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I have a question about older versions of the Dark Angels Codex:

I have a buddy and we mostly play in 4th/5th edition, because with two kids, he frankly has no money or effort to spend on updating his very large 40K collection to 6th edition, and because, hey, we just plain like to use some of the nostalgically fun rules from those previous editions (Vehicle Design Rules, fringe-type forces from Chapter Approved, Space Wolves 13th company from the Armageddon codex, etc).

I have a question though for the older DA players. If I pick one up online, do the earlier DA codices (primarily the 4th and 5th compatible one - I'm absolutely sure the 2nd ed one does as even the vanilla codex does that) allow easy access to play Ravenwing and/or Deathwatch forces?

I haven't ever dealt in Dark Angels other than to know their fluff. But I see some ways to make a quite cheap Deathwing force (though probably painted as a 1st Company from a different Chapter), both as a unique new army that's quicker to paint than the normal ones with large numbers, and just to have a Space Marine army that's not the standard power-armored variant.

In the 4th edition DA-codex you had to pick special characters to unlock Deathwing/Ravenwing as Troops. In the case of the Deathwing it was Belial who gets a model in the new wave but had multiple weapon options in the old dex (TH/SS and dual LC not just the Sword and the SB).

I thought i remembered that - at least along the lines of the Master of the Ravenwing - but I figured I should check for the Deathwing.

Another question? Did Deathwing Terminators ever have alternative weapons options like the Plasma Cannon from the new kit, or is that a new innovation? I know thay have always been the "plasma marines" but I thought only in normal codex fashions.

(Mainly because a Devastator Plasma Cannon is a much cheaper conversion to a squad made from Dark Vengeance Terminators- keeping something like new Command Squad box free for other things).

This prospective army probably wont be deathwatch at all, but a combo of bits from Space Wolves Termis and the tabards/feathers from the Deathwing Termis to evoke something along a "Celtic" feel like the Ultramarines are somewhat Roman-esque.

I have the older DA codex. The Deathwing Terminators did not have access to plasma weaponry. They could take a Heavy Flamer, a Cyclone Missile Launcher, or an Assault Cannon for additional points.

If your buddy has a large 40k collection it is very possable he would only need to get a 6th edition rulebook and an updated codex to continue playing.

You will find that once your army has reached a certain size(any army) that you eventually will need to purchase nothing new aside from the rulebook. Like my GKs. When the new codex dropped, I only ended up buying 2 boxes of PAGKs, Crowe, and a Dreadknight. I already had all the basic troops I needed.

The same is probably true for your friend. He may only need to buy one or two new boxes plus the codex. Thats quite affordable even with GWs high prices.

Well that's a small bummer by itself, because that option looks very cool on the new terminators- though in strictly friendly games obviously it wouldn't be hard to give them that option at the price of a plasma cannon from a devastator squad, at a slightly increased points cost if anything.

Mostly I wonder as I see a great opportunity to make a (somewhat) cost effective force using a single box of the new DW Command Squad, with squads of Black Reach Terminators and Dark Vengeance Terminators for much cheaper filler squads, and spread unused bits from the Command box to those to eliminate the identical model syndrome you'd otherwise get.

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If your buddy has a large 40k collection it is very possable he would only need to get a 6th edition rulebook and an updated codex to continue playing.

You will find that once your army has reached a certain size(any army) that you eventually will need to purchase nothing new aside from the rulebook. Like my GKs. When the new codex dropped, I only ended up buying 2 boxes of PAGKs, Crowe, and a Dreadknight. I already had all the basic troops I needed.

The same is probably true for your friend. He may only need to buy one or two new boxes plus the codex. That's quite affordable even with GWs high prices.

I totally understand where you are coming from, but with very little hope for FLGS gaming (read, crappy, sparse local 40k community with low local store support) beyond the scope of our personal friendly games, both of us are of the mindset that a very expensive 6th edition rulebook, (even were it one copy being shared), several new codexes (I have at least 4-5 armies that would need new codexes, he has at least two that would need replaced), the cost is far better served getting a completely new army that can be easily played alongside what we already have.

I mean crap, especially for me to play with what I have in my collection with current rules, (I was a big gamer in 2nd and 3rd/4th edition but not much other than painting and modelling for fun since, so I am horrendously out of date with printed material) it would be, off the top of my head:

-6th edition rulebook
-WD Codex that is hard to get (legally) for my Sisters of Battle
-Space Wolves so I can still play my Thirteenth Company army in the least, but face it, not really the original "Thirteenth Company coolness".
-Space Marines Codex
-Newcrons to replace Oldcrons codex
-Legion of The Damned get demoted from using Cursed Founding chapter Approved army rules to Vanilla Marines painted in flames
-Kroot Mercenaries army can't really be played anymore and I spent a lot of modelling time on it
-demote my Deathwatch squad to Sternguard

versus

-Easy opportunity to play everything as I own them with no additional cost or effort, and any new vehicles I like for armies I have I can use VDR rules to make legal enough to matter for the friendly games we are playing.
-Spend 100 bucks for enough models to have a Deathwing army, and spend about 20 bucks on the older codex from Amazon, if that.

Now, I'm absolutely sure I'm exaggerating some, and there's wiggle room with updating to 6e and it doesn't have to be done all at once, but I have never been of a mindset that playing an older edition is any worse or less fun than it was while playing it back when it was shiny and new, as long as it's with friends who think that way too.

I like your attitude. As a Dark Angel player myself, I have to warn you that the older DA codex was somewhat underpowered competitively, but I think for your purposes would be a fun fluffy alternative to the other armies you have. I have a copy of the codex and would be happy to answer any questions you have via PM.

Thanks for the help.

I actually think after crunching the numbers, and buying at reasonable discounts, I can get the new Command Squad, Dark Vengeance squad, and an Assault on Black Reach squad for under 90 dollars, which coupled with already having the metal Terminator Captain, and a current random plastic Terminator (from way back during the White Dwarf "free Termi and Ork Nob promo" in buildup for Black Reach) would give me 17 terminators in three squads.

I even have a unpainted Land Raider (and a second from an existing army in the form of a Crusader if I paint them as Ultramarines) waiting to be cleaned of all it's plastic Chaos icons from many years back, so no 80 dollar tanks for this army!

Other than Terminator Squads, what is the normal effective and fluffy anti-tank equipment for the Deathwatch, besides the lascannons a Landraider brings with it? Lascannon & ML dreadnoughts???

Even more rambling, the current models can go back even as far as 2nd edition, because back then Apothecaries and Company Standard Bearers were characters, who as such could take Terminator armor and equipment, and even the vanilla codex let Terminators be chosen as troops.

When you compare the two, 3rd & 4th codex' the 3rd is way better. Tell your buddy to use that one. Though it had to be used with the SM codex. 3rd ed DA codex with 4th ed SM codex was awsome for deathwing armies. Termies could have 2 heavy weapons per squad and take drop pods as transports. You also only had to take an Captain in TA to play deathwing no need for a special character. Another nice feature was that terminators could be taken in every slot troops, heavy, fast, elite very fun for big games. The 4th ed SM codex also allowed termies to purchase upgrades like tank hunter and furious charge. So if you guys are playing an older ed then I would do it that way.

Interesting......I'll look into that. Especially as it only takes the 3ed codex, which can be had for cheap, which is the opposite of 6ed, in which the Rulebook and codex to play Deathwing would quite possibly cost more than the army..........

I'm assuming the Third Edition codex is this one?

Yep, that's the third ed codex. You need Codex: Space Marines to use it though, since it's one of those little pamphlet codices that are wafer-thin.

Yeah that's the one. If you are using an older ed that is the one to go with, just remember you need Codex Space marines to gowith it. Either 3rd or 4th one will do. The 3rd ed DA book only has points and stats for named Characters, HQ, Deathwing terminators, and Ravenwing bikes.It will tell you to look in codex marines for every thing else. If I remember correctly in the codex all you had to do was pay 5 points to make your squad leaders stubborn.

That's no problem. Not only do I have the 3rd ed codex from playing my Ultramarines, I also have the Chapter Approved Annual that changed some of the things in the Dark Angels codex. It's what I use to field my Kroot Merc and Legion of the Damned armies, as well as VDR rules.

Your buddy should find that combo very competitive. In fact you may not thank me after you play him Back in the day when I ran my Deathwing from it the only armies I ever had trouble with was ork/nid hordes and Chaos Tzeetch/Khorn (lowsey chain axes ). It was a blast to 4-6 squads of terminators down in drop pods and blaze away with 2 heavy weapons per squad. I hope our new codex will be as fun. Though back them necrons could be a problem too, C'Tan cut through termies really well back then. However you could pepper them with crack missiles and take them down if given enough time.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I thought i remembered that - at least along the lines of the Master of the Ravenwing - but I figured I should check for the Deathwing.

Another question? Did Deathwing Terminators ever have alternative weapons options like the Plasma Cannon from the new kit, or is that a new innovation? I know thay have always been the "plasma marines" but I thought only in normal codex fashions.

(Mainly because a Devastator Plasma Cannon is a much cheaper conversion to a squad made from Dark Vengeance Terminators- keeping something like new Command Squad box free for other things).

This prospective army probably wont be deathwatch at all, but a combo of bits from Space Wolves Termis and the tabards/feathers from the Deathwing Termis to evoke something along a "Celtic" feel like the Ultramarines are somewhat Roman-esque.

Previous codex DA terminators had the same heavy weapon options as all the other terminators out there: Assault cannon, heavy flamer and cyclone missile launcher. The difference in the DA deathwing terminators is that you could combine ranged and hand-to-hand terminators in the same 5 man squad while in most of the other marine books you could either shoot or had a bunch of melee weapons instead.

The plasma cannon termie is a completely new addition for the updated DA codex. Since all the other heavy weapon options are likely to still be available I expect that even if buying the new deathwing box you'll be able to make up squads of previous DA termies just fine.

Skriker

Stupid me just remembered I have all the Blood Angels from Space Hulk, which would give me a Librarian and 10 further terminators. It'd be alot of removal of BA iconography, but give me a total of 28 terminators.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Stupid me just remembered I have all the Blood Angels from Space Hulk, which would give me a Librarian and 10 further terminators. It'd be alot of removal of BA iconography, but give me a total of 28 terminators.

Those guys are awsome how do you forget about them?

I have seen them converted a lot, it should not be too hard. You will have a nive start there.

Those guys are awsome how do you forget about them?

I honestly don't know, lol. Especially as besides 11 more terminators (I'm not sure if I'll use the awkwardly-posed one that's kneeling down ripping up decking with the powerfist) they add an assault cannon, heavy flamer, Librarian, and a counts-as Belial to the mix.


Upon looking them over again though, I pondered about the effort that would be required to convert all the blood drops and chalices off the models, and decided to actually incorporate that imagery into the army alongside the Deathwing sword iconography.

Thanks for everybody's ongoing help. I know how odd it is lately to ask about information that would allow me to play older editions, rather than the latest 6th ed gossip, but hey, it seems to me that it'd be a huge shame not to use all that material I paid for, even if back then codexes were only 14.99.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Those guys are awsome how do you forget about them?

I honestly don't know, lol. Especially as besides 11 more terminators (I'm not sure if I'll use the awkwardly-posed one that's kneeling down ripping up decking with the powerfist) they add an assault cannon, heavy flamer, Librarian, and a counts-as Belial to the mix.

Sounds like a cool project, you can always look into converting that kneeling termie to be crushing a model from one of your usual opponent forces into the ground with his powerfist. At one point I considered buying the Space Hulk box because I loved the termies, but couldn't validate the cost *just* for the terminators themselves. Might have to look into an ebay search for the figs now...hmmmm....

Skriker

I'm thinking on putting a normal Power-Armored helmet (or definitely a Terminator helmet if I can get an unused one from the Command Squad box after my conversions) down so it looks like he kneeling to scoop up the helmet of a fallen comrade. Still a bit of an awkward pose, though.

I have also decided that the stock Spulk bases would be so hard to remove that I will do the army with 40mm Urban bases, so with some sand, the flat bases from Spulk will give the appearance of standing on broken concrete. Still deciding on the Blood Angels iconography and removal thereof. It wouldn't be so bad to blank out the shoulder pads and ignore the blood drops on the chains, but the rest is just such a huge amount of work to erase.

I thought about doing a Blood Angel Terminator force as fully half the terminators in my army will already have the iconography, and all that red would be something refreshing and different in my collection, but I'm not sure I can justify the fluff of BA doing that in my own head, even if it was a Successor Chapter (which it almost certainly would be). What would people's thoughts be on that army idea???

Old Dark Angel DW could have a heavy weapon in each 5-man squad, and mix in-power weapons, couldn't they?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Old Dark Angel DW could have a heavy weapon in each 5-man squad, and mix in-power weapons, couldn't they?

Yes. Their biggest strength was that they could include the abilities of regular terminators and melee terminators in a single squad instead of having them completely separately. That was the one reason I liked them.

Skriker

Phew. Good thing, because my model selection if I get a Dark Vengeance set, a Command Squad and the Spulk terminators gives me four heavy weapons for four squads (two assault cannons, a heavy flamer, and I'll be damned if I don't take a Plasma Cannon, even house-ruled for older edition gaming!), and at least one of the 5-man squads from Spulk will have two models with assault weapons (Lighting Claws, TH/SS), even if I don't make any more from the Command Squad.

I knew mixed squads is the makeup of the 6e Deathwing, but not the older ones, so that's a good thing to hear.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Phew. Good thing, because my model selection if I get a Dark Vengeance set, a Command Squad and the Spulk terminators gives me four heavy weapons for four squads (two assault cannons, a heavy flamer, and I'll be damned if I don't take a Plasma Cannon, even house-ruled for older edition gaming!), and at least one of the 5-man squads from Spulk will have two models with assault weapons (Lighting Claws, TH/SS), even if I don't make any more from the Command Squad.

I knew mixed squads is the makeup of the 6e Deathwing, but not the older ones, so that's a good thing to hear.

Yeah that flexibility was good. Where they lacked flexibility is that EVERY deathwing squad in the old book was topped out at 5 models only. Now they can go up to 10 in the 6th edition codex. There were a bunch of weird controls that way. Scouts could either be 5 or 10 model sized units and nothing in between. :\

Skriker