there attention is drawn elsewhere - two painted FoW armies fighting amongst a small town, fully painted Warmahordes or even WFB armies tend to drag them away. Although even the latter seems to be losing players nowadays, I don't think the consensus is that it's a terribly well written ruleset.

Fluff, I find that only 40k has the most interesting, in depth, and easily attainable fluff out there.
Compared to even fantasy or any of the other stuff thats more difficult to attain, 40k is a click of the button away. I just find that the fluff really fuels my fire, know what i mean.

Interesting poll

Funny how so many people seem to have a love hate relationship with GW. Its very much like someone with an abusive partner, the kind of person who says silly things "I know he or she loves me", as they cover a bruise.

They do make damn fine toys though don't they. Something to watch out for, is they will be having another price hike shortly, so get ready for the next wave of moaning topics....

The question I have is "If there was another scifi game available that offered the range of game sizes 40k supports, with a free download of the rules available and some very cool background (tons of fluff) how many people would give it a go?"

ghpoobah wrote:

Funny how so many people seem to have a love hate relationship with GW. Its very much like someone with an abusive partner, the kind of person who says silly things "I know he or she loves me", as they cover a bruise.

They do make damn fine toys though don't they. Something to watch out for, is they will be having another price hike shortly, so get ready for the next wave of moaning topics....

Well I like the models, their customer service has been stellar, their products are widely available. The only thing I don't like about the company is their prices, I wouldn't call them an abusive partner, just one that hogs the credit card!

I didn't see an option for me so I've ticked other.

Firstly, I do think pricing at the moment is a little high but it's not at a point where I won't buy stuff, I'll just use my local independent for big orders so I get 10-20% off retail. In many respects pricing hasn't yet forced me to other manufacturers or systems

Secondly, I do play other systems but most of the other systems I play cost similar amounts for larger games to GW gaming. A follow on from the point above I guess..

Thirdly, I am always wary of new or other systems due to a number of reasons (some of why have been mentioned above)
a) Will there be a good sized playerbase to get regular games accounting for schedule clashes, illness, work, time etc (My gaming time is limited, I play once a week at a local club.)
b) Is the company likely to give enough factions/models to give a varied playstyle?
c) Does the game have true longevity or is it more flash in the pan with interest likely to peak and drop quickly (hard to predict this one)

Fourthly, historical gaming is an entirely different kettle of fish (imo). Napoleonics are often massively cheaper but the quality is in line with the pricing.

Finally I am part of the problem as are most of us, I suspect. We feel that the models and rules should be cheaper yet we still buy them, and the third party add-on kits and the resin bases because essentially the hobby is worth it to us and as most successful businesses know, what something is worth very much relies on how much someone will pay for it.

LP

 legopirate wrote:

Fourthly, historical gaming is an entirely different kettle of fish (imo). Napoleonics are often massively cheaper but the quality is in line with the pricing.

LOL. You do know that you can get Napoleonics sculpted by GW's best sculptors, the Perrys right?



The guy on the left is sad because you think he's a bad sculpt and he only costs £1.50 and is in metal.

The other sculptors out there seem to be doing a pretty good job as well:



These guys are looking grim because they just realized that people are paying way more than the 42 pence each they cost.for no real difference in quality.